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NEWS: International Poll Reveals: World favors China over USA

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posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by xmotex


"compulsary purchase orders for your home to go to private companies" - Yep, that's pretty much how it works.


I think he was referring to the recent Supreme Court decision that local governments can seize your home and bulldoze it to create space for "economic development" projects: IE someone with connections in City Hall wants to put a Wal Mart there, you have to go. Sure, maybe your family has lived in the home for generations, but hey, there's palms that need greasing.

[edit on 6/24/05 by xmotex]


Well, OK, if that's what he meant then I'll answer that too.

First, this is NOT A NEW LAW.

It is highly uncommon and almost downright unheard of for a situation like this to reach the Supreme Court.

The most obvious and likely reason that these cases doesn't go to the Supreme Court is that huge sums of money are negotiated by the property owners and they leave happily. I didn't get into the intricacies of the case, but I'd bet my last dollar that they refused a lot of money from the business before the government got involved at all.

I know people who had a highway go through their land and they made a lot of money. Both situations involve private property in the way of so-called progress. Ultimately, there is no difference. If the community can make a valid argument for the so-called progress, then out you go. Sometimes people don't want to go, but that's how it goes.

The Supreme Court simply upheld more localized court deliberations and decisions. This is what happened with the Schiavo case in Florida regarding an individual in a vegitative state on life support. The Supreme Court did not overturn that case either. The Supreme Court ought to be wary of overturning decisions that are better decided at the state level. This helps everyone at the local level from being micro-managed by the Feds.

I'm still not sure how this instance of the Supreme Court upholding a decision made at the state level figures into the main idea of this thread. There are 295+ million people living in the states which ain't far from 1/20 of the world's entire population. (Someone check my math please.)

What I'm trying to say is, it won't keep me up at night.

Subz is again generalizing. This time based on one instance out of 295+ million. Again, this situation usually results in everyone shaking on it.

Xmotex, Wal-Mart chooses their locations and pays extremely well without local government involved in the negotiation process at all. Do you know of people forced to sell out to Wal-Mart? I doubt it. That would ALL OVER the papers.

Don't forget some towns don't want Wal-Mart and tell them to get lost.




posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 10:48 PM
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You have voted 2nd Hand Thoughts for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.



You can't imagine how many times some people around here exagerate news concerning the US so that they can keep with their bashing and mud slinging contests against the US, the US government, and Americans in general. It is good to see a new member, if you are a new member, around these boards who has common sense.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by Trent
It's their country and they can do whatever they want there as long as it doesn't interfere with the sovereignty of other nations. If the Chinese want to change their ways than that's up to them and I'm not going to judge their system because that's their job.


Wrong. When a big country such as China being an important player in the world's affairs, its system should reflect that of other countries' systems: republican or federal form of government practicing democracy, its citizens exercising and enjoying freedoms for the benefits of the society in general. Instead, China is a totalitarian system surrounded by democracies and semi-democracies.

The moment you start heaping praises and awes in China, under its totalitarian system, it is the moment you BETRAY the very principles of a free democracy and begin to FOLLOW the "wonderful" Chinese totalitarian model, the bastion of global control and tyranny of the 21st century. Yep, China is the model of a future world government: control the human resources, keep them down as much as possible by banning words such as "freedom" or "democracy" from the public mind, and impose eminent domains over regions for the good of the world.


Originally posted by Trent
The moment China starts using it's military to force it's beliefs down the throat of other nations they will not be liked, when China was practising this in the past it was condemned just like any nation would be. If your now going to tell me that America only is forcing their beliefs on others because your beliefs are better, than that is exactly what every other expanionist country has said. From Rome to Napolean France, they all claimed they were bringing a better way of life to the countries they invaded and maybe from their point of view they did but the end results proved that the other countries didn't want to be carbon copies of the invading countries. Actions anyways speak louder than words and saying China is currently more expanisonist than the US when you have invaded two countries recently and have military bases in many others will fall on deaf ears.


Why do you think we have our military bases in Central Asia and the Middle East in the first place?! We're setting ourselves up to watch and contain China for the long haul.
A very smart, long-term strategic move for the Bush administration.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 12:20 AM
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Good points oleneo.

Odium, I wanted to respond to your finding Chinese students friendlier than USAF servicemen:

I don't doubt it. Chinese students are from China. I've worked in the US with people from China. They are friendly and polite. BUT they also seem beat down and quite frankly scared a lot of the time. They don't seem to know how to stand up for themselves. The women seem to whisper all the time.

The people you encounter in the service are away from home. They are on the job. They have been trained to fight in extreme situations. A lot of them are flat out intimidating here in the US as well. They're supposed to be.

You don't have to assert yourself in the US but to succeed you definitely need to know how. In our cities you need to assert yourself to get your daily tasks done. Absolutely we're going to seem louder than the Chinese who are trained to blend in. They're probably enjoying being out of China.

I guess my point is that there are always reasons behind impressions and behavior.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 03:13 AM
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Excellent points the_oleneo, but i don't think a lot of people around here are interested in facts. They just want to keep hating the US for any reason, even if those reasons are made up.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 03:48 AM
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See the issue as follows. The PR machine is out of whack. The Greater Good argument is outdated and hardly anyone outside the US believes it anymore. Just look at Vietnam and Cambodia as an example. In today's age, western martyrs are not appreciated. China on the other hand, is struggling to come to grips with developments within and may not be handling it very well. However, it screws up it's own people in the process. No massive PR blitz like Vegas and Hollywood, thereafter having to eat humble pie. Diplomacy... For the world's leader in many things, need to go back to school for diplomacy 101.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 05:33 AM
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Wow, another Republican rent-a-troll.


