Extremist views from Pro-American ATSers

Wahay, it's another one ^^^^

Level the city? Nice forward thinking there. What about if another city had a few rebels in? Level that one? keep levelling city after city?

And you wonder why they keep on fighting!

Put yourself in their shoes. Imagine if Russia invaded the US pre-1940 (I choose America pre-1940 as your army was woefully inadequate). You would have been overun with commies. Would you have laid down and let it happen, or would you fight? You'd fight back! Of course you would!

The problem with the view above is that Iraq, pre-2003, had nothing to do with terrorism (no more than any other ME country, or any country for that matter, we all have dirty games we play) or 9/11.

But now, it is a hotbed for "terrorism" because of the power vacuum and the presence of a foreign invading army.

I question their methods, but not their motives, for they are the same as anyone else would have in their shoes. Levelling cities is not the way to win the war. Learn nothing from Vietnam? You can't fight a guerilla war with conventional tactics. Levelling infrastructure, towns, cities and the like will only serve to grow the insurgency.

Originally posted by stumason
Level the city? Nice forward thinking there.

Back the turnip truck up ..... he didn't say that America SHOULD
level it... he posted the fact that it COULD have if it wanted to
and that it didn't. He posted a fact about military ability.
That isn't 'pro-American extremism' ... it's just a military fact.

Do you consider facts to be 'extremism'??

Originally posted by stumason
And you wonder why they keep on fighting!

I don't wonder at all. MOST of Iraqis don't want
anything at all to do with the terrorists. They hate
the insurgents. The ones that fight are NOT the
typical Iraqi civilian .. they are the murderers and
corrupt criminals who want a corrupt government.
Some are religious wing nuts from other countries
who think that if they kill infidels they will go to
'paradise' and get 'serviced' by by a bunch of
doe-eyed virgins for all eternity. They will fight
no matter what we do or don't do. They are
brainwashed.

The people of Iraq want freedom and no insurgents.
The insurgents fight because of corruption and a
power struggle. They are not freedom fighters.
They fight against freedom and they fight against
the Iraqis and their chosen government.

Syria sends them over the border as does Saudi
Arabia. Iran too. Those governments are AFRAID of freedom
in Iraq. Freedom in Iraq means that freedom is one step
closer to their own countries and they are one step closer
to loosing power. So insurgents are sent across the borders
to stop freedom so they can keep their corrupt governments
(and Royal Family in Saudi Arabia's case) in power.

So no .. I don't wonder why they keep fighting.
We all know why they are fighting.

OK, the Extremist is here now

I find it strange that you believe there is so much extreme pro american stuff on these boards.

I can only think of about 10 members who actually side with our country here, and aparently one of them was banned.

Most of the stuff I read is about how Bush has trumped Hitler and Stalin as the most evil man in history.

The venerable heritage of The United States of America is something different from any one period of time in which a specified leader is in office.

In my thoughts the Constitution is pro-american, not some temporary powers that think they are more powerful because they care nothing about history, nor the Constitution.

Therefore I take exception to people considering how they define the United States by any one leader at any time. There is a spirit of the United States that far transcends any of these people. Listen it takes time, dedication, and understanding to validate what the United States signfies within oneself as a valid, true, and just concept. It is something existential but moral, and it is fairness and actual humanity, not the tyranny that resurfaces when goons use symbols in vain.

thaei,
Welcome to our happy little board; I hope that you settle in and come to be a part of our dysfunctional little cyber family.

When you read the War on Terror forum, remember why that forum was created. Please keep in mind that there are a few valid reasons why the American public just might be in a foul mood in reference to countries like Iran, North Korea, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. When you read an American writing something that you see as extremist, keep in mind that their statements are a tad generalistic, and were they given control of their country's military might, they would not do as you fear they would. When you read about countries such as Iran and Syria not only not stemming the flow of combatants into Iraq, but even condoning it, you can see why they might say something as over the top as "Nuke Iran!"

At this moment, there are 159 members and 1908 visitors at the ATS sites. That is a pretty large number, and the people come from all walks of life, and they are not all pro-American, I assure you. You will also read posts from the other end of the spectrum. You will read posts by people looking forward to the day when a nuclear weapons is detonated in America. You will read posts by people using the vague phrase that declares the war is all about oil. You will read how many here have the incredible belief that Bush is trying to take over the world (Even if he did, he'd have to give it back after his two terms were up!). There are all sorts of wacky ideas being posted from the other end of the spectrum, so please, be honest and recognize that fact. Otherwise, you are simply one of "them".

