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How can the universe just "be"?

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posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:54 PM
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I have a few questions. Ahem...

I was reading some theory about the creation of the universe and i noticed in a lot of these theories it doesn't give much explanation to where everything came from. They always just start off with 'well, the universe has been around forever..' well if energy cannot come out of nothing how did the universe come to be in the first place.

big bang? well where did the energy for that to take place come from?

in the theory i was reading it says

"The universe has existed forever. In The distant past, it was nearly empty. Forces such as gracitation were in herently weak.

The forces gradually strengthened, so matter began to clump. In some regions, it grew so dense that a black hole was formed.

etc... etc..."

So that brings up another question, what causes these forces such as gravity to just strengthen over time? It doesn't make sense to me how it can just start to change or do something out of nowhere.

and im not looking for religious answers

[edit on 20-6-2005 by xxblackoctoberxx]




posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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xxblackoctoberxx,

If I may, I'd like to tackle your main inquiry...


Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
I was reading some theory about the creation of the universe and i noticed in a lot of these theories it doesn't give much explanation to where everything came from. They always just start off with 'well, the universe has been around forever..' well if energy cannot come out of nothing how did the universe come to be in the first place...big bang? well where did the energy for that to take place come from?


Near Death Experiencers often report seeing a Light "at the end of the tunnel." The Light is also a common theme among Mystics; it is a universal principle of energy in the Spirit that is addressed in one way or another in every major religion and metaphysical philosophy that addresses the discarnate dimensions. You also hear of mediums talking about fleshbound spirits who need to go into The Light.

So what is this Light?

The Light is a nonliving, infinite spectrum of energy that transcends the physical universe and is based in the discarnate dimensions. It has always existed and always will exist. The more spiritually advanced the soul, the greater the access to The Light when free of matter and ascended in Spirit. The Big Bang was manifested billions of years ago by a rarefied God Realized Master who utilized The Light to a very high degree.

Large collectives of discarnates on the lower levels -- called Group Entities -- use their combined access to The Light to channel healing and telekinetic energies through and around their chosen prophets.

Without The Light, there can be no galaxies, stars, planets or souls. Without The Light, there can be no reality at all because something cannot emerge from emptiness. Technically, from the very beginning of ALL THAT IS, there was never total nothingness -- The Light in the Spirit was always there.




posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:28 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Technically, from the very beginning of ALL THAT IS, there was never total nothingness -- The Light in the Spirit was always there.


That is exactly what I didn't want to hear. Haha, because I'm basically asking how could that be? Maybe my small brain just cannot comprehend such an idea, but doesn't everything have to come from something? How can something just be existing, when did it start existing, how long has it been existing? If i went in a time machine farther and farther back in time wouldnt i finally reach a point where somehow there was nothing? or would i just be traveling in vain forever and ever.

[edit on 20-6-2005 by xxblackoctoberxx]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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That didn't answer the question though. If anything that just proposed a new one. Okay so we know ABOUT the light but you say the light has always existed... how.. thats just like saying the universe has always existed which is the confusing thing.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:31 PM
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Not what you want to hear, but the answer is we do not know. We do not know the who, what, why, when, or how of a lot of aspects of reality.

The hardest thing for humans to do it accept lack of understanding. In this case, there is just nothing yet to lead us to an answer.

Some use god, others just accept the lack of knowing.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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Well then what is your opinion Quest? I know no one was around to actually know where we came from or how things started so i wasn't looking for an exact factual answer, more of a what are your ideas and opinions on the subject answer.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:43 PM
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Agreed, Quest... And because we cannot understand it or have not yet learned to understand it, it means you must either accept a scientific theory that cannot answer your question, or accept a religious answer that cannot answer your question. Personally, I like them both. But hey, on this one, unfortunately, it's all a matter of Faith.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:50 PM
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My latest pardoxical thought.......

Existence and non-existence are the same.....