"2nd Hand Thoughts"? Now you're not even trying to hide the fact that you're a Republican mouthpiece. Your mutual congratulatory love fest between the_oleneo, Muaddib and yourself is highly telling. Funny how they all come out of the woodwork when the blessed United States is copping flak for its internatioanl behaviour.

Your superior numbers around here will not sway me from expressing myself. That you can see to it that you have 3 sets of hands typing against me will also not stop me from saying what I want to say. In all honesty I've taken to ignoring the_oleneo's blatant breaches of the T&C with his abusive rhetoric.

2nd Hand Thoughts, what you described was land being compulsory purchased for "public use", highways etc. What you might have failed to noticed, but perhaps not as your kind actively seek to muddy the water, is that these private homes are being demolished for PRIVATE COMPANIES! If you cant see the difference then I'll let you know that its the difference between a library and a Starbucks.

With regards to the world at large's opinion on the United States; my assertions come from the feeling I get speaking to others from around the World. It comes from seeing "old Europe" fighting tooth and nail against the United States in the UN. The worldwide condemnation about what the US is doing to people in Guantanamo. It comes from marches in Italy against the US when Calipari was shot to death. It comes from seeing the millions of people in "coalition of the willing" countries marching against the U.S-led Iraq war. Its not based solely on this poll, it merely illustrates how the World in general (not world governments, we've seen them ignoring their peoples wills) feel about the US government.

Let fly with your concerted smear campaign



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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Just one quick question:

If China is so Anti-Democratic why do they allow so many students to come over to the U.K. and do a Politics Degree? Which the Chinese Government pays for.

1st year
Democracy: The Individual and Society
Democracy: Comparative Perspectives

2nd/3rd year
Political Thought
Politics and Government of the USA
Russia and the World
Modern British Politics
Political Communications in the Global Age
Freedom, Justice and the Community
The Political Economy of South Africa
Race, Gender and Policy
Globalisation and Democracy
Researching Politics and International Relations
Dissertation
Independent Study in Politics
- That's what they styudy along side me.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by subz
In all honesty I've taken to ignoring the_oleneo's blatant breaches of the T&C with his abusive rhetoric.


You don't have a backbone, subz. Why do you think I'd "breached" T&C when you went crying and whining to the mods about me and my "abusive rhetoric"?



Originally posted by subz
With regards to the world at large's opinion on the United States; my assertions come from the feeling I get speaking to others from around the World. It comes from seeing "old Europe" fighting tooth and nail against the United States in the UN. The worldwide condemnation about what the US is doing to people in Guantanamo. It comes from marches in Italy against the US when Calipari was shot to death. It comes from seeing the millions of people in "coalition of the willing" countries marching against the U.S-led Iraq war. Its not based solely on this poll, it merely illustrates how the World in general (not world governments, we've seen them ignoring their peoples wills) feel about the US government.


No, subz, much of the anti-American sentiments are politically-motivated protests set up by extreme anti-American groups such as ANSWER, the radical left/communists, and private financial backers such as George Soros, these people conveniently ignored the historical facts of Saddam Hussein and his dictatorial regime, supported anti-American terrorists and turned the Palestinian issue as the no. 1 important matter over Israel.

Never before such hypocrisy and ignorance (as in looking the other way) reached zenith among these anti-American groups.



[edit on 6/25/2005 by the_oleneo]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 10:58 AM
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I wonder if anyone ever considers that maybe, just maybe, it is because the current situation in the white house resembles facism more than capitalism? Wouldn't that explain the new found right? That these people really don't know themselfs what is supposed to happen in a right of centre democracy, instead depending on what others said it was?

Who, who beleives in true capitalism would go for big business? Who, who truly beleives in the beauty of capitalism, would allow foriegn interests control over national soverignty?

Adam Smith would be rolling in his grave to see what is passed of as "capitalism" these days.

If you think of it like a spectrum, and on the exterme left you have pure communism and on the exterme right you have pure capitalism - then bend it to make a "U" shape. Facism is the part that would bridge the "U", it takes the worst parts of both systems and passes it off as it's own.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 12:07 PM
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Hi Subz.

I'm not sure it matters whatever you imagine my political affiliation to be. It's true, I tend to appreciate points made by people who back up their assertions and thoughtfully contribute to discussions. I think I have pointed out enough of your faulty logic to last me a lifetime. But trying to discredit actual THOUGHT by labelling me with a party's name ain't gonna work. I know you're frustrated, but it's not that easy man.

You haven't backed up any of your statements with FACTS. You breeze right over all of the points others make on this board with actual validity. Everyone is waiting and you're choking big time.

Yes. You are the poor victim because you disagree with evil american sympathizers. If you consider someone who backs up statements with thought and facts as a "republican", then take my word for it: I've got a big cowboy hat on that says republican. .
Yee-hah!

Newsflash: There are people who aren't, as you say, obviously "republicans", on this thread. I haven't disagreed with most points on this thread because I love hearing good points. It's not that I disagree with you so much as you're full of rubbish.

