Originally posted by Where2Hide2006

Originally posted by ByrdHe's a dippy college freshman/sophomore. We even tracked his connection down to the house where he was living at the time.

Byrd, wow! I can't believe that you would actually make a statement like that without presenting proof to back it up. And you are a Super Mod?

You prove he's not

What i feel is relevant to the whole TITOR cause is, ... folks its acually taking place all around you. The pieces have been set, WWIII is shorly coming, and the predictions titor made to too overwelming to ignore at this point.

Shortly as in 10 years? That's when Titor said it'd start. So you're saying Titor is wrong and that it'll start sooner.
Also what are these "overwelming" predictions? Name one prediction he made (in 2000) that anyone in any current events class couldn't make?

He said the civil war would start in 2004. There's no civil war.
He said the west would collapse in 2005. The west has not and will not collapse.
He said we'd see riots and chaos around the elections. There was none.
He said mad cow would be an epidemic by now. It's not.
He said that Isreal's neighbors would attack them. They have not.
He said the Arab countries would use WMDs against each other. How can that be if they have none?
He said the current president will be like Abraham Lincoln. Bush is not anything like him.
Want me to continue?

ThatsJustWeird:

I think you also need to re-read the archives.

>He said the civil war would start in 2004. There's no civil war.

On 12th Feb 2001, Titor states:

"I apologize for a missed key (very observant ? we all need good critics)."

He states here that it's DOESN'T start in 2004 as he mis-key'd - it starts in 2005. As we are not even half way thorugh 2005, I would say we need to wait until the end of 2005 and, if there are no "Waco style" events or other "manouvers" then we should be pretty safe. Remember that he DID say we can change the outcome of events.

>He said the west would collapse in 2005. The west has not and will not collapse.

Considering we are not even half way through 2005, I think this is a very bold statement

>He said we'd see riots and chaos around the elections. There was none.

On 13 December 2000 12:44, Totor stated:

"This becomes apparent around 2004 as civil unrest develops near the next presidential election."

Once again, you're mis-quoting him. I don't see how civil unrest equates to "riots and chaos". Civil unrest, from what I can see, is what people are saying about the government - mainly due to the Iraq war (amongst other things).

>He said mad cow would be an epidemic by now. It's not.

On 31st Jan 2001, Titor stated:

"The Mad Cow story here is yet to begin but don't worry, the fruited jellitine deserts are safe."

He didn't mention a timeline here. From what I recall, there was a Mad Cow epidemic in the US after this date anyhow. New legislation now has it that the spines and brains of cows are not fed back to living cows - this is because of prions.

Once again, he's fairly damn accurate here. Also, it is unknow of the extent of the incubation period for Mad Cow's disease, so don't hold your breath on this one either.

>He said that Isreal's neighbors would attack them. They have not.

He didn't give a timeline on this one either. Just because they haven't attached now, doesn't mean they aren't going to attack in the future (see below for more info).

>He said the Arab countries would use WMDs against each other. How can that be if they have none?

On 13 December 2000 12:44, Titor said:

"The Jewish population in Israel is not prepared for a true offensive war. They are prepared for the ultimate defense. Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's neighbors the confidence to attack. The last resort for a defensive Israel and it's offensive Arab neighbors is to use weapons of mass destruction. In the grand scheme of things, the war in the middle-east is a part of what's to come, not the cause."

He said Israel would use WMD's as the ultimate defence. Israel has WMD's. He DID NOT say other Arab states have WMD's.

>He said the current president will be like Abraham Lincoln. Bush is not anything like him.

On 19th Feb 2001 at 16:01, Titor said:

"The President or leader in 2005 I believe tried desperately to be the next Lincoln and hold the country together but many of their policies drove a larger wedge into the Bill of Rights. The President in 2009 was interested only in keeping his/her power base.

From what he said here, he's pretty damn accurate.

>Want me to continue?

Considering I've shot every "claim" down in flames, I think you should

Cheers

JS

Originally posted by jumpspace
ThatsJustWeird:

I think you also need to re-read the archives.

>He said the civil war would start in 2004. There's no civil war.

On 12th Feb 2001, Titor states:

"I apologize for a missed key (very observant ? we all need good critics)."

Nice of you to leave stuff out. Post the whole thing.

Question: John says the civil war which starts in 2004 or 2005 (depending on the post) leads to the world war which starts in 2015. ( So we have a TEN YEAR civil war???

JT: "It's 2004. I apologize for a missed key (very observant - we all need good critics)."

Considering we are not even half way through 2005, I think this is a very bold statement

Civilizations don't collapse overnight. Also I misspoke here, he said it would collapse in 2004.

