Can Evolution be proven? or is it just a theory/religion?

Simon666, not sure what you mean?

The problem is that it has not been proven right either. Some native American beliefs say that we rose up from the Earth. Is it wrong?

well thats sorta what the bible says too. the bible says that God created us from the dust of the ground. but we didnt evolve or anything.

I never said that my theory (creation) was the right one. I said that I believe in it and it makes more sense, and definitely a better explanation for what the earth looks like today.

Originally posted by expert999
so what. dont be jeaious. he doesnt work for anyone. his business survives off of donations.

He deposited, into several different bank accounts, over a million dollars in teh course of a year, without paying taxes on any of it, and without ever filing for tax-exempt status. Thats what a con-artist does.

he can prove you wrong better than I can.

He is completely clueless. He cannot and has not proven anyone wrong.

and keep shoving facts in your face.

Practically everything you have mentioned has been complete falsehood.

facts that you dont know how to answer to, example: trees connecting layers, petrified and some upsidedown.

If you had done any research on supposed 'polystrat' tree's you'd know what the answer is. They are not evidence for creationism or against evolution or anything of the sort.

Merely because you do not understand the science invovled does not mean that it must be incorrect.

I believe in the bible because it has not been proven wrong and will never be proven wrong.

A religious text, as a religious text, can't ever be proven wrong. But if we take the statements in the bible as intended to be 'factual', then its wrong. There is no evidence for a global flood, for example, and yet the bible says that there was one.

and since you believe in evolution does not make it a fact. it has now become your religion.

In case you haven't noticed, you are the one who has 'faith' in a particular doctrine and beleives in it against the facts and evidence. People who 'beleive' in evolution are 'beleiving it' in a scientific sense, just like people 'beleive' in atomic theory or the theory of gravity. They don't have faith in it. They look at the evidence, and rationally conclude that the evidence best supports evolutionary theory.

definitely a better explanation for what the earth looks like today

Creationism is not a theory. And it is in no way a 'better' explanation for what the earth is like. Saying "I have faith that god did this' is not an explanation.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
No one has yet to explain the "missing link" of mankind.

There are many transitional fossils between man and primitive apes. What are you talking about?

Or in laymans terms how Neandertal man jumped to Cro-Magdon man.

Why should it have to be explained in laymans terms? Its not a simple science. I wouldn't expect hawkings or einstein to have to dumbdown their science, and if I disagreed with it then I'd expect that the onus is on me to understand, in detail, what they are saying and refut it, not simpyl say 'well i don't get it so it can't be true'. Case in point, the general consensus is that cro-magnon man did not evolve from neanderthal man.

But even if they did, what 'hurdles' do you think there were that needed to be jumped? Neanderthal is extremely similar to modern man, the differences between neanderthal and cro-magnon are differences of quantitty, not differences of kind.

If all these religions have different teachings than Christianity does it mean that they are all wrong?

you gave me a list of religions, but ill bet you that a lot of those have something in common with the bible. if not than they have something in common with evolution.

see, you are not getting the point I have made a while back and I keep making this point but you seem to ingore it.

The earth is here. and we are here. that is a fact. there are other facts like: there are many stars, there are many galaxies made up of stars and planets. stars blow up. the sun is shrinking, losing about 1% every year or 5 feet per hour in diameter. the moon was closer to the earth 20 years ago than is it today. the earths rotation is slowing down.

these are facts.

but you cannot prove the big bang
I also cannot prove that God created the universe

you cannot prove that stars evolve

you cannot prove that life all the sudden come to be from non living material.
2nd law of thermal dynamics says that "everything tends to disorder"
1st law of thermal dynamics states that matter cannot be created of destroyed. so those two laws kinda collide with the evolution theory.

the law of the conservation of angular momentum proves that the big bang didnt happen. if it did. you would be able to tell where the big bang happened. amd everything would be spinning the same direction. and everything would also be evenly distributed.

another thing no no one can prove is that one kind of animal can produce a different kind of animal. now read this carefully
a kind is not a species.
if its a dog its a dog. doesnt matter what species it is. its still a dog.
no one has ever seen this happen.

