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Extremist views from Pro-American ATSers

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posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:33 AM
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First of all, this is my first post (will point that out before someone discovers that and use it as a lame excuse for whatever reason).

Although i have only applied for a membership here last week, Ive been a regular (almost daily) reader of the forum especially the war on terrorism, current events and aircraft project for almost 1 1/2 years. Given this time, ive seen so many personal opinions that is so outrageous that left me wondering how they could be used as arguments in an intelligent debate/discussion.

My case in point:
1. Pro-US atsers urging NUKING NK, Iran preemptively. - no explanation needed here, views like this will never be legitimate in any discussion even if held with the neocons (although they may privately cherish the act). everybody, even the most anti-american atsers NEVER posts "AMERICA should be NUKED" but some overly patriotic posters openly endorse it on their enemy

2. PRO-US atsers claiming the ungodly superiority of the US military that they almost sound the same: "US can rule the world if we want, so thank us that we hadn't yet" - discussions regarding insurgents or military comparisons often lead to someone claiming this and someone agreeing with him/her.

3. Any criticism of the US govt/policy always result to pro-us atsers claiming the poster as anti-american. no matter how legitimate the criticism is, there is bound to be someone saying: Your hatred of america has blinded you".

4. Many same atsers criticize other governments for being dictatorial(censors the net, bans opposition) but when the same criticism of undemocratic practice is commited by the US govt. (patriot act) is made, some claim that those against the practice is unpatriotic. for parties concerned: "Is it that difficult to not see the obvious double standard in play here?"

I made this as an intelligent discussion. For those atsers that felt that my post was inadvertently aimed at you, please give a valid reason for discounting my view or providing a counter argument. personal attacks or calling me anti-american will not help and will just reinforce the validity of my post.

As a final note, I am an internationalist. I believe in the final destiny of mankind that is united regradless of race, nationality.




posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:37 AM
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Welcome and congrats on your first post! You may have opened a can of worms here though, so I shall wait to see if/who responds.....



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by thaei
ive seen so many personal opinions that is so outrageous that left me wondering how they could be used as arguments in an intelligent debate/discussion.

To me, this has become the crux of the problem. The vast majority of discussion taking place on the internet as a whole is simply opinion, very often passed off as fact by people who seem to need some sort of intellectual recognition.


Having said that, one's experiences are highly subjective, suggesting that perhaps all is opinion and nothing is fact.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 05:48 AM
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nice to have you here Thaei....glad to see another person that is a human first


I agree with all your points, they are right on spot, but the sad truth is some people just dont seem to be able to put things in a broader perspective. I guess if you are fed the same crap over and over, you start to like the taste....you know what they say tell a lie 100 times and it becomes the truth.

Anyway to some, its not about personal growth, learning, exchange of ideas and understanding, its about egos....like my rocket is bigger than yours



"Your hatred of america has blinded you".

boy have i heard that before....some people here are famuous for it



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:05 AM
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Congrats on your first post.

Odd thing though, I would think that the type of posters that you mention are quite a small minority. If anything, I see the more anti-establishment conspiratorial types on here.

I think though, that anyone that derives their opinion from one side or source, and for an absolutest view are very, very misguided, and not all that intelligent(and this is comimg from an economic and foreign policy conservative and a social liberal: Don't worry, I works in my head).

As a matter of personal policy, I tend to discount anyone that says the following:

all
nuke
them
reptilian
nazi
communist
anti-american
hate
evil
left
right
neo-con
fundamentalist
Halaburton



As my general rule, if you use the preceeding in very strong terms, you have a well entrenched view of the world, and nothing any of us could say is going to change it. I love to discuss issues, and I like to discuss them in detail, but as soon as the first buzz word is thrown, I lose interest(Buzz words are kinda like throwing a punch during an argument, they only come out as a defense from someone who feels they are losing.)

Keep up the posts. This board is real good as a time distraction :-)



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:10 AM
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Originally posted by KhieuSamphan
To me, this has become the crux of the problem. The vast majority of discussion taking place on the internet as a whole is simply opinion, very often passed off as fact by people who seem to need some sort of intellectual recognition.


Having said that, one's experiences are highly subjective, suggesting that perhaps all is opinion and nothing is fact.


There are defintely facts.
The world trade center is no longer standing.
American troops are currently in Iraq.
Some people in Iraq blow up other people with bombs.
These are facts.

When searching for the reasons why these things are happening, when trying to understand motiviation of and identity of the people responsible - when dealing in abstracts such as these, is when the problems arise.

