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Why Argue if the Hebrew God is Omnipotent!?

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posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 05:56 PM
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Wikipedia definition:
Omnipotence (literally, "all power") is power with no limits or inexhaustible, in other words, unlimited power. This trait is usually attributed only to God. Theists hold that examples of God's omnipotence include Creation and miracles.

Although it is commonplace to describe the Hebrew God using the term omnipotent, it is incorrect.



Genesis 3:9
9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

Genesis 4:9
9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?"


If the Hebrew God is, in fact, omnipotent then there is no reason that he wouldn't know where Adam or Abel are. Some people might say that you can't take these quotes literally, but if not, how should they be taken?

Should they be taken in the sense of God is asking where Adam is in a fashion to let Adam know that he is angry at him; or is God asking Cain where Abel is to give Cain the opportunity to come clean?

Also, how can the Hebrew God be omnipotent if he can't seem to make up his mind about how he should guide and direct the Israelites? when the Hebrew God made the Noahic covenant he told Noah that he was to eliminate all of mankind excluding Noah and his family. He was starting again with a clean slate.

That didn't seem to work, there was still evil within humanity so he called upon Abram and made a covenant with him - Abrahamic covenant. The idea here was that Abraham was to take his family away from the corrupt cities and they were to worship only the god of Abraham. If this was followed Abraham's god was to make Abraham a father of a great nation.

When this didn't work he delivered the Ten Commandments to Moses and made the Mosaic covenant which told them that they would be brought into the promise land if the Israelites followed the law their god had set in front of them.

In conclusion:There are many other instances within the Bible that point to the fact that the Hebrew God does not fit the title, which by the way is a Greek title, of omnipotent. If the Hebrew God was omnipotent he would have known where Adam and Abel were. He also wouldn't have had to try out several different approaches to directing/guiding his chosen people if he was all powerful; he would have known which direction to take.

I am not trying to put down either side, I am only attempting to represent the facts as acurately as I can.

[note: All biblical quotes are from a New American Standard Bible]



JAK

posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 06:27 PM
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As an example the asking of a question whilst knowing the answer you could take a parent and child, which might be quite apt here.

Upon entering a kitchen a parent might see all the sweets gone. Looking at their young child, knowing that they were the only other person in the house and seeing chocolate all around their mouth the question that would most likely be asked is 'Did you eat all those sweets?' [To which the majority would probably reply 'No.'
]

Could it be that, as in the case above, the question was not posed in order so that the one asking would become enlightened as to the answer, but for another purpose?

Jak



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 07:01 PM
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Couple of reasons for this.
As JAK has stated, God like the parent is basically checking to see how truthful the child (man) is. Will the child tell the truth or will the child lie?
Also remember that Adam and Eve partook of the tree of Knowledge. As such, they (mankind) now has a "free-will) for which God is allowing. But just as in the parent child, the parent can only allow the child to disobey before punishment has to be dealt.
God's decisions in the past (at least in the Old Testament), has been to save a few and wipe the slate clean.
According to the new testament though, this will not be the way that he will deal with man in the future. The next time will be the End of Times and the Relevation.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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Previously posted by JAK
As an example the asking of a question whilst knowing the answer you could take a parent and child, which might be quite apt here.


This is essentially what I was alluding to; the parent-child scenario. However, I am not able to find anything scripturally to support the idea that the Hebrew God knew of their actions until they confessed.



God's decisions in the past (at least in the Old Testament), has been to save a few and wipe the slate clean.


As for Kenshiro's added discussion on the Hebrew's God's decision making in the Old Testament I would have to contend that he is wrong. Only once does the Bible depict the Hebrew God saving a few and wiping the slate clean. And that was part of the Noahic covenant which I have already talked about.



Genesis 9:11 New American Standard Bible
11"I establish My covenant with you; and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth."