their proof for this happening is "we find fossils that look like it was evolving to a different animal". ok it looks like it. but you cannot tell if that bone had any kids that lived. and you cannot prove how old that fossil is. and you cannot prove that it all happened millions of years ago.

this is purely a theory. once you believe in it, it becomes your religion and since atheists do not belive in God or any sort of higher power, that makes evolutionists fall into the category of an atheist belief.

so im sorry, evolution cannot be proven. and if you believe in the theory, it becomes your religion. and evloution religiously falls into the same belief as atheism.

if evolution is true, than spirits do not exist. heaven and hell do not exist. and a lot of other things should not exist. but im not dumb enough to know that evolution is not true, therefore I picked a different religion, one that makes a whole lot more sense and one that science has a better explanation for.

I gave up already, when he knew that I read the bible he ignored me. You see, I am a believer that more people should read the bible, all of it, at home, with no child rapist in the front of the room telling you to go to hell unless you give him money/little boys.

You see, when someone actually reads all about the murder, genocides, rapes ordered by god, wars ordered by god, complete and total slaughters of men women and children, how god wipes out entire cities due to 1 person's actions, they will convert to something else, like Pebble People, or reality/science/facts.....

www.evilbible.com...
www.evilbible.com...
www.evilbible.com...
www.evilbible.com...
www.evilbible.com...
www.evilbible.com...

And so much more from the bible. Go ahead, check the site out, and get your good book, then set it down and get your bible and look it up. It's all right there, Kill Kill Kill, Rape Rape Rape, Slaughter Slaughter Slaughter, all ordered by god/Jesus.

Originally posted by GREGNOW
Simon666, not sure what you mean?

Your facts didn't seem entirely straight.

Originally posted by James the Lesser
I gave up already, when he knew that I read the bible he ignored me.

They fear thinking for themselves. If you read his twisting, simplifications and downright raping of physics laws and their interpretation, you'd wonder whether they even think at all.

[edit on 24-6-2005 by Simon666]

Originally posted by expert999

it doesnt say that God used evolution, if God had to use evolution, he is pretty dumb and cant get it right the first time.

Well, this really begs the question.... then why did he need the Flood ?

JAMEStheLESSER, you are off a bit with your comments about the Bible. You tell others to read it as though you have read it and are an expert, yet it seems you have not really read it yourself. The comments you made really only refer to the old testament. Yet you blame God/Jesus for them. Jesus was never in the old testament. Jesus is in the New testament and none of the stuff you talk about being ordered by God was ever ordered by Jesus. If anything Jesus said the opposite and did not condone war, rape or anything else like that. He said love your brother as yourself. Although both the old and new testament are both in the Bible, they both seem to have very different ways on how to go about things.

SIMON666, what of my facts did not seem straight on Neanerthal and Cro-man?

I think God created us and this world, and I think we have just begun starting to discover slightly how God did this, through evolution.

The "scientific" theories do not cover everything, and are partly based on assumptions and unproven theories.
Even today new proof is found to either proof, or debunk earlyer assumptions and theories we had in the past.

It doesn't really matter though, mankind will never be able to prove how nothing turned into something, or how it is possible there has to have been "something" timeless that always existed.

I think God created us and this world, and I think we have just begun starting to discover slightly how God did this, through evolution.

ok God did not use evolution. the bible says that he created everything and they would bring forth after their kind, to include plants. and he saw that is was very good. if it wasnt good than he could just start over or simply re-create. God doesnt need to use evolution. if he did, he wouldnt be God. that means he would be limited by something somewhere.

The bible says that in the end days there will be scofferes who walk after their owns lusts and for this they are willingly ignorant. that means dumb on purpose. you have to be dumb on prupose to believe that a big bang was the begining of evolution and 4.6 billion years later, here we are. that pretty silly if you ask me. where did all that matter come from anyways? no one has answered that either, where did it come from?

there is no proof for evolution whatsoever. the whole theory is based on lies that have been proven wrong years ago. so if you think that you have proof. tell me what it is. and ill prove it wrong.

and I will not use what Dr hovind teaches. I will use my own research, and ill give an additional explanation according to the bible.