You are obviously in over your head at this point. There are at least 12 things you've said that others have asked you to back up and you can't. You have now resorted to the lowest form of speech: name calling.

This is getting really old but I'll say it again: Private companies are not driving americans off of their land. The local communities and leaders voted into office by their constituents are sometimes called into court by landowners who refuse to negotiate or accept a settlement. In those cases, property owners do not always win. This goes on all the time. You just heard about it now because it is usually negotiated amicably. There is no law in the US that a private company can take anyone's land. What isn't clear about this. There is a reason our cities have superior utilities (including plumbing and drinking water), highway systems, and built on efficient grid-based systems.

The people are going to court with cases against their TOWNS. Not the PRIVATE COMPANIES.

Using a headline from the "media" without actually looking at the facts involved is choosing ignorance. I'm sure everyone, no matter what their feelings, would LOVE you to start contributing with SOMETHING. So far your posts have been big, fluffy and sad little disappointments that have now sunk to the stinking depths of name calling. You obviously have an opinion and love voicing it. Everyone has an opinion. But what we are trying to do here is have a discussion.

Subz, I hate to break it to you, but you are buying what somebody else is selling. I hereby recognize that you are officially under the control of the media.


edited to add new link: ATS OP/ED on Connecticut/Supreme Court ruling

[edit on 25-6-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 25-6-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]

[edit on 25-6-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by the_oleneo

Originally posted by Trent
It's their country and they can do whatever they want there as long as it doesn't interfere with the sovereignty of other nations. If the Chinese want to change their ways than that's up to them and I'm not going to judge their system because that's their job.


Wrong. When a big country such as China being an important player in the world's affairs, its system should reflect that of other countries' systems: republican or federal form of government practicing democracy, its citizens exercising and enjoying freedoms for the benefits of the society in general. Instead, China is a totalitarian system surrounded by democracies and semi-democracies.

The moment you start heaping praises and awes in China, under its totalitarian system, it is the moment you BETRAY the very principles of a free democracy and begin to FOLLOW the "wonderful" Chinese totalitarian model, the bastion of global control and tyranny of the 21st century. Yep, China is the model of a future world government: control the human resources, keep them down as much as possible by banning words such as "freedom" or "democracy" from the public mind, and impose eminent domains over regions for the good of the world.


Originally posted by Trent
The moment China starts using it's military to force it's beliefs down the throat of other nations they will not be liked, when China was practising this in the past it was condemned just like any nation would be. If your now going to tell me that America only is forcing their beliefs on others because your beliefs are better, than that is exactly what every other expanionist country has said. From Rome to Napolean France, they all claimed they were bringing a better way of life to the countries they invaded and maybe from their point of view they did but the end results proved that the other countries didn't want to be carbon copies of the invading countries. Actions anyways speak louder than words and saying China is currently more expanisonist than the US when you have invaded two countries recently and have military bases in many others will fall on deaf ears.


Why do you think we have our military bases in Central Asia and the Middle East in the first place?! We're setting ourselves up to watch and contain China for the long haul.
A very smart, long-term strategic move for the Bush administration.


Wow i haven't seen freedom and democracy mentioned so many times in a paragraph since the last Bush speech before he went to bomb some poor country to the stone age. Anyway i think you are forgetting that we live in a real world. Idealism is great but that doesn't change the cold hard facts of reality. 3rd world countries have never made very good democracies, the countries surrounding China in Asia are very good examples of this. If a democratic system is attempted before other problems, such as poverty and education are solved than more often than not you end up with very currupt governments that are ruled by mafia and big corperations. This is why trying to "contain" or keep China down is a bad idea if you ever want them to have true democracy. Wealth, education and democracy go hand in hand and China IS making great strides in those areas. I work at a university in Australia which used to be one of the best in the Asia region but now days we are actually loosing students to the megalith univerities that have been built in China recently and not just Chinese students either. China has been much more successful at lifting people out of poverty than many of it's currupt "democratic" neighbours like Indonesia for example.

It's hard to have a democracy if the majority of the people can't read or are too worried about where their next meal comes from to care what the government does. Once China solves issues like poverty and education (which they have been doing quite well) than there is not going to be a force in the world that will be able to stop the people of China from having the kind of government they want to have. It may take time but it will happen if China continues to make progress in these areas. This is for comparison to show how well China is doing on these fronts when compared to other nations in the region China: GDP per capita - $5,600, Literacy - 90.9% India: GDP per capita - $3,100 Literacy - 59.5% Indonesia: GDP per captia - $3,500, Literacy - 87.9%. Now if you are under the impression that things like wealth and literacy are not requirements for a fully functioning democracy than I would like to ask, what planet are you on? Containing countries and keeping them in the dark ages is not a realistic plan to spread democracy IMO.

Source for economic and literacy statistics: www.cia.gov...

[edit on 25-6-2005 by Trent]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 01:14 PM
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You want to talk about facts? OK lets see you prove that the world loves the United States.

I repeatedly said it was my opinion and what I based my opinion on. Lets see you provide some facts that are contrary to my claim


And just for the record, I didnt name call past calling you a republican rent-a-troll which is exactly what you are. Your gravitation to the two biggest trouble makers and abusively arrogant right-wing zealots and their ready support for you is what im basing my opinion on. Prove me wrong.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
I hate to break it to you, but you are buying what somebody else is selling. I hereby recognize that you are officially under the control of the media.