I think the simple fact is most of us never experience these things firsthand. We have no choice but to get our information secondhand. Sometimes even thrid and fourthhand. Eventually, you aren't being told facts and truth at all, but instead you're receiving assumption and guesswork and paraphrasing.
Then you still have to decide which sources to accept as truth and which to deny as incorrect or lies or disinfo.
Most likely, you still have to add your own reasoning and creative thinking to what information you have managed to get, just to come away with what looks to be a complete picture. (kind of the way your brain will see shapes in pictures made of only lines and dots because it is designed to fill in the empty spaces...)

By the time this process is finished, how can anyone be sure of anything?

At best, the internet allows us to exchange opinions and hopefully, respect those different from our own.

I certainly don't know the whole truth behind any of the 'facts' I listed above. And no one else on this site does, either. But it's interesting to read peoples' opinions.

After awhile, you can even find trustworthy sources here - people who may not know the whole truth, but who can consistently be seen to put forth the effort to search for the truth and share what they learn.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:24 AM
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Hi Welcome

Good post. It's worried me too. Some very scary (and not too bright) people on here. I wonder if, at times, they think we're all Al Quida - after all being from a foreign country we're bound to be terrorists! They can't countenance any criticism or failing on their Nation's part - a bit like the loyal Nazis

Plus some people have trouble distinguishing the USA and Israel as two separate entities - talk about g'mo and they reply re the West Bank.

The fact these people have guns and a valid vote really concerns me. Can it all be down to Fox?

Strangely many of the Neo-cons still can't accept the US's bloody & shameful history of terrorist support & training. We (UK) suffered from US terrorist fundraising for years and have graves to show for it - they ignored our requests to stop it then; until they realised the true cost of terrorism - bodies!

I wonder if they'll join in on this one? Doubt it!



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by quango
There are defintely facts.
The world trade center is no longer standing.
American troops are currently in Iraq.
Some people in Iraq blow up other people with bombs.
These are facts.

Yes, sorry Quango, I am kind of stuck in a personal 'does objective reality exist' debate at the moment. However, if, for the time being, I assume that all I see before my eyes witthin the physical world is as it seems to be, then yes, the above list can be considered as 'facts'.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by KhieuSamphan

Originally posted by quango
There are defintely facts.
The world trade center is no longer standing.
American troops are currently in Iraq.
Some people in Iraq blow up other people with bombs.
These are facts.

Yes, sorry Quango, I am kind of stuck in a personal 'does objective reality exist' debate at the moment. However, if, for the time being, I assume that all I see before my eyes witthin the physical world is as it seems to be, then yes, the above list can be considered as 'facts'.


Well, I do see your point.


Those may be facts - but they don't really tell me anything.
WHY was WTC attacked? WHO attacked it? WHO planned it? WHO helped? WHO knew about it? WHAT did they hope to gain? HOW did they do it?

etc.

There are just so many tiny, little facts involved in any one event like 9/11, that only opinion can hold those little pieces together.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:50 AM
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Hello thaei, nice first post.
At first glance there does seem to be a lot of extreme views by some Americans but i do in all honesty think that they are in the minority. What you are seeing is a few Americans who post a lot making it perhaps seem as though there are a lot of extreme views coming from America.
But we must look at these kinds of posts objectively. Yes there are some people who express extreme points of view regarding the War on Terror, Iraq, Iran etc but i truly believe that what we read here within this cosy community are the views and opinions of the minority not the majority.
I think we also have to keep in mind that the US bears deep scars from 911 and that those scars will take a long time to heal, if ever. And a lot of the views you mentioned i think arise from the emotional hurt that alot of people still feel about what happened on 911. Remember this was the first time ( not including Pearl Harbor ) that an attack of this magnitude has ever happened on US soil, in fact any where in the World, before and a lot of people in the US have put up the battlements so to speak and that they cannot trust anyone anymore, even their allies and that there is a emotional need to strike back what ever the cost.
But this is the Internet after all, perhaps the last true bastion of free speech uncensored and uncontrolled by Government and mass media and people have a need to vent that anger and frustration somewhere, better here than in the real world.