The answer might lie in perspective....we as humans attach meaning and purpose to our lives because that is the way we are wired. That which we have percieved is what comprises are worldview and how we base our decisions and subsequent actions........

.......but if we let go of our 'exalted purpose' and accept a more jaded perspective(for the sake of arguement) we can see that we are really just 'bodies of mass that percieve sensory stimulii.' We are aspects of the universe, rather then living in a universe.....

...the distraction is our society and our egos......

[edit on 20-6-2005 by MemoryShock]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 03:31 PM
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I believe gas permiates from empty (motionless space without energy) space and is formed at the quantum level. I think space was just empty space, and gas particles just formed from quarks and such...vibrations(gravity?) so to speak formed gas out of nothingness.

After unknown billions of years enough gas was formed to cause the first gravity and either started the known energetic univeres with the first sun or a black hole.

I believe even today, gas is forming far, far out there, beyound the know univerese, causing new galaxies and black holes to form. ( the reason we do not see it localy is because once a galaxy forms and cause energy it disturbes the process that is creating gas from empty space). SO we wont see gas permiating out of nothingness close to us or any galaxy).

The recent discovery of dark matter galaxies (galaxies without suns) solidifies my belief in this system. I do not believe there was ever just one thing (big bang) that created it all. I believe creation of it ALL continues to this day.

The gas just comes from dead cold empty motionless space, and eventually enough is formed to cause critical mass forming the first suns/black holes to start new galaxies and stellar nurseries.

I think all observable evidence really does point to a universe created in this way.

The next step for science is to discover how the gas is formed.

I can prove this theory as well as any other theory you have seen or heard (that is it is not provable at this time).

This theory explains why they have not ever found a center. It explains why they keep finding new further out galaxies. It explains why old galaxies way way out there have blue stars.

Gas created ALL. How did the gas form that is the ultimate question wich may also answer what causes gravity.

X

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Xeven]

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Xeven]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 03:55 PM
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I Think you have answered your own question and it is the answer you dont wont to hear.




well where did the energy for that to take place come from?


If you arent satisfied with the "its always been there then", perhaps you can comprehend a greater being that has the power to have created it out of nothing.

Its a double edge sword that has extremely sharp edges.


I personally believe that a higher being had to have created it. Like you said, "Where did all the matter come from?".

From "Him"

You indicated that you couldnt comprehend the alternative.

Whats left?



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by CrossBone
I Think you have answered your own question and it is the answer you dont wont to hear.



well where did the energy for that to take place come from?


If you arent satisfied with the "its always been there then", perhaps you can comprehend a greater being that has the power to have created it out of nothing.

Its a double edge sword that has extremely sharp edges.

I personally believe that a higher being had to have created it. Like you said, "Where did all the matter come from?".

From "Him."

You indicated that you couldnt comprehend the alternative.

Whats left?

Crossbone,

I generally agree with your appraisal.


I would also add a discrimination between The Light and The Original Creator. The former has no beginning or end but represents the ONLY way that reality can exist; while the latter had a beginning and was the rarefied Being of Light who initiated The Big Bang. Many would say that The Original Creator had no beginning and is infinite because they attribute to Him/Her those aspects of The Light, much like the ancient Greeks having attributed aspects of gravity to the "gods" in moving the planets and sun through the sky.

Here we have a contradiction in logic: you can't have something come about from nothing. So there must have already been something for ALL THAT IS to manifest. That "something" was and is The Light which The Original Creator utilized to a very high degree.

Using written language is a very difficult and awkward way to describe these concepts. If those in this discussion were in the Spirit, I'd find it much easier to convey my meaning more precisely through telepathic means.


[edit on 20-6-2005 by Paul_Richard]


apc

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 05:43 PM
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Ok... wow.

First, there is absolutely no point in trying to figure out what was "before" the universe that we know and love. There are plenty of other threads on this, but one must understand that spacetime (thats both space AND time) did not exist before the moment of creation. Anything and everything that may have taken place prior, could in no possible way affect our universe. You can speculate all you want on what may have led up to the creation of what we experience today, but it will always be speculation.