Although this covenant specifically states that their god won't destroy the world by means of water again, I cannot recall their god ever wiping the slate clean again. He does in fact, as I mentioned in my initial post, seem to change his method of directing/guiding the Israelites.

If he does in fact change his methods I would contend that this means that he is limited by not knowing how to most effectively approach the Israelites (referring to the aforementioned definition of omnipotence) and therefore cannot be classified as omnipotent.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 03:32 PM
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Howard, Sorry if you did not like my response.
The reason that I origionally used the save a few and wipe the slateclean reference for the old testament is twofold.
first, in accordance to genisis 1: 28



And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Notice, the wording here. It says to replenish the eartn and not to just populate the earth. Although the bible does not go into why there is a need to replenish and what may have happened to any prior inhabitants, it seems logical due to the wording that there were a people here before.

The second reason that I qualified my statement as pertaining to the old testament it self as in the new testament, god is suppose to be a more gentle and forgiving god.
Sorry, if you may have misunderstood me



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 01:26 AM
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Out of all of the different translations, only the KJV and ASV use the word replenish. Only referencing one translation and then using a particular word out of that translation (which by the way is in the minority regarding this verse) is a somewhat careless response. Therefore, I am disregarding this part of your counter argument.



Previously posted by kenshiro2012
The second reason that I qualified my statement as pertaining to the old testament it self as in the new testament, god is suppose to be a more gentle and forgiving god


I don't understand how this relates to my assertation that the Hebrew God cannot be omnipotent because of my aforementioned reasons. I will disregard this part of your counter argument as well.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 03:17 AM
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Perhaps, all powerful also means that God is capable of being everything less than powerful also. You have to conclude that all powerful does not mean that God has to use his all-powerfullness and omniscience all the time. It never states (in the Bible) that in our present world that God has to show hisself in his glory. In fact, this aspect of God is reserved until a later time when he is revealed in all his splendor to us. So your argument that God is not omniscient because he changes mind, or does not know something, is based on how he says we percieve him now in a physical state. The bible clearly states that we are under a curse and Satan, and thus cannot phathom and know the true nature of God currently, therefore, we cannot judge his nature based on our current information. He states that he will be revealed in the future.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 09:08 AM
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perhaps the bible storys are just that,storys, jesus used parables to explain difficult consepts to those he preached to, why wouldn't god also use this device.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 09:20 AM
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"Where is your brother Abel" is a rhetorical question. We do the same thing all the time and ask questions that we know the answer to. Sure, God could have just killed Cain, or kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden without saying a word, but he wanted our involvement in his decisions. These are examples of God tipping his hand and giving us an inside peek into his character and His high regard for people.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by be91061
Perhaps, all powerful also means that God is capable of being everything less than powerful also. You have to conclude that all powerful does not mean that God has to use his all-powerfullness and omniscience all the time.


This is an interesting concept that balances mine very well; however, due to the theological nature of the nature of god discussion, my opinion and your opinion are only able to balance out. Neither argument tips the scale one way or the other.

If you have any additional information on why you believe that he is omnipotent...credible information, not just personal theory; but dialogue from a biblical commentary or something of the sort, that would be very helpful.



Originally posted by be91061
The bible clearly states that we are under a curse and Satan, and thus cannot phathom and know the true nature of God currently, therefore, we cannot judge his nature based on our current information. He states that he will be revealed in the future.


To uphold an academic atmosphere, at minimum, whenever one claims that something is clearly stated or even just stated it is essential that one includes a source. And when the source has numerous versions such as the Bible an indication of which version was referenced would help make this forum a whole lot cleaner.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by Howard the Dolphin

Originally posted by be91061
Perhaps, all powerful also means that God is capable of being everything less than powerful also. You have to conclude that all powerful does not mean that God has to use his all-powerfullness and omniscience all the time.


This is an interesting concept that balances mine very well; however, due to the theological nature of the nature of god discussion, my opinion and your opinion are only able to balance out. Neither argument tips the scale one way or the other.

