Time to Change our Flag...?

The Union Flag is the flag our nation, a flag which many look towards for pride and a sense of national unity.

But is it wrong?

The Union Flag was originally created through the union of:
The Grand Union
- St Georges Cross (England)
- St Andrews Cross (Scotland)
and
St Patricks Cross (Ireland)

All of which can be seen here...

Surely the flag today should be made up of Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales

Now I'm not sure of any change, but now and again I have heard people mention that the flag is incorrect, and not a accurate image.
Many people proberly don't know that the flag might be wrong, but does anyone really care, does it really matter that much?

As you will proberly know the Union Flag has been hijacked by extreme right neo nazi groups such as the BNP and NF, has our flag been tainted possibly, do we need a new fresh image to represent ourselves, or am I thinking to much again?

I don't really know what should be done, whether we should simply carry on with our current Union Flag or re-invent our identity.

What I really wanted to know what is your opinion on the topic?

Here's a possible idea:



edit: my spelling

[edit on 21-6-2005 by UK Wizard]

I don't think the flag matters anymore as we don't fly it for fear of upsetting Muslims and other Ethnic groups, thats Britain today.

Thats a shame, the Union Jack isn't only a part of British history it's also a part of american history and the history of many nations around the world I can see that some times it is necessary to change a flag because the ideal or people that it was created to represent no longer exist like the changing of the state flag of South Carolina that incorporate the controversial conferderate battle flag it represented a part a sometimes not pretty part of american history. I really hope the Union Jack isn't gotten rid of.

No, due to the fact Wales is still a principality unlike the others, it is still the last part of the British Empire which never got taken back. If I remember it was about the 1200's when they signed over their rights.

The British union flag has lost it's appeal to many because it has been hijacked.

It has nothing to do with 'normal' people being afraid of "of upsetting Muslims and other Ethnic groups"; it has everything to do with it's usage by far-right and racist groups in the UK......

......and everyone knows it, here.

It has been hijacked by those people and groups who use it to tell other people what (these people and groups say) they are are not.

We've seen it time and tme again here.
Those using the flag this way have nothing to do with any kind of positive national pride and everything to do with pointless and needless division and provoking unrest.

Here's a page on the complex history of the 'union' jack.

It also makes a note of some 'alternative' flags




And of course there is allways this one

From monty python, arthur's flag!


This is from a rendition of Richard III


This is cromwell's personal flag. If you guys get rid of the monarchy, that might be 'fun'

For Christ's sake, what the hell is going on in Britain these days? You're thinking of changing the national flag because a few nut cases use it as their symbol, too. It is their symbol, too. What needs to happen is for the majority of folks to make sure that no one forgets what the Union Jack has stood for and continues to stand for. What's next, banning butcher knives?

Don't forget Mr. Philpot, the Dutch have actually gone so far as to 'ban' their flag, because racists have piced it up. I think what they've actually done is restrict its use amoung groups of youths or someting, because its unthinkable that a nation can actually ban its own flag.

But thats what its comming too.

I think that if a people's flag is being taken up by fascists and racists and thugs, that the people should just take it back. Especially the Union Jack, that thing's all over the world, its practically history itself.

edit to add:

I've actually heard that there are even discussions in the UK where usage of the term "english' to refer to anyone in britain is 'racist' and 'imperialist'. The scots want to be scots and the welsh want to be welsh, not 'english'. Or was it even going so far as to reject the term 'british' itself?


But it wouldn't be the worst motivation to want to include the welsh in the national flag.

[edit on 23-6-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Bulldog 52
I don't think the flag matters anymore as we don't fly it for fear of upsetting Muslims and other Ethnic groups, thats Britain today.

i would really like to know why we would be offended/upset at someone using a Union jack ( flag sales seem to jump up during national sporting events ) and i seem to see all ethnic groups buy one

I don't think it is a case of anyone simply just 'banning the flag' anywhere - I have heard of no such law going through the UK Parliament.

I suggest it might be akin to something like the recent US moves legislating against disrespect for the national flag and that scumbags who attempt to drag the national flag into the sewer with them will be stopped.