I hate to break it to you, but the media is biased in every direction.

In fact, due to the many nations of the world and the many different political leanings of any given region, bias exists all over the place. Quite simply, the U.S. is not the population on this planet and since the human animal is prone to self-preservation, seld-pride, and egoistic tendencies in the face of satisfied survival conditions, that they will invariably see what they want out of the media.

Have you ever heard of suggestion?
Indeed, current marketing techniques(and media is marketing, focus on the need to suggest ego based interpretations.

In that sense, every nation on Earth will propagate it's importance......it's a national pride issue that allows citizens everywhere to take part in the daily routines that power the worlds economy.

Objectivity is key. And discounting the valid ruminations of one as being a manipulated response due to the all powerful media is, in an of itself, media influenced.

As to the poll, really, I could cherry pick a random set and produce results that favor the mountain regions of South America........

[edit on 25-6-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 01:58 PM
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Trent, China is doing one good thing after another which it's all about good, manipulative presentation before the world's eyes that China must be doing something "right". It's really all dog-n-pony show, courtesy of the Chinese Communist Party. Bear in mind that in 2008, China has a very important task in making their country very impressive and overwhelming for other countries visiting Beijing for the 2008 Olympics. It'll be very similar to what the Nazis have done in preparation for the 1936 Olympics: whitewashing any public dissension and criticism of the government, massive cover-up or suppression of internal problems and using the military/security branches (though an absolute necessity for safety reasons in this post-9/11 era) to keep dissension or opposition away from the visitors' eyes or ears.

True democracy would never work out in China as long as one party doing all the works and controls over the mass. Name one country, which is fully democratic, have more domestic successes under a single party system while oppressing or suppressing public dissension.

You're focusing on the positive attributes and ignoring the negative attributes of China. Can't have any negative things to say about it because we have to focus on something wonderful and positive about China, that goes your thinking. There's no communist party ruling China, there goes another of your thinking (it's true, according to one idiotic ATS member here). Poverty is being lifted out of China, literacy is being eliminated and 1.3 billions now have better lives.


Baloney. China's entertaining you with its massive dog-n-pony show, making you coming back for more.

If people wanted to read and write, that's up to them, not up to the government. If people works hard to earn a better life, that's up to them, not up to the government. If people wanted to get out of a dark age, that's up to them, not up to the government.

[edit on 6/25/2005 by the_oleneo]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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To Subz across the pond,


You want to talk about facts? OK lets see you prove that the world loves the United States.

I repeatedly said it was my opinion and what I based my opinion on. Lets see you provide some facts that are contrary to my claim


#1. Yes I want to talk about facts.

#2. I can't prove that the world loves the united states because it doesn't. I'm not sure where that came from. I never said that I or anyone loved, or should love, the united states.

#3. In the few instances where you say something is your opinion, you follow by saying "the World" feels this or that.

As in: In my opinion, the World agrees with my opinion. I base this opinion on my feelings that the world's opinion does indeed agree with my own.

--- Look in your quote above, you say "opinion" and later refer to "claims." Yes, you make a lot of claims.

#4. Yes, I want to see some facts for your "opinions", "claims", etc. Let's begin with something easy instead of "the World" is this or that. Let's begin by you using ONE fact and we'll go from there. Then you can start supporting your "claims" instead of dismissing more complete posts as being "republican". Maybe you can define what you mean by republican. Or democrat. Or pretty much anything at all.


With regards to the world at large's opinion on the United States; my assertions come from the feeling I get speaking to others from around the World.


Surprise, but speaking to "others from around the World" does not mean you have authority to speak for "the World." What do you do, speak to someone from every populated continent in the world and then figure everyone there is the same? If you want to shut me up on this point, how many people have you talked to and where are they from. There are 195+ "countries" in the world. Which ones are you talking about. The problem comes when you make the giant leap to "the world's" opinion.

(May I point out that you specifically say this is an "assertion" based on "feelings" regarding "the world at large's opinion"?)

I think I've said it before, I don't have a problem with you or anyone who disagrees with me or my "republican mouthpiece". Simply, you have cited instances and facts related to you opinions that you either don't understand (instances) or can't back up (facts). That is a problem in a discussion.


I hate to break it to you, but the media is biased in every direction.


MemoryShock, I agree with your whole post. To clarify though, I meant for my last sentence to mean the same thing. Grasping and clinging to a sensationalized HEADLINE ("America Siezes...", "World favors..." etc.) does not mean it's so. Using headlines instead of facts only makes Subz' opinion all the less meaningful. That's why facts are important and quoting the media is much less important.

I would just expect (I'm new) for a member of this website to be a little more savvy when it comes to the media.

[edit on 25-6-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 02:40 PM
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It seems pretty obvious to me that, unfairly or not, a mojority of other nations dislike the US. Whether this dislikes is based on envy or fear can be debated; what does seem obvious, though, is that our attempts to curry favor with other countries by doing what we do does not seem to be working.

In other words, our presence and support of the United Nations, involvement in disaster relief, financial aid to other countries -- not to mention our military intervention for good oir ill -- is simply not cost-effective.

It seems to me that we should stop wasting our time, effort, and funds in supporting the UN, involving ourselves in places like Yugoslavia, Rwanda, tsunami relief, etc., and any other "outreach" -- and place our national self-interests first.

