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BUSINESS: Canada's Health Care under NAFTA

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posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 06:51 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

Thoughts?



Sounds like a bit of an exageration to my Seekerof. Of course our system could use improvement. But I refer you to my posting of information on the BNA Act and how Canadians have been ripped off by the government not borrowing from our Bank of Canada at low or no interest for infrastructure and health care. In passing the Bank Act of 1913 (same year the PRIVATE Federal Reserve was incorporated) we were sold out. Our healthcare, among other things is now suffering for it with no need.


[edit on 22/6/05 by AlwaysLearning]




posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 07:49 PM
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Really, AlwaysLearning...is that a fact?
I found these and could have found a host more that stand starkly in contrast to what you are indicating as my "exaggeration."
Canadian Health Care In Crisis
Canada's health care in crisis


An average family pays 48% of income in taxes; some are tired of waiting for services.

Canadian Healthcare system is going broke


Personally, the way I am seeing it, it is a matter of time before the Canadian helathcare system falls into the same dismal shape as the French healthcare system. But AlwaysLearning, these are simply my observations from across the border.






seekerof

[edit on 22-6-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 08:15 PM
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Yes Seekerof, you showed me. Thanks very much. I live here and know for a fact that there is room for improvement, as with anything. But I and everyone I know has never had to wait for any treatment or surgery we've needed. It doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, of course it does, but from where I sit there are those who just want to destroy our health care system instead of improve it by putting in the necessary funds to do so - money that can be had interest free through our Bank of Canada. Instead, there are those who want us to be like the U.S. with nothing. And there is simply no need for it..



[edit on 22/6/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
The government was given an unlimited supply of debt-free money with which to operate our country and it did the job as spelled out in the BNA for the first 46 years of the country’s existence.


This troubles me. An unlimited supply of debt-free money?
Sounds like a dream - one in which money can be unlimited and still retain value.

Thanks for the information, AL.
I'm doing some more research right now.



posted on Jun, 22 2005 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
Personally, the way I am seeing it, it is a matter of time before the Canadian helathcare system falls into the same dismal shape as the French healthcare system. But AlwaysLearning, these are simply my observations from across the border.


The very article that you linked to in that post says that France was ranked as the best healthcare system.



The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked France's health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia. Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by parrhesia

This troubles me. An unlimited supply of debt-free money?
Sounds like a dream - one in which money can be unlimited and still retain value.

Thanks for the information, AL.
I'm doing some more research right now.



See, that's the thing, Parr. Its a mindset. Over time we have been conditioned to think that there is no other way than to borrow money from the banking cartels @ interest. When in actuality we have always had the right to print and coin our own money or borrow from the Bank of Canada at no interest! It floored me too when I learned about this!!! The U.S. also had that right before the Federal Reserve was instituted. And in fact, JFK was trying to get back to that when he was assassinated (and we think it was about Cuba and Vietnam????)We need to get back to that. Just think - we pay $45B in interest payments per year and never make a dent on the debt. That could pay for a lot of healthcare, don't you think? They took that right away from us in 1913 (same year as the Fed) - the bankers have a stranglehold on the world!!!

Check this out - one of the resolutions from the Ontario NDP Convention 2004:

4-3 Public Debt

Whereas the Ontario Government's justification for privatization is that is cannot afford to maintain our collective wealth because of debt; and

Whereas Ontario's debt is owed to private banks which charge $8 billion per year in interest; and

Whereas the Bank of Canada Act (Chapter B-2, Paragraph (j)) makes provisions for loans to be made to a provincial government;

Therefore be it resolved that the ONDP advocate using the Bank of Canada to create interest-free infrastructure that the government would have paid to private banks.

(Beaches-East York NDP)

Here is an excellent thread that Hunting Veritas has started....check it out:
Let's pop the bubble of ignorance





[edit on 23/6/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
See, that's the thing, Parr. Its a mindset. Over time we have been conditioned to think that there is no other way than to borrow money from the banking cartels @ interest. When in actuality we have always had the right to print and coin our own money or borrow from the Bank of Canada at no interest! It floored me too when I learned about this!!! The U.S. also had that right before the Federal Reserve was instituted.


No, I have no problem envisioning borrowing without interest - it's the "unlimited supply" part that is troubling me. There has to be a limit on the amount of money that can be produced, or it will lose value. This limit can be set (in the old days) by the amount of gold possessed, or in these days 26 times the amount of that which has been deposited into a bank ( I think that's what it is).

What am I missing?

