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Where were the doctors at Abu Ghraib?

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posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 10:30 PM
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Originally posted by Army

The Arab culture is ALL ABOUT mental games played on one another. Almost any gesture is considered an insult; don't hold your hand juuuust right when talking...an insult. Use your LEFT hand in what they consider an inappropriate manner...an insult. Somehow show the bottom of your feet....an insult. Speak to his wife without asking permission...an insult. Tussle his childs hair without asking....an insult. LOOK at his wife/wives in any way HE may feel is inappropriate....an insult. Refuse his offer of food, no mater how disgusting to you...an insult. Clean your plate of food while eating...an insult. Give him a gift that he cannot match in return...an insult.

And on and on and on.



Think it's called culture dude, sure he'd find your culture pretty disgusting too! That's the wierd thing about the world - it's so dammned un-American! At least 50% of the stuff you mention goes for at least half the World.

As an uninvited guest think you could try a little harder to appreciate their ways




posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 12:35 AM
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Its a damn war, not a freakin human rights activist convention- they gotta do what the gotta do- and NO our soldiers do not do what the terrorists do- they just crack their mind which CAN heal, and WILL not damage them physically. It is perfectly acceptable to do psychological torture on them- "if you cant do the time, dont do the crime"



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 12:43 AM
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Couldn't be too disgusting, when we saw so many trying to be just like us....hat on backward/sideways. Latest version of bootleg Nike's. Blue jeans. Shoes WITH socks. Latest slang they could interpret; "What up Immam dawg?". Huge bragging rights, is owning any American car, preferably a Crown Vic.

Their culture is from the 14th century, their mindset is also 14th century.

Again, I don't care. The REAL bad guys are being dealt with in prison. For the most part, those who do not want us in Iraq, and are busy killing anyone in the way, are not even Iraqi. THOSE people are the majority in Abu Ghraib.

*"we're" the bad guys...sheesh*



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by Army
So, one guy, looking at pictures, has concluded that ALL the medical personnel at the Ghraib have lied, and are still lying, about the so-called torture?

All I have seen, is naked terrs in a pile, and an really ugly chick laughing at small dicks. Anybody got any REAL torture proof, other than this juvenile behavior?

Dear Mister ARMY - Have you ever in Your Life and Your Service Read the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, Adopted on 12 August 1949 by the Diplomatic Conference for the Establishment of
International Conventions for the Protection of Victims of War?

I would think NOT.

Lets do this now, shall we?



Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.


2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

Sorry Mister Army, but just by Humiliating the Prisoners you are in Violation with the Convention - and I wont even Mention what ELSE Soliders did to these Prionsers.

Not to Mention the dear old DOCTORS that stood by and Smiled.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by horten229v3
Look the United States government reserves the right to 'bend" the constitution in times of trouble- so this doctor was allowed to "shorcut" things and do stuff that wasnt legal bc it possibly could protect the lives of Americans in times of war.

Excuse me?

US goverment reserves the Right to BEND the Constitution?

And what gives YOU that RIGHT?

Are you some kind of SuperHuman, or shall I say Uber-Mensch?

And spare me the "protect the lives of Americans in times of war".

You are NOT at WAR - your soldiers are Invading Foreign countires, and YES there is WAR "down there in Arabia" - but you dont ever care for what goes on, because its too Friggin Far from you to even FEEL it.

If you are such a Brave Young Lad, why dont you go down there in good old Iraq and show your Patriotism where its most needed?



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:00 AM
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Originally posted by Army
The Arab culture is ALL ABOUT mental games played on one another. Almost any gesture is considered an insult; don't hold your hand juuuust right when talking...an insult. Use your LEFT hand in what they consider an inappropriate manner...an insult. Somehow show the bottom of your feet....an insult. Speak to his wife without asking permission...an insult. Tussle his childs hair without asking....an insult. LOOK at his wife/wives in any way HE may feel is inappropriate....an insult. Refuse his offer of food, no mater how disgusting to you...an insult. Clean your plate of food while eating...an insult. Give him a gift that he cannot match in return...an insult.

Mental Games?

Geezus, are they Teaching you that in the Army?



Such nice Brainwashing you have dear Sargeant.

I undestand that dear Army must Training you, just like a nervous pitbull, that is prepared to bite everytime he even hears the word "Muslim" or "Arabs".

Suddenly ALL Muslims are Terrroists, they play "Mental Games" and they definetly are Less Human then the Western People.