I think it's disgusting that any citizen of a sovereign nation would consider abandoning their flag because of a perceived 'hijacking' of it by any group.

If there's a problem with this, crack down on the groups, not the flag. Many of your citizens joined the military and shed their blood over the years to protect that flag. :shk:

Originally posted by djohnsto77
I think it's disgusting that any citizen of a sovereign nation would consider abandoning their flag because of a perceived 'hijacking' of it by any group.

- I don't know anyone who has abandoned the UK national flag for any reason.

I do know lots of people who see no reason to go on and on and on and on and on over it though.

It's really no big deal........and, let's be honest, it is all to often quite easy to see what those who do go on and on and on and on and on about it are all about here.

If there's a problem with this, crack down on the groups, not the flag.

- If you can show me any of this imagined "cracking down on the flag" I'd be grateful.

Many of your citizens joined the military and shed their blood over the years to protect that flag.

- Is anyone disputing this?

I see people disgusted at the obvious and gross mis-use of our flag, I haven't seen any of what you're referring to.
I have seen moves to stop this clear abuse and blatent $hit*ing on our flag(s).

I suggest you look at somewhere like Northern Ireland where, for instance, so-called 'loyalist' paramilitaries use the British national flag to mark out territory (the 'other side does the same with the flag of the Republic of Ireland's flag).

In no time at all we have mile upon mile streets (all across NI) disfigured with little more than filthy rags hanging from the lamp posts......and the 'ordinary people' terrified to touch them because the paramilitaries put them up.

There is nothing respectful in this kind of use, just like the use by racists and facists, it is IMO deeply disrespectful and ought to be stopped.

[edit on 23-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Some people seem to thing I've implied there is real talk of changing the Union Flag, I'm sorry if I've given this point of view by mistake.

The Union Flag has been tainted in a way, its very image is in the logo of the BNP (British National (Nazi) Party) who in reality stand against everything that is truely British, the original thought behind the thread was that I wanted the opinions of people as to whether we need a fresh start.
I've now made my mind up and decided that the flag of our nation is worth fighting for, the nazis can wave our proud flag all they want, but in their hands the flag is replaced by a image of bloodshed and hatred.

Our flag is ours and the nazis can push off!

[edit on 23-6-2005 by UK Wizard]

[edit on 23-6-2005 by UK Wizard]

I find it funny yanks are giveing us advice and passing comment about OUR flags when its OUR flag, we can change it if WE want. Its OUR right.
The men and women died defending their country, not a flag, a flags a symbol...not a cause.

DW,

I agree.

Since when did we need advice on flags from a nation who think it is a crime to burn a flag in protest, yet state that freedom of expression is a basic human right?

As to the question of the Union Jack why is there a need to change it?

Why is there a dragon in the revised version in the first post?

Cheers

BHR

Originally posted by BillHicksRules
As to the question of the Union Jack why is there a need to change it?

Theres no real demand for change but I thought it a interesting topic to debate, a couple of reasons though could include:
1. Neo-nazis using the flag in their logos and marchs
2. The fact the flag is not a true representation of Great Britain

Why is there a dragon in the revised version in the first post?

Wales

I think your original statements make perfect sense, UKWizard. The Flag that represents the "Union" is leaving out wales, which is fully a quarter of the Union. So why not make the flag representative of wales too? And of course it has to be mentioned in such a discussion that the Union jack has been appropriated and synonimzed with nationalism, facism, and bigotry.

Anyway, the Welsh must look at the flag, with something to represent england, ireland, and scotland, and say 'wtf'. Or in welsh, 'Wfjzzcmysdfllggh"

As I have pointed out before Wales is a principality.

It is why the Courts reprosent England and Wales and the Education system is the same in England and Wales but not in Scotland, list of things goes on. Scotland on the other hand is not a principality.

The racists certainly have hijacked a flag - the Cross of St George. It was only the footie that took it back (partly). Union Flag has never had this issue IMO

All you need to know about Welsh Flags is here

fotw.fivestarflags.com...

I find it funny yanks are giveing us advice and passing comment about OUR flags when its OUR flag, we can change it if WE want. Its OUR right.

HaHA....and how many times have YOU put in your two cents on American issues?

Anyways.....