and yes there is ebough water on the earth to flood the earth 2 miles deep. of course you would have to level out everything pretty much.

the bible said that there was water under the crust of the earth and water above the atmosphere (firmament). this would be the source of the water to cover the earth. why is it that the mountains are parallel to the oceanic ridges? or should I say mostly parallel, and most of the moutain ridges are mostly parallel.

did you know that amino acids cannot bond in water?
did you know that amino acids cannot evolve with or without oxygen?
did you know that down in the deepest layers of strata they find airbubbles in amber and it is richer in oxygen?
did you know that oxygen blocks UV light?
did you know that UV light is destructive to life?
did you know that when they tried to produce life in the lab, they got a produce that was mostly tar and toxic acids, with a few amino acids?
did you know that if you put dirt in a jar along with water and shake it up the dirt will settle into layers?
did you know that you cannot get a tree to grow upside down through strata layer?
did you know that if the universe was to gather all the matter and the spin and explode that all the matter from the explosion would be spinning the in the same direction?
the references you pulled from the bible are from a website... not the bible. websites are known to often be wrong.

you evolutionists just hope that this theory is true, because if it is, than you will not be held accountable for every sin you have commited. I know I sin, i do everyday. but according to bible. I will still be forgiven and will still go to heaven.

JAMEStheLESSER, you are off a bit with your comments about the Bible. You tell others to read it as though you have read it and are an expert, yet it seems you have not really read it yourself. The comments you made really only refer to the old testament. Yet you blame God/Jesus for them. Jesus was never in the old testament. Jesus is in the New testament and none of the stuff you talk about being ordered by God was ever ordered by Jesus. If anything Jesus said the opposite and did not condone war, rape or anything else like that. He said love your brother as yourself. Although both the old and new testament are both in the Bible, they both seem to have very different ways on how to go about things.

also, if you read the bible, you will come to realize that Jesus is God. and God is Jesus. they are three but are one. its called a trinity.
you have to remember that God is not limited by anything. if he is or was, he would not be God.

There seems to be a lacking of knowledge in this post, and in all posts related to evolution, that causes all of this Bible vs Evolution nonsense.

A Theory is:

A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)

First, a statement for the Bible Quoters:

A Theory is not a fact, it is a supposition.

However, the difference between a theory and your faith is that while the teachings and explanations in the Bible may be considered completely true to you, they must be accepted as fact based on your faith in their accuracy.

Second, a statement for the Bible Quoters:

The scientific method has four steps

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.
2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.
3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.
4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

In other words, while a Theory is not a fact, it has been studied to a point where the vast majority can accept the theory as being truthful because it has been researched, experimented upon, and shown to fit the defining points of the Theory. Religion, of any sort, cannot provide the same level of accuracy or scrutiny. You either believe, or you do not. You cannot prove God. You cannot prove creationism. While you cannot prove evolution entirely, you can use statements from the Evolution Theory, conduct experiments, and predict the results of the experiment accurately using the theory's defining factors, which is something that religion and faith cannot do.

Third, a statement for The Evolution Theorists:

STOP arguing with the Bible-thumping Creationists! It is a waste of time. I personally believe there is room in the Bible for evolution (IMO). When a child asks you, "Why is the sky blue," do you really provide the entire explanation of the way the light refracts through our atmosphere, or do you tell them "That's the way God made it," or "That's the way it is?" In the same strain of thought, do you think if God was asked "How did we get here?" by a human being, He would truly explain the wonders of the powers He has? Of course not, He'd give us an easy, understandable explanation along the lines of "Well, it took me 6 days, I made, light, the stars, the earth, the animals, the plants, man , and then woman. Then I took a break on the 7th day."

Creationism is not an acceptable argument in the scientific community, not becuase the scientific community doesn't believe in God, necessarily, but because the Creationist belief cannot be defined as a theory using the scientific method. Anyone who seriously wants to discuss the Theory of Evolution should never, ever, acknowledge the religious naysayers based on these simple facts. Responding to them in any manner other than to explain the scientific basis behind the theory is unacceptable. If they choose to not accept your explanation, then that does not make them right or wrong, merely a differing, unsupported belief. However, until anyone who believes in Creationism can follow the scientific method and develop a workable theory, the idea is unacceptable in a scientific discussion, regardless of your personal beliefs. No offense meant to the believers out there, however while science can quote many experiments, many books, and vast research, Creationism constantly uses 1 book to define it's explanations. Nobody experiments to determine whether or not the ideas in the Bible can be proven. Creationism is NOT a theory, as it does not fit the definition of theory. Period.