After all, it's what the other nations do, n'est-ce pas?



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by Kriz_4

I agree. It seems. TX is one of the most racist, religously fanatical Christian area on the planet.



Kriz_4 that comment is subjective and intentionally inflamatory. If you haven't the words to disagree with someone logically & politely then you should think about your response until you do.

2nd Hand Thoughts -- welcome to the wonderful world of ATS, it's good to see new people jump in with both feet--guns blazing.

Somewhat pertinent to this discussion is the U.S. Secretary Of State's policy speech in Cairo, Egypt. I've added this edit just to provide the link:

www.state.gov...

[edit on 25-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

[edit on 25-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

[edit on 25-6-2005 by Astronomer68]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
Was the part I was talking about. If you read the source and poll you will understadn why that is off topic.


Odium..... if I named any of those countries it was to contradict the statement made by subz....and if anyone is trying to take this thread off topic it is you now you by trying to blame me for responding to a false claim in this thread...

Anyways, to get back on topic, i know a lot of people have a lot of faith in such polls, and some even have more faith in them, when polls such as this one seem to back their claims of anti-American sentiment in the world.

Personally, I don't place a lot of faith in polls, because they can be easily swayed one way or another as a political tool. For example, we have read in these forums how subz, and others have claimed that most Britons are against the war in Iraq and against president Bush, but yet, in their last election, the majority of britons voted again for Blair. If Britons were so much against president Bush and the war, i don't think they would have voted for Blair again. But then you get the excuse that Britons voted not because of the war, which in itself is a contradiction to the claims made by some around these boards.

I have also noticed that for some reason, the rise in the democratic movement of some Middle Eastern countries, such as Lebanon, is not being even mentioned by these people who claim the world hates the US. Middle eastern countries who know what is happening in Iraq, and because of the coalition involvement in Iraq, took to the streets demanding for democracy and freedom from the Syrians.

Of course, when there are such movements which are pro-democratic and where people want capitalism in their countries, there are people around here who claim that is happening only because the US is behind these movements. But if you even mention and present evidence that the anti-american and anti-capitalist demostrations which are funded and promoted by communist groups such as ANWSER, these same people claim that even without the involvement of such communist groups, there would still be protests against the US. The problem is, that such communist groups, or their subsidiaries and sister groups are always the ones who fund and prepare such anti-American demonstrations throughout the world.



[edit on 25-6-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 08:55 PM
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Personal Ballistic Gymnastics

Well considering "2nd Hand Thoughts" posts seem to be retaining more dignity than those who I hastily lumped him in with, I think a better post is in order. I will give you what you request after a bit of clarifications, on my part.

Since alot of the rancorous posts aimed at me surround my choice of words I think a revisit of what I actually said could be helpful.

Heres my first post in this thread from the very first page. I said the following:


Originally posted by subz
I currently favour China over the USA Muaddib. They havent actually carried out 2 invasions in the last 4 years have they?

So theres one vote that they havent fudged.

Clearly I am expressing my own, personal sentiment regarding the United States (government). I also was countering Muaddib's post which said the following:


Originally posted by Muaddib
I also have to wonder if it is true that most of the people in the world favor China,

So as far as I was concerned, being a non-American and actually being part of "people in the world" I could say with utter clarity what my own opinion was and it reinforced what the poll claimed.

Which obviously solicited this derogatory response:


Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh, so now only the US invaded Afgahnistan and Iraq huh subz? i guess Canada was not in the invasion of Afgahnistan, as well as several other countries. i guess Spain, the U.K and the other countries which became part of the coalition had nothing to do with iraq either....

Muaddib's erratic tangential argumentative style show through here.

Did I actually say that the US invaded Iraq unilaterally? No
Did I contrast America's behaviour to China's with relation to Iraq and Afghanistan? Yes
Did China partake in the 'coalition of the willing' and was it part of the Iraq invasion? No
Was anything I said inaccurate? No
Did I mention anything that didnt directly pertain to the United States or China? No

Muaddib brings in other countries such as Canada, Spain and the UK in an effort to legitimize the Iraq war. He also brings up the UK in an obvious attempt to stoke a fire of nationalism in me as he knows im British. He assumes, wrongly, that I will take the bait and end up obliging him in going off topic in a "my country is better than yours argument". He also assumes, wrongly, that I am as fervently nationalistic as he is.

Consequently he is rebuked by Odium for going off topic:


Originally posted by Odium
Muaddib, this article only speaks of American and China so stick to the topic?

And also those posts do not link to any thing detailing dates or names of people, only assumed numbers.


To which Muaddib classically retorts:


Originally posted by Muaddib
Then other members such as subz should stay on topic huh?, instead of trying to get the topic off tangent.

Well now, we can clearly see I didnt go off topic. But in a classic "the best defence is a good offence" Muaddib post, he blames me for his shortcomings.

Can you see where I am coming from with how Muaddib operates? Lets see how his brother in arms, the_oleneo, jumps into the fray. Please bare in mind I have only posted 2 sentences in one post at this time.


Originally posted by the_oleneo
Is that how you're limiting your already dysfunctional mind on the basis of that? Not bad for a student of physics.


I hope you're packing up your suitcases and head to China to become a new citizen. Make sure you demand the Chinese government to give you the same rights and privileges as you have now. I'm very sure they'll gladly bestow their versions upon you.