Here's a really nifty idea. Rather than be concerned with your perception that there are too many pro-American zealots here, why not enter into rational debate with them, whenever they say something over the top? When you discuss the particular topic or concept with them, ask the right questions, you will probably narrow them down into a point where they'll have to clarify themselves and, in the process, explain that they really don't want to "nuke" Iran, they simply wish that Iran would stop enabling insurgents, stop pursuing their needless goal of nuclear capabilities and become a trustworthy member of the international community.
It might take a post or two, as there's a chance they might know someone who died in the attacks of 2001 (or before), or have a friend or family member fighting right now, or might even have lost a loved one to an insurgent's car bomb.

Just to point out an obvious thing here, if there seems to be many more "anti-US" things on the board as opposed to "anti-country xyz" is that maybe, just maybe it is because it is America that is doing stuff that causes concern?

The reason there isn't alot of Anti-Denmark out there, is that Denmark isn't going into soverign countries killing people, regardless if you think it is right or wrong, surely you can see where by doing it will get attention, not doing it will remove attention. The reason there isn't a lot of anti-Brazil threads is because they aren't engaging in wars that seem to be based more on a personal vendetta or business plan. The US is, therefore is it not natural that there would be threads associated with it?

Great post, and keep up the great work. Be at peace my friend.

they only number in the thousands instead of the 26 million people in Iraq?


If most Iraqis did not want the US there to help them then they could easily make it known. Having 10 million people rising up would be an entirely different situation. The fact is the vast majority either have never had freedom before (the under 30 crowd), or remember when Iraq was a shining star in the middle east with a democratic government before the rise of Saddam.

Welcome to ATS thaei

Originally posted by thaei
1. Pro-US atsers urging NUKING NK, Iran preemptively. - no explanation needed here, views like this will never be legitimate in any discussion even if held with the neocons (although they may privately cherish the act). everybody, even the most anti-american atsers NEVER posts "AMERICA should be NUKED" but some overly patriotic posters openly endorse it on their enemy

I believe you're mainly talking about this thread
Are You For or Against A War With Iran/North Korea?
I'll go over it again, but I don't recall seeing anyone urging the nuking of NK or Iran preemptively.

If you're talking about other threads where people have stated that could you please point them out. Much appricated

Also there are anti-American posters saying the US should be nuked. Most get have a tendacy to get banned and their posts deleted however.
I think there's some posts like that in the John Titor thread in case you don't believe me

and Titor is right, half of you should be dead.

2. PRO-US atsers claiming the ungodly superiority of the US military that they almost sound the same: "US can rule the world if we want, so thank us that we hadn't yet" - discussions regarding insurgents or military comparisons often lead to someone claiming this and someone agreeing with him/her.

I see a ton more posts from anti-American ATSers claiming the US is an empire than posts from people saying thank us we're not an empire.
As far as the military comparison threads. Those are great. Those are threads where you actually learn something. And of course this person or that person is going to claim their country has the best stuff.

3. Any criticism of the US govt/policy always result to pro-us atsers claiming the poster as anti-american. no matter how legitimate the criticism is, there is bound to be someone saying: Your hatred of america has blinded you".

Usually when that happens, it's a pattern with that ATSer.
Also a lot of times people don't always distinguish between the US government and the US.
ECK makes that distinction.
Syrian Sister does not.

4. Many same atsers criticize other governments for being dictatorial(censors the net, bans opposition) but when the same criticism of undemocratic practice is commited by the US govt. (patriot act) is made, some claim that those against the practice is unpatriotic. for parties concerned: "Is it that difficult to not see the obvious double standard in play here?"

This is said alot (not just on this board) but you rarely (if at all) do you see it.
I'd like to see just once where a poster told another poster that not supporting something like the patriot act is unpatriotic.


Anyway, again, welcome to ATS. You'll like it here.

[edit on 23-6-2005 by ThatsJustWeird]

passerby says:

Just to point out an obvious thing here, if there seems to be many more "anti-US" things on the board as opposed to "anti-country xyz" is that maybe, just maybe it is because it is America that is doing stuff that causes concern?