Once again, you're mis-quoting him. I don't see how civil unrest equates to "riots and chaos". Civil unrest, from what I can see, is what people are saying about the government - mainly due to the Iraq war (amongst other things).

Look at any definition of Civil Unrest.
Also, people just saying stuff isn't considered a civil war.

He didn't mention a timeline here. From what I recall, there was a Mad Cow epidemic in the US after this date anyhow. New legislation now has it that the spines and brains of cows are not fed back to living cows - this is because of prions.

Once again, he's fairly damn accurate here. Also, it is unknow of the extent of the incubation period for Mad Cow's disease, so don't hold your breath on this one either.

Since it's not a problem in his future I'm assuming he's talking about before or during the civil war. Which is supposed to be now. Also, it's to regulated to become anywhere near a real problem.

He didn't give a timeline on this one either. Just because they haven't attached now, doesn't mean they aren't going to attack in the future (see below for more info).

He talks about this

>He said the Arab countries would use WMDs against each other. How can that be if they have none?

On 13 December 2000 12:44, Titor said:

"The Jewish population in Israel is not prepared for a true offensive war. They are prepared for the ultimate defense. Wavering western support for Israel is what gives Israel's neighbors the confidence to attack. The last resort for a defensive Israel and it's offensive Arab neighbors is to use weapons of mass destruction. In the grand scheme of things, the war in the middle-east is a part of what's to come, not the cause."

He said Israel would use WMD's as the ultimate defence. Israel has WMD's. He DID NOT say other Arab states have WMD's.

Read what I said, then read:

Question - "The Arab countries appear to have weapons of mass destruction. Do they use them against America?

JT - Not against America but they are used against each other.

"The President or leader in 2005 I believe tried desperately to be the next Lincoln and hold the country together but many of their policies drove a larger wedge into the Bill of Rights. The President in 2009 was interested only in keeping his/her power base.

From what he said here, he's pretty damn accurate.

So what has Bush done to try to hold the country together??

Considering I've shot every "claim" down in flames, I think you should

Ok so what do you want me to talk about next? About time travel?
About how his future and how it got there is extremely similar to Alas Babylon?

I'm game.

I remember someone on a forum discovered that the future world that John Titor described was in fact extremely similar to an old Pen and Paper RPG about a post-war future. Sorry I cannot remember right now, although I remember posting what the name ofthis RPG was on this forum in the many JT threads.

These issues have been over and over ... and i don't see any conclusive proof that he is a fraud. shadow of a doubt, yeah i'll give you that. But conclusive proof ... No way!

! First thing you need to consider is... Titor was from the year 2036 ... he is talking about a Civil War that started 32 years before his current time. When he says the war started 2004/2005 that's looking pretty accurate. In 2004 there was the election and in 2005 we are seeing the results of Bush's policies. And a lot of people disagree with the government, moreso than i have ever seen. This "unrest" is "unrest" ... its not riots like you think he is trying to say. The Civil War in my mind started already and it is only escilating until 2008 when everyone will see that the world that thought they were living in was gone. So that means that their will still be doubters in 2007. But eventually you will all come around.

! Secondly, The Civil War leads to the World War. This DOES NOT mean that one day there is a civil war and the next day it breaks out into a world war. This could be like ... WWI lead to WWII, however they weren't continuous. The Shape this nation is in after being Split into different camps, will give our enemies an opportunity to defeat our military. Wouldn't our Rivals do that...if they had a once in a lifetime chance?

! Finally, Mad Cow ... scares the bejesus out of me.

1. They don't know the Incubation Period. But they do know that it only shows up in Older Cows. We kill the cattle before it "could" show symptoms.
2. There are so many products that use cow parts, you would be suprised.
3. The U.S government's testing is flawed, where in the last Mad Cow incident the Government said everything was ok ... then a private lab tested the same animal ... and it came out positive for Mad Cow.

I don't know what else i can say to you, to help you.

Be Prepared for the Worst, Pray for the Best!~

When he says the war started 2004/2005 that's looking pretty accurate. In 2004 there was the election and in 2005 we are seeing the results of Bush's policies.

So then, come January 1, 2006, and there is yet to be civil war, the show is over - true enuff?

We may be seeing some results of that election, but it's all in talk. People are too wrapped up in their economical daily lives to deal with fighting joe blow. Not to mention, does anyone have any clue the vast numbers of people in the states that niether own a firearm nor know how to use one? The vast numbers of people that are simply too passive to pick up a baseball bat? Not to mention, what is going to all of a sudden happen - people dawn red or blue arm bands and head for the streets? What about the correlation of all this to even begin? Does anyone REALLY see that happening in 6 months as of tomorrow?