Obviously this would stop the debt from accumulating, but what about paying the existing debt as it would be if interest would be to stop? Are you assuming that wouldn't have to be payed if things were to go back to how they were?

I just don't quite see how this could be a magic cure-all, at least immediately.
In theory, what you describe would obviously be VERY helpful to the healthcare situation, but what about money already owed?

Do you see what I mean?



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by soficrow

AL and billybob - those free courses sound great. Almost makes me wish I was in TO.


There's a couch with your name on it if you decide to visit!
The lectures are right up your alley, soficrow!



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by parrhesia

What am I missing?

Obviously this would stop the debt from accumulating, but what about paying the existing debt as it would be if interest would be to stop? Are you assuming that wouldn't have to be payed if things were to go back to how they were?

I just don't quite see how this could be a magic cure-all, at least immediately.
In theory, what you describe would obviously be VERY helpful to the healthcare situation, but what about money already owed?

Do you see what I mean?



Totally, and that's a great question. I guess the idea would be to not create more debt while providing Canadians with the services they need and want. But as I understand it, we can coin and print our own money too and if we started to do that we could pay down the debt (it would still take generations at this point). But I'm still learning here and researching and will try and find out more.

As I understand it though - example in the U.S. the Federal Reserve, which is privately owned buys good quality paper and turns it into money which they then turn around and lend to the government at interest. Because its in Washington and it looks like something "governmental" the people believe it is a public institution, but its not, its private, under contract to the U.S. to print and coin its money. Why? The only cost involved was the paper, ink and the labour to produce it.

I know it sounds simplistic, but I think its really as simple as that. You need to watch the Moneymasters documentaries posted in that thread I mentioned to get a better idea of how it all works. Its like an elaborate ruse and scheme to scr*w the working stiff like you and me.

[edit on 23/6/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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I retyped this from a handout.

The U.S. corporate scheme to privatize our national healthcare - timeline
By Sydney White (Discourse and Disclosure, Nov. ’98)

1973: John D. Rockefeller and Zbigniew Brzezinski established the Trilateral Commission, made up of 300 global corporations – their goal – a borderless world with no regulations on business or interference from governments.

1976: The C.D. Howe Institute joined the Trilateral Commission and Burson-Marstellar became its public relations and lobby arm.

1988: The Americans started a populist push for a national health care system. To counteract it, Congress appointed a special commission headed by Rockefeller. Without public consultation, it was decided that all health coverage would be based on private insurance plans. The Health Management Organizations (HMO’s) are owned by the large insurance corporations which are all members of Rockefeller’s Trilateral Commission.

1989: U.S. Ambassador to Canada, Edward Ney, joined the Trilateral Commission. At the same time, Canada’s Ambassador to the U.S. Allan Gotlieb joined the Trilateral Commission as its North American deputy chairman, and Burson-Marstellar as Canadian chairman. Burson-Marstellar was paid $18 million for advertising and lobbying for NAFTA. NAFTA was passed.

1992: Ralph Nader warned that “giant health care corporations in the U.S. are going to destroy Canada’s health care.”

1994: Trilateralist, Bill Clinton, appointed 19 other Trilateralists to cabinet and administrative posts in the U.S. government. Hillary Clinton’s “health plan” was based on private insurance.

1994: In Canada, a provincial advisory body of the Bob Rae government appointed the nine-member “Hospital Restructuring Committee.” The chairman was Ed Crawford of Canada Life and the Imperial Bank of Commerce. Another member was Richard E. Lint, president and CEO of Rockefeller’s Citibank and director of Citicorp. A third member was John Wilson or Ernst & Young.

1996: After Ontario’s Hospital Restructuring Committee had laid down the blueprint for the destruction of the hospitals, they disbanded – but not before spawning the “Health Services Restructuring Commission.”

1997: John Wilson, formerly a member of the Hospital Restructuring Committee, and of Ernst & Young, was founding chair in 1982 of an organization known as the “Canadian Institute for Advanced Research.” This is a think tank by our provincial and federal governments and very generously funded by Manufacturer’s Life, for scholarships and fellowships in the field of “population health.”

In February 1997, the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research presented a heavily screened, two-day seminar, opening our national health care system to private foreign interest. It took place at the Intercontinental Hotel on Toronto’s Bloor Street and was picketed by more than 300 concerned Canadians and the Ontario Health Coalition. With the topic “New Opportunities for Healthcare Providers in Public-Private Partnerships,” the seminar was attended by the major pharmaceutical and private health care corporations. Canada is being primed for “integrated delivery” – a euphemism for private infiltration of our national health care.