That does explain why there are so few anti-Denmark or anti-Brazil posts, but it doesn't explain why there are so few anti-DPRK or anti-PRC or anti-Myanmar or anti-Iran or anti-Indonesia or anti-Rwanda or anti-Zimbabwe-posts, does it?

The point is not that we want to level city's in Iraq just to root out the terrorist, we did not do so for a reason. Because American's even PRO-US extermists are compassionate people, we know how many innocent people would be affected. How many would be homeless because of our actions, sure we would save a handfull of American soliders and wipe out the terrorist stronghold of Falluja or any other city but at what moral cost ?? Which way can we live with ? Wiping out entire towns or being forced into giving up the precious life of a few soliders so that most of the town can remain in tact ?

The worst part is that THEY drew us into the battle, WHY CANT THEY UNDERSTAND THAT. If they would just lay down their arms, and stop fighting then we would move on. I am not saying for them to even turn themselves in. JUST STOP FIGHTING and in return we will say that the country is SAFE and LEAVE.

DONT YOU SEE, they are the protaganist, THEY MAKE US STAY THERE AND FIGHT THEM.

Its so irritating to see people post that we are doing this and that when all we want is the people of Iraq to be free to govern themselves without fear of dictators or terrorist insurgents criminals who force innocent people at gun point to become suicide bombers. It just sickens me that when we are trying to help humanity THEY are actively trying to destroy it with every means possible.

STOP FIGHTING AND WE WILL LEAVE. HISTORY SAYS SO. Look at every conflict where the liberators suddenly no longer have an enemy to fight. They dont have a reason to be there anymore.

I am a right-winged "neo-con" who loves and has fought for his country.

I don't think we should/can/will:

a) Nuke countries that oppose us.
b) That the U.S. can take over the world.
c) That the U.S. is the best place on Earth.

Hmm..kinda shatters your whole thought process, huh?

A) I don't think we should nuke countries because:
Point 1: It will harm the U.S. if we use ICBM's.
Point 2: It won't help stop terrorism, but rather it will encourage people to hate the U.S.
Point 3: It is unnecessary to nuke terrorists. Terrorists will collapse from within as soon as you can convince the people to stop giving them safe places to hide.
Point 4: It will ultimately make all other countries mad and may lead to a world war.

B) I don't think the U.S. can take over the world because:
Point 1: It would go Nuclear (See topic A, point(s) 1, 2, and 4)
Point 2: The U.S. needs countries to produce its' goods (such as China, India, etc.)
Point 3: There would be no need. It is not in the United States' best interest. Besides, the U.S. has enough control economically over the world that a physical take-over is not needed.

C) I don't think that the U.S. is the best place on Earth because:
Point 1: I'm from Ireland
Point 2: While the U.S. is DEFINITELY a great place to live, there are other regions and other climates that suit other people. However, like I said, the U.S. is definitely one of the top 10 places to live.

Finally, thank you for joining and please refrain from opinion without fact, thank you.

-wD

[edit on 23-6-2005 by WeBDeviL]

Originally posted by robertfenix
For example we could have just leveled Falluja with a massive wave of Large Bombs a huge carpet run from B52 with 2,000 lb bombs and just wiped out the city if we wanted to, no nuke required....

But our sense of steward ship and responsibility meant that we would have to fight it out with the terrorists on foot, causing the loss of many US soilders....

The US armed forces can inflict this kind of damage on a moments notice but are told not to to save public and international face...

We do not want the death of all muslims or arabs or any other person for that matter...

And its a good thing that our Goverment is not going to just sit back and let these people rattle their swords at us...

YOU WANT A FIGHT, WELL NOW YOU HAVE ONE.

It is good to see that characters typecast by the first post are happy to act out their role on the stage of international cyberspace.

Thousands of pro-US extremists are bred every day to follow on in the footsteps of the current "patriots".



To the friendly Mod with the friendly Excessive Quoting trigger finger... you did not bask in the art/science of selecting very specifically the Shakesperean lines that deliver the vision of the madness of King George.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by MaskedAvatar]

It is good to see that cracters typecast by the first post are happy to act out their role on the stage of international cyberspace.