Misfit

Originally posted by Misfit

So then, come January 1, 2006, and there is yet to be civil war, the show is over - true enuff?

Actually, I do believe what Titor was saying...and i do not think there will be Tanks in the streets this year and a Civil War this year...but i do see the start of one, or at least a few reasons for one.
Here is what I see happening. No I am not a timetraveler/

2005
There will be arrests and a raid or two...but almost no news coverage. Then over the next 4 years it continues to escilate.


2006
Bush leads the nation into war, possible America is attacked. Not sure if its going to be Iran or Korea.
Then comes the draft...leads to more unrest in the cities. In a show of force, riot squads and tanks are sent to the cities to keep the peace. Homes are illegally searched, and leaders of protesters are arrested and held without charges or rights. This is where we see the start of 2 americas.

By 2007 The Govt. will push to far taking away or freedoms in the constitution...this will cause "Radicals" to become "American Domestic Terrorists". Then the people will be outraged over the out come of their confrontation...which would be on the news live, and all of the "American Domestic Terrorists" are killed, while not firing a shot (waco like). Over time the people will see that this country needs a change. They will march, they will pickit, it will be The protests of the Vietnam era all over again, only worse.

2008
Around this time the Economy ... i don't want to say collapse, but worse than the great depression. Maybe the dollar collapses because of the HUGE debt we keep multiplying with these continuous wars. At this point the media is showing the "American Domestic Terrorist" side of things... and that they are outraged over their loss of freedom and privacy...and the people will respond. Mostly those in the cities.

2009
This is when it starts to get real bad.

Originally posted by Misfit

Not to mention, does anyone have any clue the vast numbers of people in the states that niether own a firearm nor know how to use one? The vast numbers of people that are simply too passive to pick up a baseball bat?
Misfit

You see your not getting it. Americans are getting angry, you want to talk about waking up a sleeping Giant? The American People are that giant. The govt. keeps taking our rights, spending our tax dollars on war, ect.ect.ect. the list goes on and on. We have failed our system, the wealthy are running the politics of this country, thats not the way it was sipposed to be. Do you know how much Senators get paid? They are supposed to be civil servants.

Wars are not faught with huge armies any more. They are fought using Cells and Teams of 5-11 men/women. They use gurilla tactics and they try to bomb locations...at first.
This is done mainly to get media attention to your cause.
Once the majority of the people have come over to your side, you have won. I doubt that the Govt. will try to keep its power after the majority of the people rise up demanding their removal from office.

BTW, I am not involved or part of any action against The United States of America. I voted for Bush. It 's not perfect but it is the best system in the world! Oh, other nations might dispute that!

When the crap hits the fan, firs thing is i'm putting my money in gold and then i am taking my family to the hills.

I know that since you are reading this you will eventually see it coming. Good Luck!




[edit on 25-6-2005 by Where2Hide2006]

Where2Hide2006 great post.

I think there is a 90% probability of all that too happen. If timelines hold true it will surely happen, in this so called timeline it can happen. I can see that it can happen. Only because most of what you have mention is already beginning to take place or in the works!

I like your time table on how it will unfold

No doubt that the U.S. is in for a major war around 2006 or 2007. Its going to be a bumpy ride very soon.

why does no one try and prove how it was done (the hoax that is) or who done it (or group of pranksters) ?. Instead of finding flaws in his posts ?. It makes more sense to use police style investergation methods to disprove this hoax, otherwise your just adding to the popularity instead of debunking it.

[edit on 26-6-2005 by Sand_man]

Originally posted by Misfit
So then, come January 1, 2006, and there is yet to be civil war, the show is over - true enuff?

Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
2005:
There will be arrests and a raid or two...but almost no news coverage. Then over the next 4 years it continues to escilate.

The rest of your years are irrelevant to the prediction I rasied inquiry of. As are the actions of 2005 you provided. You can not get any more blunt than "civil war in 2005". Arrests and a raid or two are a bit short of civil war.

Originally posted by Misfit
Not to mention, does anyone have any clue the vast numbers of people in the states that niether own a firearm nor know how to use one? The vast numbers of people that are simply too passive to pick up a baseball bat?
Misfit

Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
You see your not getting it. Americans are getting angry, you want to talk about waking up a sleeping Giant? The American People are that giant.

So, you are basically saying, being that you beliive these predictions, that in under 6 months from now all this sleeping giant is going to emerge and all hell break lose (that tends to happen in civil wars). Take a good hard look at what the people of the US are doing ......... the same damn thing they have always done - work, eat, play, sleep - that is not changing in less than 6 months.