If you have any additional information on why you believe that he is omnipotent...credible information, not just personal theory; but dialogue from a biblical commentary or something of the sort, that would be very helpful.


Forgive me if I did not take your topic as serious as you wanted me to respond to it. I admit, I do not have any evidence that God is omnipotent. In fact, as a Christian, I do not have any evidence that Jesus existed or even God exists. I do not offer proofs of what I believe, because after extensive study, I can find none, that any of the things the Bible says is true. There is no tangible evidence of it, only circumstantial evidence. There is no solid proof of Christianity - that it is evidence that anything that God says is true. I will not say here that God does exist, and any of his attributes. It is unprovable. Nevertheless, the Bible does say that only by faith can we please God or even believe in Jesus as our sacrifice. This is true, because we cannot prove that it actually happened or if God's nature says that this is what he actually intended for us. All we actually have is a very old book with a story of the struggle of man with God and how we can be redeemed. That is all we have. No person actually has proof of what you are saying and anyone who says otherwise is pretty much a fool. Our redemption, in my belief is based upon a faith of what we cannot see. Every religion is like this. Every one of them claims a salvation because of believing in a certain thing. Which one is correct? I do not know, because none of them has any solid truth to them.

I guess the bottom line for me and many others, whether they will admit to it or not, is that I would rather live my life believing that the state of the universe will somehow be reconciled in all manners to perfection than I would in living my life believing that we die and that is the end of it. In fact, I always go to the extremes in my views, so it is probably a good thing that I didn't believe my current life is the only one I will ever have and I should live it to it's fullness, or I would probably reorganize my time into figuring out the best ways to screw anyone and everyone over to make the most gains in my time here.








Originally posted by be91061
The bible clearly states that we are under a curse and Satan, and thus cannot phathom and know the true nature of God currently, therefore, we cannot judge his nature based on our current information. He states that he will be revealed in the future.


To uphold an academic atmosphere, at minimum, whenever one claims that something is clearly stated or even just stated it is essential that one includes a source. And when the source has numerous versions such as the Bible an indication of which version was referenced would help make this forum a whole lot cleaner.


It is pretty much pointless to quote the bible, in that for every statement it makes, it always has another that contradicts this. I am not a foolish Christian to admit that the words of the Bible or what it quotes God saying is true, when in the very next sentence it will state something otherwise. So far as faith goes, the bible offers no evidence, one way or another of how God would act in his own little world. It does in fact tell us how God would act in our world - just like us. The bible depicts the actions of God not unfamiliar to how any dictator would act. God offers no good reasons in words or actions that he is something we should follow by his leadership as recorded in the bible. The only thing I can say is that Jesus' recorded statements about the nature of God would probably be more believeable of what we would expect of a divine entity, however, these are just his words and there is no proof he can redeem your soul if you believe in what he said. It still has to be taken by faith.

Hopefully, this gives you some insight into what you are really asking of people. I think you may get some more posters who will try and debate you with some proof that God has to be omniscient, but you know as well as I that they have no proof. I think you either want to just debate for the fun of it or maybe you really want to find some proof for the ease of your mind, but I think you will not find anything. I think that you need to make up your mind of what you want to believe and keep pursuing it until you are satisfied. I do not believe that anyone other than yourself and whatever it is that comes to inspire you will make a difference in what you believe. If there is a God who knows what you are thinking and what you want, then perhaps he will lead you to this or that religion, but ulltimately, the struggle will always be if you live your life according to what you believe is true.

Our ultimate truth will probably lie in the moment we reach the point of death and hopefully have the opportunity to wonder if we had our crap together or not. That, to me is more meaningful as a state of mind than being wishy washy through life trying to 'figure it all out'. Believe me, many people have tried to figure out a complete satisfactory evidence of God and how they should live their lives, only to go insane. My best advice that I have ever came up with out of the entire bible and Jesus words are to live your life through everyone else's eyes while trying to satisfy your basic needs as a human being. Whenever I overstep the bounds of either of these basic rules, I either screw myself or somene else. This is the essential message that Jesus taught - love thy neighbor as thy self and love your God with all your heart. Of course, you are still trying to either find truth or just have fun, so I will leave it up to you to make up your mind what you want to do.