Second... this near death light stuff... wanna know what it is?
It is the result of a massive amount of dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-'___') being dumped into your cognitive centers. That's right when you die (or your brain THINKS it is dying due to the proper conditions, as has been repeatedly demonstrated in the lab and in situ) you are tripping your ass off. Check out the experience reports on people recreationally using synthetic '___' (N-N-'___').. they are near identical the these Near Death happenings. Our brains are VERY powerful, and we have barely even begun to scratch the surface of harnessing our own perceptive abilities.


[edit on 20-6-2005 by apc]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by Paul_Richard
xxblackoctoberxx,

If I may, I'd like to tackle your main inquiry...


Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
I was reading some theory about the creation of the universe and i noticed in a lot of these theories it doesn't give much explanation to where everything came from. They always just start off with 'well, the universe has been around forever..' well if energy cannot come out of nothing how did the universe come to be in the first place...big bang? well where did the energy for that to take place come from?


Near Death Experiencers often report seeing a Light "at the end of the tunnel." The Light is also a common theme among Mystics; it is a universal principle of energy in the Spirit that is addressed in one way or another in every major religion and metaphysical philosophy that addresses the discarnate dimensions. You also hear of mediums talking about fleshbound spirits who need to go into The Light.

So what is this Light?

The Light is a nonliving, infinite spectrum of energy that transcends the physical universe and is based in the discarnate dimensions. It has always existed and always will exist. The more spiritually advanced the soul, the greater the access to The Light when free of matter and ascended in Spirit. The Big Bang was manifested billions of years ago by a rarefied God Realized Master who utilized The Light to a very high degree.

Large collectives of discarnates on the lower levels -- called Group Entities -- use their combined access to The Light to channel healing and telekinetic energies through and around their chosen prophets.

Without The Light, there can be no galaxies, stars, planets or souls. Without The Light, there can be no reality at all because something cannot emerge from emptiness. Technically, from the very beginning of ALL THAT IS, there was never total nothingness -- The Light in the Spirit was always there.



nothing you just said makes any sense. you should stop talking. do you even understadn what you just said???sorry for this post, but im sure im not the only one who feels posts like the one paul richard just made are just taking up space.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:17 PM
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First off, there are many Near Death Experiences that were validated by external events. In other words, NDE cases whereby the person who died temporarily witnessed people and events that he or she could not have possibly have known about unless the soul actually left the body. There are even cases whereby the soul left the body and traveled miles away and witnessed conversations in gatherings that he/she could not have known about through the chemical breakdown of a brain dying.


There are various sites that address NDE phenomenon. This is not a thread about NDE's. Do a search.

That being stated, I would like to add to my previous synopsis that some find hard to understand...

Time -- especially linear time -- is a condition of consciousness in the discarnate dimensions.

Without consciousness, there is no linear time.

Since there is no linear time without consciousness, then it is possible for consciousness to emerge (with the help of The Light) through its own probability. This is precisely how The Original Creator came into existence.

Paradoxical?

Sure.

But that is the easiest way to explain it in simple terms.

The issue of Creation emerging from nothingness is a very difficult topic. I am open to addressing alternate theories if anyone has any cogent argument to offer this discussion.




posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:38 PM
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Two ideas and then an answer for Paul Richards.

One, so if there there was a univerese of nothing, os not really a universe, so there was just a infinite nothing. Since the natural laws that we know have nothing to govern, d they exist if not, everything oculd wuite litterally come from nothing.

Two, Quantum physics says that virtual photons can come from nothing. Noow this is going to break off into my crazy 13 yr old idea. If they had any mass there mass would be infinitely greater then the nothingness it occupies so with E=MC2 you could get infinite energy with this one virtual photon.