Misfit

misfit, you must really be dense. If you actually read what i post, instead of making assumptions you will find the answers you are looking for.

1. Titor said the civil war would start 2004/2005. You see not all wars have a clear beggining. Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are examples of a big start to a war. However the beggining of most wars do not have a clear starting point. Would you say the current Iraq war started in ... 2000? 2001? 2002? 2003? You could go further back to when Clinton signed an order to remove Saddam in 1997. Or perhaps history will count it as a continuation of the previous Iraq war with a short period of cease fire. History is funny that way. It can be written and interpretted in a couple different ways.

So when Titor sais the war starts in 2004/2005 ... and there are no tanks in the streets and riots until 2007... would you say 2007 was the start of the war... and not the years of tention that lead to the war?

The America People ... are too converned about thier Material Things, and News that isn't important. It is going to take time for them to wake up to the real world around them. At what point does America Stand Up? Maybe when they come to take your children for the draft...and they come home in body bags. Maybe when America is attacked again, and the people realize that all the laws taking away our freedoms... are not working. We will want our freedoms and privacy back.


Go read a history book, then come back and talk to me. Those who fail to understand history...are doomed to repeat it.

Pure Logic is Infallible

I've read a lot of posts where people claim to have 'conclusive evidence' that John is a fraud, but most offer nothing other than nit-picking at what he said. While there are some valid points that people have brought up, in John's crazy version of the universe a lot of it could be explained by worldline divergence. However, I submit pure logic to debunk this elaborate hoax...

From his explanations, he travelled back in time from a worldline that was 1-2% divergent than our's here. Also, John states that the popular theory in his time is that there are infinite worldlines and travelling back in time would not create paradoxes. This is because you would be in a different, albeit very similar, 'parallel' universe. Now given that we are 1-2% divergent, it stands to reason that there are hundreds, thousands, if not millions or more alternate universes that are 1-2% divergent to our own. Within probability, a good chunk of these could have John Titors running around going to this exact time and place for the exact same reasons he claims he's here now.

Even if they were appearing on different worldlines, it is entirely probable that there are alternate universes (individual worldlines) with 2, 3, four, a million John Titors arriving at the same time and place. If this does not create a paradox, what does? Are we supposed to believe that if this is true, our worldline is one of the rarities that has only 1 John Titor, or 1 Joe Blog timetraveller (John said there were at least 7 others in HIS time that were out and about, what about in the years to come?) Even if those guys travelled to other worldines, what about the unimaginable number coming from worldlines 0.5%-1% divergent from our own?

It is HIGHLY probable that these time travellers would arrive in our worldline, and HIGHLY IMprobable that there is only going to be 1 of them arriving in a particular location at a particular time. If anything we should be seeing thousands of Chevy's popping out of rainbows every day of the week! (Did anybody see that episode of Star Trek TNG, where the Enterprise D kept appearing over and over again because of a rift in time?)

I am highly surprised that nobody has come to this realization before as I have read all of John Titor's posts and everything on ATS.com
Either way, if there are infinite universes, or if there are not, temporal paradoxes can and will happen if time travel is possible. What happens when a paradox occurs? Do the worldlines fizzle out into the ether, or do they recombine to form some twisted alternate reality? How would we even know if anything has changed? I'll tell you how: we would not have real time travellers living to tell about it. And if the worldlines don't change into something else, we should be plagued by paradoxes all the time and be seeing it every day.

Time travel within infinite universes is impossible. Time travel without infinite universes are much less susceptible to paradoxes but they can still happen, and "the consequences would be disastrous!" i.e. finite universe paradoxes would cause muchos problemos for all parallel universes involved.
These are all pressing questions that people do not realise when reading about John Titor and his magical journeys. In my opinion, it is one of the most well performed and thought out hoaxes of the 20th century.

Let the incoherent and beligerent flaming begin...

titor is definately a fraud. all one has to do is study up to find the truth. logically, his story doesnt match up.

Gipper21: Can you give this proof ? so did you find the people orcastrating the hoax ?

Until people find a way to track down who orcastrated the hoax you can never post a topic like "Conclusive proof John Titor is a fraud"

Why not start by.....

Tracking down his parents in miami
Scaning the IP on his post's
Look at who had prior knowledge on Civil Rights, Mad Cow Disease, 5100 IBM ?



[edit on 27-6-2005 by Sand_man]

Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
misfit, you must really be dense.

Clearly uncalled for.