[edit on 23-6-2005 by Janus]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:56 AM
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Welcome new member, sorry if the discussions you've entered seem slanted more the the right than the left.
I'm a fairly recent member myself and have found a WIDE variety of opinions, and would certainly not label any significant portion as Nazis who (as described possess guns and vote).
I'm likely to be one of those you feel is to the right, not a Nazi, am a gun owner and do vote. Only the latter item have I ever utilized for a purpose.
As a discussion base, the essence of what you will read is OPINION. It is the nature of things. Most of us try to document with links, but someone's OPINION is a very important thing, particularly in america.
I do encourage you to continue participation. I do not hope to alter your opinion in any way, nor do I seek a change in mine. I just like the chat.

Listen and learn... I have. Like in 'curved' college course, you toss out the high and low marks and go with the median. Most of us are in there.

Again, welcome. You seem to have a mind. That's what we want here.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 07:23 AM
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It's not the right-wing or left-wing opinions that are of concern. It's the racist, genocidal hate-speech.

Be careful you don't call someone a derogatory name on these boards, but hate-speech against anyone is most welcome...



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 07:34 AM
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Thanks to everyone who made this thread an intelligent discussion!

For most of the time i visit discussion boards that deal with potentially "inflammatory" topics such as liberal vs conservatives, iraq war etc. i tend to be a lurker, just reading people's opinions. This time i felt that i should really share what i think.

It is true that the net is a place for everyone to voice their opinions. However some opinions tend to snowball until it becomes a fact in some peoples's mind. Perhaps that is the flaw of free speech. Opinions masquerading as fact and becoming an established truth.

I agree that voicing your opinion regarding a topic is not to be subjected to a right or wrong test. Instead it should be left to the poster as how to "shape" his/her words to make it as acceptable to as many people as possible.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 07:42 AM
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Originally posted by periwinkle blue
sorry if the discussions you've entered seem slanted
more the the right than the left.

Why? Is the left better than the right?

quote from Janus -

there does seem to be a lot of extreme views by some Americans

Really? I find there to be MANY more extreme views held by anti-Americans
than any other 'group'. When facts are posted that show the right is right
in a situation - 'poof' it is called extreme. But when we hear junk like
- 'Nazi America' 'Bush = Hitler' 'GITMO = Gulag' (all of which are wrong)
then it's okay.

thaei - you asked for proof that you are wrong. My answer to you is just
look at the board. You are MUCH more likely to find junk like how
wonderful Amnesty International is for wanting G.W. Bush arrested
(stupid) than you are to find a thread calling for America to nuke
North Korea. You claim to be 'an internationalist'. That's fine for
you but frankly there is nothing wrong with people being proud of
their nationality and heritage an you'll find that some folks find the
term 'internationalist' a threat to their heritage. Considering that you
are an 'Internationalist', perhaps you are just over sensitive to those
very few posts that have gone over the top to the right and you don't
see the vast numbers of those that go over the top to the left. Also,
since Dr. Horicaid was banned, I have not seen many of the so-called
'extreme right' threads that you are talking about.



[edit on 6/23/2005 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 07:54 AM
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Why? Is the left better than the right?


Nope as anyone who blindly labels themselves (or others) with this left/right or conservative/liberal crap cannot think for themselves.

Make your own mind up for gods sake! Don't be compartmentalised as this will inherently restrict your thinking....

Oh....And Flyersfan, welcome as the first rabid, world-blowing-up American on this thread
...



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 07:56 AM
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Now then FlyersFan you are taking what i said out of context. I said seem i did not say that there are a lot of extreme stuff coming from Americans.
And i did not attack or demean anything any American has said on this board.
If you read what i said you will see that i was defending some of the extreme stuff that sometimes comes on these boards by trying to give a rational for it, also i was defending a persons right to free speech on the Internet, the truth is people can say and have opinions about what they what here on ATS thats the beauty of the Internet.
If you do a search of my past posts you will also see that i am far from ant- American



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
Now then FlyersFan you are taking what i said out of context.

Okay. I apologize if I did so. It seemed to me to be saying
something different. You've explained it. Okay.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Janus
Now then FlyersFan you are taking what i said out of context.

Okay. I apologize if I did so. It seemed to me to be saying
something different. You've explained it. Okay.


Thats ok mate, no harm done



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by stumason
Flyersfan, welcome as the first rabid, world-blowing-up
American on this thread
...


yeah right
I post facts that show GITMO doesn't equal GULAG
and I'm labeled a 'world-blowing-up' American.
Okay ..
whatever. The American part is correct



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 08:02 AM
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Originally posted by Janus
Thats ok mate, no harm done

Techinical question ... I'm a girl. So am I still a mate?
Or is there a different (nice) term ya'll use for girls ??




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