Can you blame me for not dignifying this particular ATSNN user with responses anymore?

Regardless I replied to Muaddib's rhetoric with this:


Originally posted by subz
Anyway, Muaddib. I favour the Chinese over the United States because, as stated by others, the problems with China are internal. Do you really think im going to be put on trial in the legal system of China whilst sat here in sunny Northern England? I couldnt care less about their internal workings until it starts to directly interfere in my life.

The USA on the other hand has seen to it that my country has been transformed into a quasi-police state. Imported fascist aspects of the United States are being readily implemented over here by our government and I dont like it!

Also can you show me where I went off topic? You're obvously dillusional. You were called out by Odium for going off topic yet you blame me for it. Good work

My composure slipped and I called him "dillusional" (sic). But when held up to his posts I do not think it was unwarranted. Is an insult still and insult when its factually acurate? He accused me of going "off topic" when I clearly hadnt.
The rest of the post was still on topic.

My next post was sailing close to wind as far as topical relevance was concerned but IMHO it remained on topic. It was in reference to this:


Originally posted by ikillspys
Also to the fellow from England, I would like to point out that England has been riding on the coattails of the U.S for a while (since the end of WW2 when the pound collapsed(sp)). So it is only fitting in symbioses that both creatures, in this example states take on similar characteristics becouse if it did not it would lose one of its greatest partners

Here, one of my favourite academic subjects has been brought up. I thoroughly enjoy educating myself on anything regarding the Second World War. The fact that America's relationship with Britain, due to WW2, had been brought up. And how American characteristics should naturally be transfered to Britain inferred, in my view, that I was seen to be disparaging every American influence on my country. This was not and is not my opinion. I felt that I owed ikillspys a clarification on what I meant when I said:


Originally posted by subz
The USA on the other hand has seen to it that my country has been transformed into a quasi-police state. Imported fascist aspects of the United States are being readily implemented over here by our government and I dont like it!
Here I was specifically talking about our Control Orders. They stem directly from the U.S's War on Terror. The hysteria surrounding terrorists we experience here in Britain is a direct consequence of the War on Terror. The specifics of British Control Orders might not be known to you, I do not know. But considering Britain has not even experienced a terrorist attack since the Real IRA bombed Omagh I find the draconian Control Orders to be overkill. Even when the IRA was at its peak and we were experiencing a very real and present danger from terrorists we did not forgo due process and a right to trial as we do with Control Orders.

But since the inter connectivity of the Blair and Bush governments show us startling parallels with how they both respond to this new terrorist threat, I blame America for Control Orders. The precedent of a major industrialized nation publically holding people incommunicado, without trial, for indefinate periods of time in an attempt to prevent terrorism was set by the United States of America with Camp X-Ray, at the US Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba on January 11th 2002.

Four British citizens were held at Guantanamo Bay and were released, due to pressure from Blair's government, in 2004. However, when these men returned home to Britain they were locked away in HM Belmarsh Prison. This prison has been labelled "Guantanamo in our own backyard" and human rights groups claim that although Blair's petitions to get the four British prisoners out of Guantanamo Bay appeared to be in defence of their human rights, it was actually not the case at all.


"While the government has been seen publicly to lobby the US over the treatment of Guantanamo Britons, it is treating terror suspects the same way in its own country," it says.

"Over here it says such action is 'necessary' but no other country in Europe feels the need to go down this path."

BBC: Belmarsh - Britain's Guantanamo Bay?
The use of HM Belmarsh Prison to indefinately detain terrorist suspects, as in Guantanamo Bay, was ruled illegal on December 16th 2004 by British Law Lords in the House of Lords.


Detaining foreign terrorist suspects without trial breaks human rights laws, the UK's highest court has ruled.

In a blow to the government's anti-terror measures, the House of Lords ruled by an eight to one majority in favour of appeals by nine detainees.

The Law Lords said the measures were incompatible with European human rights laws, but Home Secretary Charles Clarke said the men would remain in prison.

BBC: Terror detainees win Lords appeal
Charles Clarke's answer to the illegality of Belmarsh's Guantanamo Bay practices? Control Orders. The Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 was signed into British law on March 11th 2004. Within hours of its entrance into British law the first Control Orders were issued, not by a court, but by one man - Charles Clarke.

Control Orders impose draconian limits on the freedoms of on an uncharged, untried and otherwise law abiding British citizen. The limits include:


# Banning possession or use of specified articles or substances

# Prohibiting the use of certain services, such as internet or phones

# Restricting work or business

# Restricting association or communication with certain individuals, or other people generally

# Restricting the person's place of residence or who is allowed into the premises

# Requiring the person to be at specified places or in a particular area at certain times or days

# Restricting movements within the UK or international travel

# A specific 24-hour ban on movements

# Requiring the surrendering of a passport

# A requirement to give access to specified people to his home

# A requirement to allow officials to search his home

# A requirement to let officials remove items from premises for tests

# A requirement to be monitored by electronic tagging or other means

# A requirement to provide information to an official on demand

# A requirement to report at a specified time and place

BBC: Control Orders Explained

Since the United States is the self-confessed benchmark for worldwide democratic countries, I hold their precedent of Guantanamo Bay detention practices responsible for the flagrant disregard the British government shows for basic human rights.

