What plane is this... Gratefull if you tell me...

Originally posted by Canada_EH
Sorry tim i have to disagree with the F-15 upgrades. you would have to changes the entire airframe of the plane to get it up to 23 or 22 stealth. also i think that ppl seem to forget on this forum that when they dis the 22 for not being ready in june of 05 and its first full sqn will be up and running at full steam in late nov or early dec. oh and jra i think you can scrap any hope of canada getting the 22 unless either u or me take over and kick out martin and his group of idiots.

Hold on! The comment about the F-15 upgrade was a sarcastic remark on my part. My point was, the Air Force wanted a revolutionay fighter aircraft in the ATF, but when it came down to it, they gave up Much Better technology, in the hope of saving a few bucks. In the end, we'll be lucky if the F-22 is worth what we are paying for it.

Originally posted by Ark Angel
the YF23 is a great plane but the F22 won because it has better manuvrabilty and so its has a better suvivabilty rate

i like the F23 better

Not really! Manuvrability doesn't equal Survivability. If that was the case, it Mig 29 should have been able tobeat the F-15's in Desert storm because on paper the Mig 29 is more agile then the F-15. The F-23 was much better in the First Look, First Shot, First Kill mission!

How much expensiver was the Y/F-23 then...?

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
How much expensiver was the Y/F-23 then...?

Great Question! Unfortanatly, the answer doesn't seem to be avalibal on the Internet. I just came from checking about 20 different sites including USAF, DoD, and FAS sites, none of them have a cost figure for the F-23 Anywhere!

I have my own theory on why the F-22 was chosen over the F-23, and it has Nothing to do with Price or Preformance of either aircraft.

Politics: Call me crazy if you want to, But I think someone in the US Defense Department got Paid-off to Give the Contract to the F-22 team. General Dynamics helped build the F-22. GD also worked on the failed A-12 Avenger II program. That program was cancelled in 1991 after the price skyrocked to over $5 Billion, and no functional hardware was Ever completed. The government then got drug into a very bitter court battle with them over an attempt to bill the taxpayers sevral Billion dollars more in termination fees beyond the limits specified in the contract. The court battle went on in 1994/95. Since GD was still an independent company at the time when the F-22 contact was issued, and the A-12 scandle hadn't broke yet, I wonder if they Secretly paid someone off to give them the F-22 contract. Since GD wasn't the prime contractor on the F-22, noone ever thought about it, even though GD stood to gain millions off of the multi-billion dollar contract! Now that GD has folded and what was left of the company has folded into Lockheed, many of the Old Confidental records of GD were probably destroyed before the merger, so noone is the Wiser to the Shadowy deals and the fraud that when on in the background! It's not always how good you are, but who you know!

Before you Tell me how Crazy my theory sounds, Think about some of the headlines in the news from the last few years. Can you Say ENRON? NOW SURELY YOU DON'T THINK THEY HAD THE ONLY CROOKS IN THE WORLD OF BUSNESS, DO YOU? They are not just called conspiricies because they are secret, Conspiricy means what is being done is illegal!

The Raptor won because it was built by Lockheed and skunk works, in 91 when the gulf war stared and the Nighthawk preformed remarkably well all of the boys at the DoD were impressed by the fighter built by Lockheed, so they had more faith in them delivering then they had in the other company.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The Raptor won because it was built by Lockheed and skunk works, in 91 when the gulf war stared and the Nighthawk preformed remarkably well all of the boys at the DoD were impressed by the fighter built by Lockheed, so they had more faith in them delivering then they had in the other company.

So that should mean the next Major contract goes to Nothrop because the Spirit has been playing a key role in the war on terror! Also, none of the B-2's have EVER crashed!

RIGHT?

Originally posted by Zanzibar
Meh, who needs stealth anyway? Just fly under the radar.

Zanzibar- who knows damn well what he just said is complete squatch

In the aviation world, we have a saying "2 white and you're alright, 4 red and you're already dead."

This saying pertains to the approach PAPI lights at the beginning of a runway that pilots use to land on target and on the glide slope. 2 white and 2 red means your right on target, 4 red means your way below the glide slope, look out below.

This also pertains to why we don't normally fly below radar. The ground seems to be a pretruding factor.

Also when you fly below radar, expect to see RPGs flying at you. And expect heavy ground fire from infantry as you're pretty close to the ground.

The YF-23 was the better aircraft, and always will be. It too could have been upgraded, but hey, politics sucks.

Shattered OUT...

From everything I saw, the YF-23 certainly DID seem to be a better aircraft. Probrably the biggest reason the YF-22 was selected instead, (though to be honest, both aircraft did remarkably well from what I've heard), was the almost paternal nature of the US Government when it comes to protecting it's defence contractors. Lockheed built the Stealth Fighter, so should have been a natural choice for Stealth bombers, right? nope, GD Needs a contract so they don't go under or leave the business entirely. GD's got the Stealth Bomber, we're just about done with the Stealth Fighter, gee, who should we root for on the next generation of fighterplanes?