I hope this clears up a few things, both to the Evolutionists and the Creationists. Stop wasting each others' time. Post a thread about Creationism, Evolutionists keep out. Post a thread about Evolution, Creationists keep out. Any other attempt to argue the two factors is merely that... An attempt by one side or the other to argue two completely different ideas simply for the sake of argument. Don't be a troll, It's counterproductive to a goal.

Greg, you say this... "Jesus was never in the old testament. Jesus is in the New testament and none of the stuff you talk about being ordered by God was ever ordered by Jesus."

Jesus says this....
www.evilbible.com...
www.evilbible.com...

Jesus Doesn’t Want to Save Everyone according to Mark 4:10-12 NAB




Read this part of the bible-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV-Clearly the Old Testament is to be abided by until the end of human existence itself. None other then JESUS said so. So, when daddy orders everyone to be raped, Jesus orders it to.


Also, god just loves to kill, why you should read the bible!
www.evilbible.com...

And more proof that christians are well, ignorant. They know nothing, they are about as smart as an uneducated ape in a zoo. If they ever actually read the bible they would convert immediately since it is so full of BS! Here is more, where the bible shoots itself in the foot, leg, other foot, other leg, groin, arm, other arm, head several times, so forth.
www.evilbible.com...

So, evolution has science, facts, reality, and christians have nothing but Kill Kill Kill, Rape Rape Rape, Slaughter Slaughter Slaughter.

Originally posted by expert999
you evolutionists just hope that this theory is true, because if it is, than you will not be held accountable for every sin you have commited. I know I sin, i do everyday. but according to bible. I will still be forgiven and will still go to heaven.

I know most likely I am going to hell, if there is one. I don't believe there is; I'm more inclined to think there's nothing after this, or something more along the lines of reincarnation. If there is one, well then I'll be surprised. It's not for you to worry about my sins one way or the other though. In response to the rest of your post, I will reiterate JTL's avatar:



Your random babblings about UV light and its effects on life, about amino acids and how they bond, and essentially everything else you discussed is all fine and dandy, but why don't you GIVE US SOME LINKS. Back it up with something that we can accept if you're really wanting to convince us, and if you're not wanting to convince us then why are you trying so hard?

I don't belive in evolution, I think it's more like adaption. Organisims adapt to their changing enviroments, in order to do so they need to change their physical characteristics. The point is the old and new species have nearly identical genetics.

If we are apes that lost are hair and became bipedal, why do we lack the same chomosome count? A species CANNOT lose there chromisome count from their ancestors unless they are diverging from an ancestral line.

Dogs developed from wolves just as we developed from neanderthals right? Dogs can mate with wolves to produce fertile offspring, cro-magnon could not mate and produce offspring from neanderthals. So how did cro-magnon come about then? If this was a natrual mutation then there would have to be a male and female with the mutation in order to produce offspring with the same chromisome count. Losing a chromisome causes defects in all organisims, and this mutation would have been lethal, not to metion to make it to a breeding age. But this is no ordinary mutation, it made smarter, more physicaly developed beings.

Let me diagram this a bit.

Early Man chromisome count [Female]: 48 = 2n
Mutation (modern Human) [Male]: 46 = 2n

Early Man chromisome count in gamates [Female]: 24 = n
Mutation chromisome count in gamates (modern Human) [Male]: 23 = n

They mate:

23 [Male] + 24 [Female] = 47[2n] chromisomes [Offspring]

The offspring would be missing a chromisome from the female , this will either lead to sterility, severe disorders, or no conjuction at all.

The bottom line is unless more than one mutation occurs in a male and female that is survivable and have more than one male and female child. In extremly unlikley cicumstances they find eachother and mate then evolution is possible, but by what it seems, there must be more to how we came about on this planet than you belive. In the end science itself is proving evolution wrong.