Here is a Quick Lesson: Arab Culture has been Prospering this Area we call Middle East Thousands of Years before America was even discovered, and Europe was a bunch of Hungry Butchers and Wild Men. There was a Big Culture developed here, with advanced Astrology, Medicine, Philosophy, Mathematics (if you dont know, the ARABS invented the ARABS numbers, that we all use today, otherwise we would still write in dear old Roman I, II, III's). Their Culture Deserves RESPECT - but clearly that is not what they are getting from your side.

What is your opinion on Saudi Arabia? A country that BURNS Bibles? Oh wait a minute, Prince of Saud is Your presidents Best Buddy, and Ofcourse your opinion on Saudi Arabia is GREAT and Wonderfull!

Frankly I am not surprised at all with your answers - Typcal Military Propaganda speaking.

[edit on 23/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:18 AM
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Shall we Visit a Photo Gallery People?

[billandkent.com...

Some more Quotes from Prisoners:

"They said we will make you wish to die and it will not happen [...] They stripped me naked. One of them told me he would rape me. He drew a picture of a woman to my back and makes me stand in shameful position holding my buttocks." — Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik, detainee No. 151362

"'Do you pray to Allah?' one asked. I said yes. They said, '[Expletive] you. And [expletive] him.' One of them said, 'You are not getting out of here health[y], you are getting out of here handicapped. And he said to me, 'Are you married?' I said, 'Yes.' They said, 'If your wife saw you like this, she will be disappointed.' One of them said, 'But if I saw her now she would not be disappointed now because I would rape her.'" [...] "They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive." [...] "I said to him, 'I believe in Allah.' So he said, 'But I believe in torture and I will torture you.'" — Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik [3]

Taguba's report cited numerous examples of inmate abuse, including:

- Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet.
- Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees.
- Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing.
- Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time.
- Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear.
- Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped.
- Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them.
- Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture.
- A detainee forced to stand on boxesWriting "I am a Rapest" [sic] on the leg of a detainee alleged to have raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked.
- Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture.
- A male MP guard raping a female detainee.
- Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees and MPs posing with cheerful looks.
- Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees.
- Threatening detainees with a loaded 9mm pistol.
- Pouring cold water on naked detainees.
- Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair.
- Threatening male detainees with rape.
- Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell.
- Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
- Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting and severely injuring a detainee.

Well Sargeant thats a Long List.

Are you going to Deny every Point?

Or do you think this is NOT Torture at all?

Bad Guys should be treated Bad huh?

Screw the Conventions and International Laws!


Sources:

Abu Gharib Torture - Wikipedia

Geneva Convention

Any Similarities?

www.ushmm.org...

[edit on 23/6/05 by Souljah]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by Army
*"we're" the bad guys...sheesh*

Thats the Only Thing I Agree with, that You said in All of Your Posts.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 11:18 AM
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Originally posted by Army
You mean we might upset the tender psyche of the bad guys? Why, how terrible would that be? Golly, they might even get goose bumps from the anticipation of being looked at by a *gasp* female Soldier! Ohhhhh, the humanityyyyyy!

With respect sergeant , you and I both know that it doesnt matter who the bad guys are, you treat them with respect.
Why?
Because it shows that your better than them.




Get real, the Ghraib is full of bad people. Hell, I even sent a few dozen their myself, after they were caught dropping mortars on coalition troops. I don't give a damn if they are "psycologically" maltreated, they're in PRISON, not Club Med.

I am sick of hearing this "i dont care" bull , when is anyone going to wake up and relise you NEED to care.
Tell me sergeant what would the response be by the world if the army or any armed services didnt follow any rules about prisnors?


The Arab culture is ALL ABOUT mental games played on one another. Almost any gesture is considered an insult; don't hold your hand juuuust right when talking...an insult. Use your LEFT hand in what they consider an inappropriate manner...an insult. Somehow show the bottom of your feet....an insult. Speak to his wife without asking permission...an insult. Tussle his childs hair without asking....an insult. LOOK at his wife/wives in any way HE may feel is inappropriate....an insult. Refuse his offer of food, no mater how disgusting to you...an insult. Clean your plate of food while eating...an insult. Give him a gift that he cannot match in return...an insult.

And on and on and on.

Tough twinkies, the bad guys will be treated as bad guys in prison.