And Paul RIchards with your pciking up conversations they couldnt know about, quantum physics saves the day again. Quantum physics says that in someway, which im not sure about, ESP can be a reality, so in a phase where the brain think it or is dying could it possible that such ESP powers could come out.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:08 PM
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The Universe can just 'be' is because in the fourth dimension (We are in the 3rd) all time is one, and so everything allready is and has been, that is how there is a god, and this god I beleave created the 3rd dimension and time.

Mabey through a hole in the two dimensions was created to put chemicals into our dimension creating the Big Bang.

RIP THERY: I thought of an idea and then found it was allready used, if space is the same dencity through sompleatly then if it keeps stretching like this than it will rip! Could time be stretched by this? I think so because of the Quantome Time Thery and distance (light time), that is possably how worm wholes are created, by streches in space and so streches in time (Time or Worm Wholes would have to be enormouse though).

TIME MACHINE: In order to create a time machine you wuold have to compress distance in a box, put a neddle inside of the box (MAKE A SLIT) and move it back and forth, creating a worm hole. If you were to put a seed inside of the box than it would grow rapadly.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:10 PM
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You are all in my dream, unless Im in yours



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by MemoryShock
My latest pardoxical thought.......

Existence and non-existence are the same.....

The answer might lie in perspective....we as humans attach meaning and purpose to our lives because that is the way we are wired. That which we have percieved is what comprises are worldview and how we base our decisions and subsequent actions........

.......but if we let go of our 'exalted purpose' and accept a more jaded perspective(for the sake of arguement) we can see that we are really just 'bodies of mass that percieve sensory stimulii.' We are aspects of the universe, rather then living in a universe.....

...the distraction is our society and our egos......

[edit on 20-6-2005 by MemoryShock]


So in other words to the 2nd from last sentnce everything is one, (Buddhism Philosofy) (Pain is mentle, accept it and know that it is just a fealing and it wont bother you)

[edit on 20-6-2005 by The Surrealist]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 10:05 PM
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through out all time we know of (lets just say from the big bang and on) everything has been created from something else. planets and stars and earth have all came to be over time, then life came onto earth, and eventually evolved to us. what i want to know is if you traced back and said something like ok life on earth> earths creation> solar system creation> universe creation> ???big empty nothingness forever and ever???> god??

also i do not understand any of that stuff about "The Light" are you using light as a literal term or what. why cant things 'be' without this light?



posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
...i do not understand any of that stuff about "The Light" are you using light as a literal term or what. why cant things 'be' without this light?


"The Light" was meant as a literal term. It is the energy that every medium, healer, prophet and telekinetic channels from Spirit. It is the energy that enabled various Pagan prophets, Issa, Moses, Buddha and a host of others throughout history to manifest spontaneous healings and/or other telekinetic miracles.

The Light is that spectrum of energy, based in the discarnate dimensions, which represents the only way that reality can emerge.

It is that same energy that was utilized to a very high degree by The Original Creator in order to manifest The Big Bang. The Light in the Spirit preceded the Universe and enabled it to come about in the first place.

The next logical question is:

Where does The Light come from?

As I stated previously: in the Spirit, when there is no consciousness, there is no linear time. The Light is that energy which is not bound by linear time or space. It is the energy that consciousness utilizes and consists of in the discarnate dimensions. When you are in the Spirit, you can pick out and view your thoughts much like you would now pick up and look at some fruit. The energy of the soul in the Spirit is composed of The Light. The more advanced the soul, the greater the access to The Light when free of matter.

If there is no linear time, then something can manifest itself through its own probability. The energy that enables something to manifest itself through its own probability is The Light.

Here's another way of looking at it...

When there is absolutely nothing there is also no linear time. When there is no linear time, going from nothingness to existence (in the Spirit) is not manifested as a straight line (as it would be in a physical context), but a spiral that opens the door for something to emerge from utilizing The Light of Spirit.

Confused?

Try explaining it!





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