I find it disturbing that you state that science itself is proving evolution wrong. You are assuming in your post that evolution means a straight line of ancestry. The further research and investigation that goes into it, the more scientists are discovering that Cro-Magnon man and Neanderthal man were two different, divergent paths. Man MAY, or MAY NOT, have descended from either of these earlier species, not both, and possibly from antohter species strain entirely. While you make an interesting argument, the theory is not being 'proved' wrong, it is merely being challenged, and as more information becomes available, the theory, in its very nature, will most likely be supported, and if not, it will be adapted to accept the new findings. It is the nature of science that further experimentation and evidence help to refine a theory's paramaters. While Darwin may not have been completely right, many of his ideas withstand the rigors of experimentation. Those experiments that do not conform to Darwin's theory of evolution cause the current theory of evolution to be adapted and changed. While this may seem like an odd concept, it is the true nature of theories and scientific research. You try some things, observe some things, and experiment on some things, and then adapt the theory to fit the new findings.

Religion and faith cannot share the same adaptability in their very nature. It has no try, observe, or experiment to help support the ideals it professes. Science is an adaptable, changeable system based on solid principles that allow for new ideas and new experiments. In it's very nature, the Scientific Method encourages challenge and change for the enhancement of theories and knowledge. While many of the creationists will argue that this is the very reason why evolutionism is flawed, they will also contest that their religion is flawless and therfore does not need to grow.

The same theory of evolution can be applied to the homosexuality argument. Scientific research has shown that a certain portion of any mammalian population has the potential for homosexuality. While there are varying ideas on the reasoning behind why, it has been clearly observed that it exists. While the scientific community continues to research the "why" behind these observations, religion merely insists that it is completely wrong, without searching for a why behind the admonishment. It is this factor alone that sets religion apart form science. Science strives to contiually experiment and learn additional things: Guesses are made based on previously learned knowledge, and either the guesses are continuously found to be correct, or the guesses are wrong and then new guesses are created. Religion strives to continually stand by the belief structure it follows: Guesses are made and are denounced by the religious bodies, and people are burned at the stake (or whatever you want to call the modern day equivalent hate structure).

ok James the Lesser

you obviously havent read the whole bible or even near helf of it. The bible says that death is mans fault. and man brought death into the world. Evolution teaches that millions of death, by natural selection, brought man into the world.

the bible teaches that death is an ememy to man.

and all the death that you were talking about earlier about killing witches and killing people for sins. it doesnt mean to kill them.
its means that they will not live spiritually. just like God said to the man and the woman. if you eat from the tree of knowledge, you will surely die. now did they die, physically? no, they died spiritually. you are coming to the wrong conclusion.

and again, these are from websites, a source that is known to be inaccurate at times. and plus you are reading the wrong version. if you want t more accurate veersion. try using the KJV. its more accurate. because it was translated directly from the original scripts of hebrew.

all other versions were translated by the alexandrians and edited by them, they took stuff out and also added what they wanted. they also changed wording in somethings. so these are inaccurate. of course you are going to find everything you want on that site because it is ani-bible... duh

the most accurate version is the KJV

the proper term for slaves in the bible is more like servants, and they were not to beat them or treat them with cruelty.

the bible is not wrong. it states the way things used to be, it states how things are supposed to be, and it states how things are going to be.

science is science. you get facts from science. but you can also use science to get theories.

The evolution theory is not a fact, and it is far from being proven by anyone.
therefore, if you believe in it, you are making it your religion.

Evolution is also the key to the NWO.

I dunno? Very good question though. And goods points behind the question.

Dallas

"The bible says that death is mans fault."

So, when god comes done and orders a genocide, it is mans fault for following what god told them?

Funny, I will refer to the top ten list....

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

well you think that you can twist what I believe in and make it sound like I am an idiot. see what you are doing is setting up a straw man so you can knock it down.

you are trying to point out contrdictions that dont exist. im sure that God had a reason for GOOD people to kill BAD people. and im sure that if you read a little more, you will find that God gave the Evil people a chance to turn form evil. read a little harder and read the KJV. its more accurate.