1. Titor said the civil war would start 2004/2005.

snip

Based on that logic, you cast your own belief in stone of this man, as your standpoint gives Titor quite a gap of years to "be correct". With that logic, Titor simply can not be wrong .............. civil war, as commonly known, breaks out in 2011, squelched by Where2Hide2006's professing "I told you he was right!!".

Go read a history book, then come back and talk to me. Those who fail to understand history...are doomed to repeat it.

Uhem, ya see my avatar? Kinda obvious I know about the history bit, I do have some years on me.
Not to worry about coming back to talk with you, I make it habit not to talk with those whose head are now clearly up there rectal orifice (that one, was quite called for).

Misfit

Originally posted by InfernoBreeze
Pure Logic is Infallible



From his explanations, he travelled back in time from a worldline that was 1-2% divergent than our's here. Also, John states that the popular theory in his time is that there are infinite worldlines and travelling back in time would not create paradoxes. This is because you would be in a different, albeit very similar, 'parallel' universe. Now given that we are 1-2% divergent, it stands to reason that there are hundreds, thousands, if not millions or more alternate universes that are 1-2% divergent to our own. Within probability, a good chunk of these could have John Titors running around going to this exact time and place for the exact same reasons he claims he's here now.

I don't know, but these two posts of John's may explain this


02/28/2001 12:28 pm (about time travel)
((In this experiment the traveler only goes 30 seconds into the past to appear in his lab. It seems that 30 seconds before his experiment was to begin he saw himself appear in the lab. There would now be two travelers and two time machines. It doesn't appear that it ends that simply as the "second" time traveler says that he saw a duplicate self appear in the lab thirty seconds before he started the trip. It would appear that its a time loop and an infinite number of duplicates see a duplicate self appear in the lab thirty seconds prior to the start of the trip. ?))
I'm not positive but I don't see anything that indicates the time traveler would remain in the same spot once he arrives. 30 seconds is almost long enough to get coffee in your thought experiment. If that were true, and they all kept moving, than the experiment could go on for quite a while until the planet filled with time travelers. You also stated, it would appear as a time loop. If it only appears that way, than the natural divergence may stop the experiment when three or four time travelers arrive and the others end up on different worldlines.

02/28/2001 12:28 pm (about time travel)
((The problem that needs to be addressed is what happens to the duplicates as they simultaneously arrive at virtually the exact same location.?))
Again, you use the world virtually, which to me means not exactly the same spot. Under the laws of physics, I don?t personally know what happens if it were on exactly the same spot but I do know it?s possible. Under the operational limits of the distortion unit, as soon as the VGL sensors pick up an unexpected mass in the target worldline, it would shut down and drop off in a worldline where your experiment is not occurring.

Originally posted by Sand_man
Gipper21: Can you give this proof ? so did you find the people orcastrating the hoax ?

Until people find a way to track down who orcastrated the hoax you can never post a topic like "Conclusive proof John Titor is a fraud"

Why not start by.....

Tracking down his parents in miami
Scaning the IP on his post's
Look at who had prior knowledge on Civil Rights, Mad Cow Disease, 5100 IBM ?
[edit on 27-6-2005 by Sand_man]

I'd also seriously consider investigating Pamela (those of you 'up with it' should know who I mean). Pamela and a few others were in direct contact with JT (possibly in kahoots). Thats where the truth is.

Didn't he offer a diagram or something from a military manual of his time travel device?

I find it funny that if he is on a military mission from the future that he needs to bring with him a manual of the machine, and a non-technical manual to boot.

Like don't you learn and memorize how to use your military gear before you go on missions? Do soldiers carry with them a diagram of their machine guns with labeling like: 1) trigger, 2) barrel, etc. This diagram of his device reminded me of this. Something non-technical, and something you don't carry around with you if you are an experienced military person who knows how to use your gear.

Very silly.

Sean

Originally posted by Sean Cotoz
Didn't he offer a diagram or something from a military manual of his time travel device?

Like don't you learn and memorize how to use your military gear before you go on missions? Do soldiers carry with them a diagram of their machine guns with labeling like: ..............
Very silly.

I find these aspects of "proof" from the future just as laughable. I could say the same of me, offer you paper work of a device of mine from 2273 - how would you know it is real? You've never seen it before to konw any difference.

And yes on the soldier knowledge. Just as every other soldier (per their equipment), I knew my .45, M16, Grease Gun (older Tanker automatic weapon), and the entire tank itself, every screw in each, how many threads on each screw along with the "feel" of how tight to torque a given screw, how many coils in a spring ......... everything, as if I were the one that designed it - the manual is drilled into a soldiers brain, it doesn't go away, paper is irrelevent after it is learned.

Misfit