1997: In the summer, the Health Services Restructuring Commission presented its weighty prospectus of the future of our hospitals. The said the hospital cuts were based on urban population. They did not mention that only property owners were counted downtown – 75 percent of the urban core, being tenants, were not included in the survey. (Source: Warning Signals for Canada’s Health Care System by Dr. Thalberg.)

1997: In September, Rockefeller came to the University of Toronto to speak at Trinity College on the advantages of the NAFTA – a quiet and unpublicized event. In November, George H.W. Bush was given an honorary degree for his “humanitarian services.” A thousand students cheered 35 professors who walked out on the ceremony at Hart House.

1997: Frank Stronach of Magna International is interested in bringing American-style HMO’s, called CHO’s (comprehensive healthcare organizations) to Canada. baystreetraginggrannies.nonprofitnet.ca..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Info

1998: Deaths are resulting from the hospital cuts. Patients are dying in hospital hallways as overcrowding impacts on the heavy urban population. Nurses have been fired and those remaining are overworked.

The concept of “integrated delivery” is currently being subtly inserted into town hall meetings where concerned people are meeting to discuss the health care crisis. They do not know that “integrated delivery” means the combination of private and public services in our health care system. People are being told, particularly by the Ontario Nurses Association, that “integrated delivery” is the connection between the nurse and the hospital and the nurse in the community. It used to mean that, but the term is now used to deceive even health care professionals so that they may unwittingly promote the private sector.

Home Care, which has never been included in our National Health Plan, is the target for the infiltration. The Trilateral Commission’s strategy is to cut the hospitals drastically in order to greatly enlarge home care, and then further their privatization scheme by promoting “integrated delivery” within that unprotected sector.

Sydney White was a regular contributor to Discourse and Disclosure, which unfortunately had to stop publishing this summer. Back issues are available however @ Discourse & Disclosure online. She is a member of the Committee on Monetary and Economic Reform


[edit on 23/6/05 by AlwaysLearning]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
As I understand it though - example in the U.S. the Federal Reserve, which is privately owned buys good quality paper and turns it into money which they then turn around and lend to the government at interest. Because its in Washington and it looks like something "governmental" the people believe it is a public institution, but its not, its private, under contract to the U.S. to print and coin its money. Why? The only cost involved was the paper, ink and the labour to produce it.


I will look at those videos posted in the other thread when I have a little more time. But you're right it is very simple. I've read up thoroughly on fractional reserve banking and the federal reserve and understand how it works, and how it's very similar here in Canada.

The fact that the printing of money is really as simple as that and constitutionally allocated to the congress to coin is the intriguing part and what grabs you, particularly when you consider how things were before 1913 and then look at them now.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 09:52 AM
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Its amazing, isn't it. And the more I learn, the more disgusted I get. How we've been taken to the cleaners and we just assumed that's the way it has to be.

Well, I've got my P.I. and skeptical hats on at all times now!!! Glad you seem to as well!!!!



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 09:56 AM
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The handout you typed up presents the Trilateral Commission in a way I hadn't seen before.

I'm just trying to put all this together and make sense of it in my head.
I've pulled up some books to find these reference points to do some more reading and see what I find for myself. You have me very interested.

Hey, have you read "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen?



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by parrhesia
Hey, have you read "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" by Gary Allen?



No - but since you recommend it, I'll add it to my list. My reading pile gets higher and higher!!!!



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
No - but since you recommend it, I'll add it to my list. My reading pile gets higher and higher!!!!


It's a short, good read. 140 pages max, dealing with the International bankers. It was published in 1971, so that's where it stops, but it deals with the Federal Reserve and all that. It's easy to fill in the blanks after '71, though.

Also, VERY good book, but very long (1300 pages) - It's called "Tragedy & Hope" by Carroll Quigley of Harvard. In the book he talks of plans of national bankers working to control the world from behind financial and political scenes. Sound familiar?

If you're really interested in this, you must check out that book.

It can be difficult to get through but it really is worth it.

[edit on 23-6-2005 by parrhesia]



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by parrhesia


Also, VERY good book, but very long (1300 pages) - It's called "Tragedy & Hope" by Carroll Quigley of Harvard. In the book he talks of plans of national bankers working to control the world from behind financial and political scenes. Sound familiar?

[edit on 23-6-2005 by parrhesia]


Yes! I've heard of this just recently and I found a link to it online! Apparently he was a professor of Bill Clinton when he was in university and it was required reading!

You know, seems that there is no shortage of information out there, but we've all been dumbed down for so long. They keep the public all wrapped up in nonsense so that we don't look at the real issues. And it all goes back to the history of money and the greed of the few for it when all is said and done!