At the risk of not backing up what I say with enough explanation, I now feel I have clarified what I meant when I said:


Originally posted by subz
The USA on the other hand has seen to it that my country has been transformed into a quasi-police state. Imported fascist aspects of the United States are being readily implemented over here by our government and I dont like it!


My post then continued to explain the other aspects of why I favour China over the United States.


Originally posted by subz
Our relationship with the United States is currently a liability and detrimental to our national security. Sucking up to America is fine when the threat comes in the form of another country. It can wipe out any nation at will but when the percieved enemy are criminals and not defined by borders you are always fighting a rear guard action. You'd have more luck declaring war on your own thoughts.

I think the World favours China because it is an emergent super-power and its track record is not great but at this point in time it is cleaner than Americas. What happend 50 years ago in WW2 does not factor into our generations thinking. Japan and Germany are not persecuted any longer for what they did in WW2 and as such the good will garnered by Britain and the USA at the same time is equally forgotten.

This is where I raised your ire by using the phrase "I think the World favours". At this stage I was directly refering to the topic heading:

"NEWS: International Poll Reveals: World favors China over USA"

I didnt think I was obliged to provide extra evidence to back up a comment that was directly refering to what the thread was all about. If the topic itself was flawed then the story should not be up for discussion here on ATSNN. The onus to prove the validity, or lack thereof, of the story should of been those who disagree with it. Those who agree with the original stories findings, like me, were discussing the implications of it and why they concur with its findings.

I was still ontopic IMHO but subsequent posts reduced to groan worthy French bashing. Again WW2 was dragged out as if its America's "get out of jail free" card, to be played whenever it faces international criticism.


Originally posted by periwinkle blue
The ingratitude of these peoples is towering, almost French in it's magnitude.

Well considering the motto of ATS is to "Deny Ignorance" I took it upon myself, perhaps to my detriment, to show how futile that kind of logic is. I reminded periwinkle blue that a major contributing factor to America's independance from Britain was French assistance.

If he wanted to call the World's change in opinion of America, as according to this poll, as "ingratitude" "French in it's magnitude" I had something to say about it. I wanted to show him his "ingratitude" to what the French nation did for his own nation in the American War of Independance was equally as fitting. Did this mean he had no right to question his view on France? My post was meant to show periwinkle blue that such illusions of gratitude should not factor into a contemporary view of such a nation. That it applied equally to Frances perceived "ingratitude" as much as it does to his "ingratitude" of what France did for his country.

Following that the WW2 theme cropped up again. My posts sailed close to the wind again with its topical relevance but again IMHO that I remained on topic. I acknowledged so much with:


Originally posted by subz
My point has been lost amidst the WW2 digression. My point is that international opinions care little for what happend in the past, including the good deeds America did in WW2. No one in power in America was responsible for America's actions in WW2


Now we come to your maiden post.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
The poll is vague and meaningless to me. I don't really know who was polled or how directly they are influenced by Chinese or US policy. I live in the US and I would view the question from the standpoint of how imports/exports affect the standard of living here for American workers since that is the first thing that comes to my mind as far as how I am affected by China.

If I were to value the poll at all as a "popularity" poll, which I find it to be, the value would be slim at best. Were starving people who receive food from American charities polled? I'd think those people would rate us highly. Someone who had a mid-eastern relative killed in our current war would rate us on the low end. By whom are the polled people informed? What media informs them? Are they "well-informed" or informed at all? Are they aware that China mandates required abortions? Are they aware China has the most sophisticated firewall in place that chokes communication with the rest of the world?

Again, if I knew how much the polled have been or will be affected, I could adjust my value of the poll. But polls within my town, state and country are flawed at best. A multinational poll? Hmmm.

You attacked the veracity of the poll in question with nothing more substantial than your opinion. You asked questions yet provided no answers. You infered but did not provide proof. You quite eloquently express that you think the poll is a load of trash and you dont believe it but you do not provide any proof to back your opinion up. That you would subsequently criticise me for a lack of facts to back up my posts is rather hypocritical here.

I didnt feel the need to respond to your maiden post. It was not personally derogatory in any way shape or form. To be brutally honest, the contents of it was not of interest to me. It raised no points I thought needed countering. You expressed your opinion and I have no problem with that.

Onwards and upwards (pg 5) please bare with me



Originally posted by subz
All you Americans slagging China off need to remember that no matter what you say about your own country and China - the world still favours China over the United States.

Harp on about the freedoms you think you have all you like. If your founding fathers hadnt been so on the money with your constitution you'd only have one right left - the right to buy.

Dead peasant tax, compulsory purchase orders for your home to go to private companies, sneak and peak, indefinate detention with no right to appeal, unaudited government contracts to former employers by Cheney, highest prison population on the globe, 2 invasions in the last 4 years, Dr.Phil and your countries first felon President - Bush.

Just try and stop me immigrating to that country!

My post was not directed at you. You were not "slagging China off" but my attention focused towards you when you quoted me and rebuked me for it.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
"the world still favors China over the United States" - Based on what? A vague poll? Do you know anyone who took the poll? Do you accept polls as fact? Does "the world" favor Chinese foreign policy over American foreign policy? Or Chinese domestic policy over American domestic policy? Or do the Chinese just make better sneakers?