Originally posted by jra
Duck? How does it look like a duck? I personaly think it makes the F-22 look ugly, but that's just me

I think both of them look cheap and pieced together. Have you ever seen an f-22 from the side? Looks like a clunker.
The proportions and shapes of earlier jets were much more beautiful. The su-30, f-16 and b-1 looked like flying sculpture. Those 2 look like spatulas. Must be the stealth thing.

Originally posted by ghost

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
How much expensiver was the Y/F-23 then...?

Great Question! Unfortanatly, the answer doesn't seem to be avalibal on the Internet. I just came from checking about 20 different sites including USAF, DoD, and FAS sites, none of them have a cost figure for the F-23 Anywhere!

I have my own theory on why the F-22 was chosen over the F-23, and it has Nothing to do with Price or Preformance of either aircraft.

Politics: Call me crazy if you want to, But I think someone in the US Defense Department got Paid-off to Give the Contract to the F-22 team. General Dynamics helped build the F-22. GD also worked on the failed A-12 Avenger II program. That program was cancelled in 1991 after the price skyrocked to over $5 Billion, and no functional hardware was Ever completed. The government then got drug into a very bitter court battle with them over an attempt to bill the taxpayers sevral Billion dollars more in termination fees beyond the limits specified in the contract. The court battle went on in 1994/95. Since GD was still an independent company at the time when the F-22 contact was issued, and the A-12 scandle hadn't broke yet, I wonder if they Secretly paid someone off to give them the F-22 contract. Since GD wasn't the prime contractor on the F-22, noone ever thought about it, even though GD stood to gain millions off of the multi-billion dollar contract! Now that GD has folded and what was left of the company has folded into Lockheed, many of the Old Confidental records of GD were probably destroyed before the merger, so noone is the Wiser to the Shadowy deals and the fraud that when on in the background! It's not always how good you are, but who you know!

Before you Tell me how Crazy my theory sounds, Think about some of the headlines in the news from the last few years. Can you Say ENRON? NOW SURELY YOU DON'T THINK THEY HAD THE ONLY CROOKS IN THE WORLD OF BUSNESS, DO YOU? They are not just called conspiricies because they are secret, Conspiricy means what is being done is illegal!

Here is a more direct route to the not so conspiratorial aspect of this contract.
Sam Nunn and newt gingrich were two of the most powerful and senior members of congress in the 90s. Both were from georgia and both supported the raptor. gingritch's district houses the company who makes the raptor.
You can bet they played a large role in why the raptor was chosen over the others.

[edit on 17-4-2006 by grantrl78]

OMG... how dare you start this stupid thread again... I have shamed for ages for not knowing what the Y/F-23 was...

Originally posted by Figher Master FIN
OMG... how dare you start this stupid thread again... I have shamed for ages for not knowing what the Y/F-23 was...

Sorry about that, I just had to.

Shattered OUT...

I wish we could have

1000 f-22

250 f-23

2000 f-35

260 f-15E

500 f-16

300 B-52

200 B-1b

50 B-2

to start a least

Originally posted by youngiceman87
I wish we could have

1000 f-22

250 f-23

2000 f-35

260 f-15E

500 f-16

300 B-52

200 B-1b

50 B-2

to start a least

Is that all you need... I'd rather choose the equipment USAF uses today... no offense...

f-22 is a piece of junk

Its choice had nothing to do with performance
f-23 looks like pwnage
maybe it was payload and bvr capabilities????
I mean look at what happened f-18 vs f22

Looks can be deceiving...

We have no idea what the situation was... Only the black box knows...

Originally posted by TristanBW9456
f-22 is a piece of junk

Its choice had nothing to do with performance
f-23 looks like pwnage
maybe it was payload and bvr capabilities????
I mean look at what happened f-18 vs f22

So because one Hornet pilot got lucky, in unknown circumstances, the F-22 is junk? For all we know, that Hornet was already "killed" and was being ignored because he wasn't a threat anymore. Or he happened to find himself in just the right spot at just the right time.

We had an F-15 pilot get a kill on a B-1 out here once, because he just happened to be in just the right spot, going head to head with it, over mach 1 combined speed, pulled a 9+G turn, and dropped in right behind the Lancer and "killed" it. It was one of the only kills ever made against a B-1 in ANY exercise out here. Does that mean the B-1 is junk? (Actually, it IS a POS, but for other reasons than this one.)

I more thing to add... Y/F-23 looks like pwnage...?? looks, may I repeat that word... looks... I promise you it woul also have lost in the same situation...

I love the Black Widow but one of the most mysterious things about it was, where were the weapons? I finally found the answer here. They're below and behind the cockpit. The rear bay holds AMRAAMs in a similar manner to the proposed S47 production model. It's also deeper than a raptors so fitting larger weapons would of been easier.

Just think, add a bit of fluidic thrust vectoring, a couple of towed decoys and slightly wider airframe to fit weapon bays all the way down the aircraft and she'd be perfect.

Not bad at all... I have always thought the Y/F-23 as the brother or cousin of the Raptor... Yes, she is beautiful, and very good... So why did the USAF choose the F-22...?? I've said it before... Simply because the Raptor is good enough... They don't need to pay 10 000 000 $ extra for 0.1 mach...