If you were a believing satanist and had your philosophy squarely pegged, I would give you more credibility than a Christian who speaks of truths, but yet is a hypocrite.

Good luck, and I will be watching the future posts on this thread for my entertainment.



posted on Jun, 25 2005 @ 01:52 PM
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God has to be real. when you wake up on sunday you feel real groggy and depressed. they call sunday the lazy day. this is because church is on sunday, and sunday is the day of satan where his spirit is more alive as opposed to any other day. The Sabbath day of the Lord is really on saturday.



posted on Jun, 26 2005 @ 03:07 AM
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Originally posted by DMK25
God has to be real. when you wake up on sunday you feel real groggy and depressed. they call sunday the lazy day. this is because church is on sunday, and sunday is the day of satan where his spirit is more alive as opposed to any other day. The Sabbath day of the Lord is really on saturday.


There is no proof of God being real. It is only a theory and a strongly held belief. Do not make a claim that something has to be real unless you can back it up in a thread like this.

God never said what day of the week the Sabbath is. Where do you get that it is Saturday or Sunday? Who says this is so? Also, what evidence do you have that Satan's spirit is more alive on a Sunday?



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by DMK25
God has to be real. when you wake up on sunday you feel real groggy and depressed. they call sunday the lazy day. this is because church is on sunday, and sunday is the day of satan where his spirit is more alive as opposed to any other day. The Sabbath day of the Lord is really on saturday.


There is no proof of God being real. It is only a theory and a strongly held belief. Do not make a claim that something has to be real unless you can back it up in a thread like this.

God never said what day of the week the Sabbath is. Where do you get that it is Saturday or Sunday? Who says this is so? Also, what evidence do you have that Satan's spirit is more alive on a Sunday?


I have to agree with ben on this...that was a pretty useless and transparent addition to this thread. This is one of the types of posts that irritate me.



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 04:29 AM
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I am not trying to put down either side, I am only attempting to represent the facts as acurately as I can.


Why does a court of law ask you your name? For the record.
What is a rhetorical question?
That is.

Better yet...

Why did God ask cain where his brother was? Why that day?

Why did your parents ask you if you were hangin out with that kid your not supposed to hang out with, after they saw you hangin out with him?

In conclusion, the kangaroo court is no longer in session. Case dismissed



posted on Aug, 8 2005 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by Howard the Dolphin

Originally posted by ben91069

Originally posted by DMK25
God has to be real. when you wake up on sunday you feel real groggy and depressed. they call sunday the lazy day. this is because church is on sunday, and sunday is the day of satan where his spirit is more alive as opposed to any other day. The Sabbath day of the Lord is really on saturday.


There is no proof of God being real. It is only a theory and a strongly held belief. Do not make a claim that something has to be real unless you can back it up in a thread like this.

God never said what day of the week the Sabbath is. Where do you get that it is Saturday or Sunday? Who says this is so? Also, what evidence do you have that Satan's spirit is more alive on a Sunday?


I have to agree with ben on this...that was a pretty useless and transparent addition to this thread. This is one of the types of posts that irritate me.



quote///
God never said what day of the week the Sabbath is. Where do you get that it is Saturday or Sunday? Who says this is so?
Of course it is in the Bible!





(Mat. 26:1-16; Mark 14:1-11; Luke 22:1-6).Mat. 26:1-16; Mark 14:1-11; Luke 22:1-6).

Having concluded the above sermons to His disciples,
the Lord predicted the fast approaching hour of His sufferings on the cross through the words narrated by Evangelist Matthew only: “You know that after two days is the Passover,
and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.” The feast of Pascha(Easter-for those that don't know)began on the evening of 14Th of Nisan,” which fell that year on a Friday (see John 19:14): we can conclude from this,
that these words were uttered either on Tuesday night or on Wednesday.