Theres a diffrence between being treated like a bad guy and being tortured, since when does the US army approve of torture sergeant?
If a soldier kills a civilian and is arrested , do we treat him the same?
After all he is a bad guy right, the same type of bad guy your shooting at..



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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There were so many thing I wanted to say in this thread...but they've all been covered very well...


You have voted Souljah for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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where' the outrage when a terrorist bombs a police station, hospital or school ?



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by syrinx high priest
where' the outrage when a terrorist bombs a police station, hospital or school ?


Who said there was no outrage at these types of actions? I think we all agree that these types of actions are dispicable, cowardly, and outrageous.


Uma

posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Just a word on the death of detainees. I was discussing this with a friend of mine, who happens to be a doctor, and I asked him about the causes of death and whether they were by torture etc.

He said that heart attack is the most likely death by torture. Most guards/interregaters would know not to crack someone's head open. They use more subtle techniques to "cause distress." He said that if someone talked during an interrogation, that other prisoners are likely to kill the guy who talked.

I would like to point out that this guy is from a family of military doctors and is familiar with this issue, but I have heard similar things from older family members who are familar with early 20th century police torture techniques. It is not pleasant.

Also, he said that he knows of many cases where doctors are forced by the family to change the cause of death on a death certificate. He said that there are many deaths due to alchoholism that are listed as "heart failure" for example because families don't want it on record that grampa died of alchohol poisoning.

I guess everyone is corrupt these days...



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 05:18 PM
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Souljah, I'll write this slow, since you, apparantly, cannot read fast.

In YOUR post "THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES". Know what that means? It means those parties that have declared formal war. We are there under UN auspices, enforcing the 17+ resolutions and to bringing the war on terrorism to the bad guys front yard....so he won't kill you in your back yard.

Geneva Accords do not apply. The USA does not condone torture in the classic sense

Those pics you linked to...as I said, high school level hazing. The one bloody knee fellow has just been brought in after a fight. His knee was attended to by prison medics, and he continued to battle. Notice the soldier leaning over him is in battle gear, not just a T-shirt and DCU cap. The other fellow in the ice is the one who died from the heart attack. His visible injuries are from battle outside the green zone in Baghdad. The ice is to keep him from decomposing too quickly in the 140F heat. The Soldiers leaning over his body and grinning, are being dorks. Any prisoner held by the US, and wearing an orange jump suit, is a very bad guy, usually found with a smoking gun in hand...which is why they are in prison. Dogs to control prisoners are used in every country.

Your vitriol and condenscending attitude toward me is funny, especially from someone who seems to have a solid opinion....without having all the evidence. I was there for 15 months, seen it, lived it, got shot at, and shot back. I worked with the local populace, and dined at their homes. I trained alongside the ING, and came to appreciate their dedication to freedom for their country.....which they gushingly thank the USA for. My opinions come from living life at the point of contact, not looking at a computer screen.

What do you have, other than links to BS sites filled with uneducated theories and opinions? Why is there nothing in your profile? Afraid we might find out you are really 14 years old, and get your lifes experience from secret porno sites? What exactly do you do, to have such perfect knowledge of nothing?

I really HAVE been there, I really HAVE done that. Can you honestly say the same?


dh

posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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It's pure crap
Anybody who for a minute accepts the official exposition is a dupe, a sap, a dumbass, contolled by those in control
Whatever power do you assume to yourself by association with those in power and their tall tales
They are truly taking the piss out of your credulity
Grow up and into your infinite self
Give it up for the Grids sake

[edit on 23-6-2005 by dh]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 11:44 PM
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It's pure crap
Anybody who for a minute accepts the official exposition is a dupe, a sap, a dumbass, contolled by those in control


Um... and we should believe you because..........................?
You need to get out of your cocoon where everything is big government conspiracy and where everyone is out to get you, and step into the real world, when you do pleas tell us how it went. Be careful in the real world theory and speculation without proof is considers worthless.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by Army
Souljah, I'll write this slow, since you, apparantly, cannot read fast.

Thank You Sir for such Kind Words.



In YOUR post "THE HIGH CONTRACTING PARTIES". Know what that means? It means those parties that have declared formal war. We are there under UN auspices, enforcing the 17+ resolutions and to bringing the war on terrorism to the bad guys front yard....so he won't kill you in your back yard.

Bad Guys Front Yard?

And Where is That? Iraq? Iran? Syria

Who really ARE the Bad Guys?