And Masked you are carrying out your role and someone who cannot grasp the fact that America is at WAR. And even being at war we go out of our way to rebuild and protect people who live in the nations we are attacking.

It is very true that we could have sent in ZERO troops and just bombed Iraq for a year, but we didnt. Can you understand this???

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
passerby says:

Just to point out an obvious thing here, if there seems to be many more "anti-US" things on the board as opposed to "anti-country xyz" is that maybe, just maybe it is because it is America that is doing stuff that causes concern?

That does explain why there are so few anti-Denmark or anti-Brazil posts, but it doesn't explain why there are so few anti-DPRK or anti-PRC or anti-Myanmar or anti-Iran or anti-Indonesia or anti-Rwanda or anti-Zimbabwe-posts, does it?

Sure it does, while those countries are "bad" they aren't invading other countries - also, they don't try to condone their actions either. WHen you have been caught with your hand in the cookie jar, and try to explain that it isn't your fault, or that the Jar is Anti-Hand, there is a certain amount of amusement from spectators.

Also, there is a few posts about it, but it isn't in the news all the time either. Out of sight, out of mind - you know.

Hey, if America stopped invading countries, bullying their allies, and ijust generally acting like a dick - maybe that ol public image would shine up a bit huh?

**edited for spelling - big shock huh? LOL


[edit on 23-6-2005 by Passer By]

Welcome abroad, thaie.

I'm a pro-American bordering on the blurred realm between moderation and extremity. Two things stood out for me when it come to the US and the world:

If you come reaching out to shake hand with me and get to know me, I shall gladly do the same with and for you. Great way to learn and understand each other, even expecting few disagreeable points.

If you come intending to slam me or flat out assault me, I'll do the same to you in kind and I'll be sure to plummet you to the ground before I ask you a question, "Why?".

Obviously, there are some people who are more misinformed about Americans, the nature of being American and the American politics. They assume or presume most Americans are too dumb, arrogant, cocky and dangerous on the basis of their national leadership and policies upon the world and casted them as "extremists" in the same light as nazis or terrorists. This is a terribly inaccurate perception and it's far from the truth.

There are some non-American ATS members here who are terribly biased and misinformed about America and the Americans when it come to foreign/domestic policies. Even there are fellow American ATS members who agree with the opinions of non-American members, unfortunately up to the point of tolerating inaccurate viewpoints about the USA and Americans in general. I don't agree with inaccurate presentations or falsehood painting the USA in the same way as the Nazi Germany in the 1930s. Our country is far too diverse, too solid and too broad than that of the Weimar-era Germany. We have too many checks and balances in place to ensure that the country would never go for dictatorship without the proper consent of the American people and proper procedures to follow through. Even the Republicans are not 100% in lock-step with President Bush on most issues.

Barring any major national disaster or national security crisis, though.

Terrorists are not freedom fighters. Fighting for freedom while killing civilians along the way is not a surefire way to win freedom or the people's respect. There are alternative ways of fighting for freedom/liberty without resorting to mindless violence, terrorizing and "collateral damage" killings.

It's important to consider and understand all the facts and circumstances before you could post according to what you're thinking in your mind and be wary of making conjectural statements on something you don't fully understand.

Great, 29 sentences from you and I for one am not sure what your talking about? Give me at least the English version then I'll probably insult your thoughts..

Dallas

Originally posted by Boatphone

It is good to see that cracters typecast by the first post are happy to act out their role on the stage of international cyberspace.

And Masked you are carrying out your role and someone who cannot grasp the fact that America is at WAR. And even being at war we go out of our way to rebuild and protect people who live in the nations we are attacking.

It is very true that we could have sent in ZERO troops and just bombed Iraq for a year, but we didnt. Can you understand this???

boatphone, don't bother trying to reason with the masked avatar. That's why he's called the masked avatar because he has a black curtain on his face and won't see the light of clear reason from the likes of pro-American "extremists".

The reason there are so more anti U.S. government or anti US policy threads on this board than pro threads is the same reason why AI and the International Red Cross issue more reports/statements and complaints about what the U.S. is doing than what N. Korea, Iran, and Sudan are doing.

Have a good day.

West Point


[edit on 23-6-2005 by WestPoint23]

it is the only possible excuse.