Passover was the greatest and most triumphant feast among the Jews.
It was celebrated in memory of the liberation of Jews from Egyptian bondage. The word itself “pascha” is a derivative from the Jewish “peisah,” which means: “pass by,” “spare” in memory of that moment,
when after killing the Egyptian first-born,
the Angel walked past all those Jewish houses that had their door jambs and cross-beams smeared with the blood of a sacrificial lamb,
thereby sparing the Jewish first-born (Exo. Chp. 12).
In conjunction with the feast day of “Unleavened Bread,” which began on the second day of Passover.
The Passover itself was celebrated for 8 days — from the evening of the 14th to the 21st in the month of Nisan, which corresponds with the end of March and the beginning of April.
On the 10th day of Nisan, the heads of families had to select a one-year-old lamb, free of any defects. Then on the 14th day, it was prepared according to established practice, sacrificed in the courtyard of the sanctuary and baked. During the Passover celebrations, in memory of the original smearing of doorjambs and crossbeams with blood, the sacrificial table was sprinkled with the blood of the slaughtered lamb. That’s why the lamb was sacrificed near the tabernacle, and then within the temple.

The High Priests Decision to Kill Christ


The reason God asks quote///quote:
Genesis 3:9
9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"


Genesis 4:9
9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?"


It is not because He does not know!
It is because, He has given man free will and hopes to get a CONFESSION from them......He allows them to choose with their free will ......He does not force this upon them, but surely knows what they have done........
By asking He is waiting for a confession .....before He allows judgement on them.
It's like breaking the law......we are allowed a hearing before we are sentenced....Although the sentence here on earth is Temporarily, the Judgement of God at the end of the World will be ETERNAL......
As we judge others, so also God will judge us at the end of days...If we condemn others, so also will God condemn us....

For with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again (St. Matthew 7:2); and: If ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive you (St. Matthew 6:15).
Not Judging Others or Remembering Wrongs

IX
helen

[edit on 8/8/2005 by helen670]



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by Howard the Dolphin
when the Hebrew God made the Noahic covenant he told Noah that he was to eliminate all of mankind excluding Noah and his family. He was starting again with a clean slate.

That didn't seem to work, there was still evil within humanity so he called upon Abram and made a covenant with him - Abrahamic covenant. The idea here was that Abraham was to take his family away from the corrupt cities and they were to worship only the god of Abraham. If this was followed Abraham's god was to make Abraham a father of a great nation.

When this didn't work he delivered the Ten Commandments to Moses and made the Mosaic covenant which told them that they would be brought into the promise land if the Israelites followed the law their god had set in front of them.


Let's focus on this part of my original questions: The change in tactics of the Hebrew god from the Noahic covenant to the Mosaic covenant.

The Noahic covenant can be represented by a clean plate where Noah and his family were placed to replenish the land. The Abrahamic covenant can be represented by a dirty plate on which Abraham and his family moved to the edge to get away from the uncleanliness of the rest of the plate.

The Mosaic covenant can be represented by placing some dish soap in the middle of the plate and hoping that it would spread itself around and clean the plate.

These are three distinctly seperate approaches to solving the problem of having the Hebrew god's people follow him. I have my own opinion on why, from the Judeo-Christian point of view, these different approaches are used.

What are your thoughts?



posted on Aug, 9 2005 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by Howard the Dolphin

Originally posted by Howard the Dolphin
Noahic covenant

Abram and made a covenant with him - Abrahamic covenant.

Mosaic covenant


Let's focus on this part of my original questions: The change in tactics of the Hebrew god from the Noahic covenant to the Mosaic covenant.


What are your thoughts?

Snipped and emphasis added

Genesis 3:15
You might be over analyzing



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