Those Dudes with Towels Around Their Heads?

Yesterday Communists - Today Muslim Terrorists - Who is to going to be Tomorrow?

But HEY, I Understand - the Army needs to Fight Somewhere and to drop all those neato bombs filled with Uranium, and to shoot all those fancy missiles and to use all those kinky stealth airplanes.

Thats why YOU Are there For.

And THE TERRORISTS are ALREADY in your Backyard - oh wait a Minute, they are Actually in the Living Room, dining with your Faimily!



Geneva Accords do not apply.

Ofcouse they DONT.

We have seen that with our own eyes.

I agree with that for a change.



Those pics you linked to...as I said, high school level hazing. The one bloody knee fellow has just been brought in after a fight. His knee was attended to by prison medics, and he continued to battle. Notice the soldier leaning over him is in battle gear, not just a T-shirt and DCU cap. The other fellow in the ice is the one who died from the heart attack. His visible injuries are from battle outside the green zone in Baghdad. The ice is to keep him from decomposing too quickly in the 140F heat. The Soldiers leaning over his body and grinning, are being dorks. Any prisoner held by the US, and wearing an orange jump suit, is a very bad guy, usually found with a smoking gun in hand...which is why they are in prison. Dogs to control prisoners are used in every country.

Tell me something Sir - what would you say if the Tables would be turned?

And there were AMERICAN Prisoners being tortured and Photographed?

What if their Basic Human Rights were Taken Away?

Would you say that it was "High School Level Hazing" also or would that Pictures acutally Piss you off?

But as long as there are some Bearded Men, that were SUPPOSED to be Terrorists, hey its Fine to Torture and Abuse them!



Your vitriol and condenscending attitude toward me is funny, especially from someone who seems to have a solid opinion....without having all the evidence. I was there for 15 months, seen it, lived it, got shot at, and shot back. I worked with the local populace, and dined at their homes. I trained alongside the ING, and came to appreciate their dedication to freedom for their country.....which they gushingly thank the USA for. My opinions come from living life at the point of contact, not looking at a computer screen.

Wow, you are Such a Noble and Great Man.

And You still think this CRAP called War on Terror is Working?

And that Iraq is not Free and Liberated?

With hundreds People dying a Week, its now Safe and Mission Accomplished?

I dont just look at the Computers Screen - we here have also Newspapers and Books and stuff like that to Educate Ourselves, you know.



What do you have, other than links to BS sites filled with uneducated theories and opinions? Why is there nothing in your profile? Afraid we might find out you are really 14 years old, and get your lifes experience from secret porno sites? What exactly do you do, to have such perfect knowledge of nothing?

You can call them BS Sites filled with Theores - still wont stop the Truth coming out.

And whats in My Profiles is MY Concern - what were You Looking for Sarge?

If you are Interested, why dont you ask Me? Or is SPYING your best Technique?

And Sir, Please, dont Kill the Messenger - why are You attacking ME here?

Is there really need for Immature Insults, that makes me wonder how old YOU are.

Sir, I dont think we can "Come Togather" here.

You are clearly quite the Opposite of me, and this wont work.

You approve of Abu Gharib - I dont.

You approve of War on Terror - I dont.

So I completly Understand why you are Furious when reading posts like mine.

And you wont change my Mind nor my Opinion on this - and I wont change Yours either.

I respect Your Opinion as a Soldier in the US Army, and I expect you would Respect mine in Return, without any Immature Insults.

As I said before - I am not suprised by your Answers at all.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by sensfan
There were so many thing I wanted to say in this thread...but they've all been covered very well...


You have voted Souljah for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Thank You Very Much!




posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 08:42 AM
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hey souljah ( I liked the rasta avatar better)

do you surf the net looking for anti american topics ? your bias is so obvious its hard to take your posts seriously. Its a shame because you're smart and compassionate, but I wonder why the obsession with US foreign policy ? is it really that different than any super power at any time in human history ? May I humbly submit your focus should be on human nature, not US foreign policy ? I won't waste space by listing dozens of examples, but the sad reality is humans have demonstrated an unparalleled aptitude for two things in our history......breeding and killing, and the US hardly has a monoploy on either





posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Interrogations have saved countless lives throughout history and has been vital in every single war situation throughout history.

Since apparently interrogations are considered torture now by people like Souljah, I've very curious to how would you gather critical war time intelligence from prisoners?
Bake them cookies and ask them nicely?



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