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 11:55 AM
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Ok, I will post some insight here from a Health Canada perspective having worked here for a while in the area of Health Human Resources, I feel I have something to add to this discussion.

The Quebec decision was a result of current wait times which exist in Canada. The notion is that access to health care is a constitutional right and not allowing private health care in when the current system can't provide the access required is an infringement on the rights of the citizens of Quebec. Seekerof, privatized healthcare is not being considered as a result of spiraling costs. In fact, Canada spends much less, per capita than the US on health carewww.oecd.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Link. I would be far more concerned about the US system myself.

Another point of contention I think is in regard to comments made in regard to brain drain. This is not as significant a problem as it once was. Last year I believe the net loss of physicians was in the neighbourhood of 27 (not an incredible number). The exodus that occured in the 90's was mainly due to the acceptance of a report which indicated that Canada would have an excess supply of health human resources (the report was by Byrd and Stoddart I believe...we now lovingly refer to it as the BS report). One lesson learned from the BS report is the need for continuous planning. We cannot, as we did in the past, look at our resources and make a plan for the next 10 years, it requires an ongoing process, which Governments are moving toward.

The wait times issue is a big one in Canada and is certainly a complex issue. The current federal government has dedicated $42B to try and ameliorate the situation. This is on top of current initiatives that are being undertaken by individual jurisdictions.

Another big initiative that is currently taking place in Canada is the facilitation of licensure for internationally educated health professionals who are currently in Canada, but not practicing in their field. Thsi does not involve recruiting health professionals from other countries, but assissting those who are already present in Canada.

Finally, medical schools across the country are increasing the number of seats for medical students to help get our country closer to being self-sufficient in providing its own supply of healthcare workers.

we certainly don't have a perfect system and never will. However, here in Canada we are absolutely spoiled with respect to our access to care, cost of our care, and quality of our care. Privatized health care would be a huge blow to our system and would have far reaching impacts that we likely don't understand yet. I sincerely hope that the Quebec government moves swiftly enough to prevent this from becoming a reality.

Lukefj



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 12:25 PM
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Excellent contribution lukefj - thanks every much for that. I am always amazed when I read that our healthcare system is at death's door financially. Again, its troubled, but better a troubled public system and people/resources/will to improve it, then a private system, or worse, none at all like for so many of our friends south of border.

I applaud Health Canada to help those foreign trained doctors to get their certification here...we do need doctors in remote areas and that could be a condition of getting licensed - that they do say a 5-year stint in a northern town or city. I'm sure they would all jump at the opportunity.

Now, if we could only get back to borrowing interest-free from our Bank of Canada for infrastructure and social programs we could have the best health care in the world in seems.

Thanks again for this information.



posted on Jun, 23 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by AlwaysLearning
Yes! I've heard of this just recently and I found a link to it online! Apparently he was a professor of Bill Clinton when he was in university and it was required reading!


Yup, apparently he was Clinton's mentor. The fact that he is a well known and respected academic adds weight to what he's saying. It's quite compelling, because in the book he essentially says there's not a problem with that they're planning. His complaint is that they want to keep their plans secret from the people.



posted on Jun, 24 2005 @ 08:58 PM
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Long story short....my cat appeared to have some kind of large bump on his lower back last week and I intended to call the vet... but before I knew it the bump was gone and poor thing had a bald spot and a very red and nasty looking sore there. My wonderful housecall vet came to see him and when she checked him out said he had been bitten by another cat. She wanted to give him an antibiotic shot, so I held him while she did so. Well, I didn't hold his head steady enough and when the needle went in...he bit me on my finger. Now, I had a tetanus last year and my cat's shots are up-to-date so I wasn't too worried. I cleaned the wound which bled a few minutes. Unfortunately, it got swollen and infected. Today I called my family practice but it was closed because the doctors were all at a meeting. But I paged the on-call doctor who called me back very quickly. After I explained what happened, the doctor thought I would need some kind of antibiotic. She suggested I go to the emerg of any hospital. She asked where I might go and I said another hospital because it was closest to me. She said that's okay, but at yet another hospital in town she knew the wait time was shorer. So I took myself there. Right away I was seen by the triage nurse, who took vitals and asked if I felt any flu-like systems or if I'd recently been to Asia. A file was opened up for me and I was taken to a waiting area. Inside of an hour I had been seen, prescription in hand and I was out the door.

Not too bad for a health care system that is crumbling methinks.

My finger is sore...but I'll be okay. At least I can still type. Kitty is recovering nicely, but is feeling sucky like me right now.




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