You asked a lot of questions here
To be honest I didnt want to stretch my attention beyond Muaddib in this thread. He was flailing and I knew China was his topic of choice when it came to a "straw man" defence of the United States behaviour.

You continued to write:


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
"compulsary purchase orders for your home to go to private companies" - Yep, that's pretty much how it works. I bought this computer I'm typing on and it was in fact produced by a private company. Wait, actually shares of the company are actually traded in the public sector.

Since I was partaking in another 10 paged (and ongoing) thread about this topic and you obviously misunderstood what I was saying with it, I chose to respond to your post.

I think you were refering to eminent domain for public works such as public infrastructure i.e. highways, bridges etc. Yes, thats nothing new and it even occurs over here in Britain. However, what you might not of known, since it had only just happend, was that the US Supreme Court had just ruled that private home owners could have their land forcibly bought from them, not for "public use" as the constitution demands, but for private use. In this case, for the building of a private office building.

I posted as such regarding eminent domain later but before that you posted this:


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
I don't think anyone here favors China over the US if truly looking at the whole picture. I think most speaking against the US here haven't been directly affected by our CURRENT government's actions and policies but are rightly critical of our current government's actions and policies.

"Based on what?" I think is how you put it. Can you truly speak for me on this topic? Again im obliged to point out your hypocrasy here.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Obviously the poll is meaningless. It wasn't a "world" poll, which would be a logistical nightmare, and "favor" is meaningless unless it's hooked up to some nouns anyway.

Its meaningless? Based on what? You still hadnt attacked the veracity of the poll with any contradictory proof. You were solely basing your assertion on your opinion on polls in general. The same generalisation you accussed me of in following posts.

Directly after your post comes more the_oleneo gems.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Chalk up another example of your poor educational knowledge on the early years of the post-World War II era.



Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Keep it up, subz. Your blatant anti-American bias and prejudice are very revealing. The fact remains that the US saved Europe from Nazism, nonetheless. Next time we may not be there in case Europe needs us in the future. You sound like a French.



Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Too bad you don't trust America on that silly basis. I don't trust you and your kind already, since 1989.


The fact that you consequently applauded the_oleneo by saying


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Good points oleneo.

did nothing to elevate your relatively uknown status for me. I, wrongly, lumped you in with his ilk. These three words were not the sole basis for this though. Let me explain.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Whoa. Hold on there my fine fellow.

Knowing youre American and knowing you know me to be British, I took the anachronistic use of "fine fellow" to be a cultural jibe. If I interpreted this wrong and you still do use the term "fine fellow" in its intended good mannered use, I apologize.

But the subsequent combative tones and words from you only reinforced my opinion that it was a cultural jibe.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Seriously, step up to the mic.


Couple this with the very proximity to no less than 9 (Muaddib/the_oleneo) posts before I even responded. As well as the Above Top Secret Awards Muaddib awarded you, as well as your compliment of the_oleneo and I think I can be forgiven to reading more into your motives than were probably there.

Which pretty much brings us to your last posted thats directed to me. I apologize if it was a long winded clarification of what I meant and what I had actually said but I feel it was warranted.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Hi Subz.

I'm not sure it matters whatever you imagine my political affiliation to be. It's true, I tend to appreciate points made by people who back up their assertions and thoughtfully contribute to discussions. I think I have pointed out enough of your faulty logic to last me a lifetime. But trying to discredit actual THOUGHT by labelling me with a party's name ain't gonna work. I know you're frustrated, but it's not that easy man.

Quite a combative opening but since I refered to you as a "Republican rent-a-troll" thats pretty much a given



Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
You haven't backed up any of your statements with FACTS. You breeze right over all of the points others make on this board with actual validity. Everyone is waiting and you're choking big time.

Pretty much my impetus to post this rather lengthy response right there. As I illustrated before, I might not of articulated the reasoning behind my beliefs as rigorously as I should of but in the interest of not going too far off topic I kept to the subjective nature of the topic i.e. my own opinion.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
You are obviously in over your head at this point. There are at least 12 things you've said that others have asked you to back up and you can't. You have now resorted to the lowest form of speech: name calling.

A rather crude observation but your "name calling" comment has merit. I think I've explained where the "Republican rent-a-troll" tag, I wrongly labelled you with, came from.


Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Subz, I hate to break it to you, but you are buying what somebody else is selling. I hereby recognize that you are officially under the control of the media.

Rather pompous of you there and I think MemoryShock summed it better than I could.

After that I posted my last post before this one:


Originally posted by subz
You want to talk about facts? OK lets see you prove that the world loves the United States.

I repeatedly said it was my opinion and what I based my opinion on. Lets see you provide some facts that are contrary to my claim

And just for the record, I didnt name call past calling you a republican rent-a-troll which is exactly what you are. Your gravitation to the two biggest trouble makers and abusively arrogant right-wing zealots and their ready support for you is what im basing my opinion on. Prove me wrong.

Im still waiting to see if you can prove that the World loves the United States. Its a rather hard thing to prove, you must admit. If you want to bring out facts to back your argument up I will oblige and do the same. Until then I think we can be content to keep this as subjective as the original topic is. That includes respect of my opinion as much as it does your own.

This post is pretty much meant to prove to some that IMHO that I stayed, for the most part, on topic. I wasnt "over my head" and an explanation (not a justification) of why I called you a "republican rent-a-troll".

Thanks for reading


[edit on 25/6/05 by subz]



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