Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
That's deportation and resettlement.

No. It's a plan for deportation and resettlement.
It never happened.

rounding up in ghettoes already is deportation and resettlement. Resettlement in Madagascar and later british colonies were just the original intention until 1942, yes. But if we are to learn anything from Germany's sad history, it's that the spirit which sees discrimination and deportation as a solution will even go to further ends to achieve his goal.

Mokuhadzushi, if you look at my post about hitler vowing to kill all jews you see why the plan never went a head. Jews were told to move NOT deported out. Then they were put into work camps. Then sadly millions were killed.

[Edited on 15-8-2003 by infinite]

I was merely interested in the Hitler "deportation" plan is all...thank you infinite and gentlemen.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
But if we are to learn anything from Germany's sad history, it's that the spirit which sees discrimination and deportation as a solution will even go to further ends to achieve his goal.

So how do you tie in a plan in Nazi Germany, which was never fulfilled, with modern day Israel?

You're reaching dude.

Nazi Germany wanted to kill all jews, that was there plan. Israel just wants to control the holy land and kick the palestiens out.

Originally posted by Leveller
So how do you tie in a plan in Nazi Germany, which was never fulfilled, with modern day Israel?

Leveller, what is so hard to understand, didnt i point it out often enough or do you want to hear it again ?

Well isnt what happened between 1933 and 1942 to the middle and east european jews exactly what's happening right now and in the last fourty years to the palestinians ? .. resettlement of palestinians, dispossession of palestinian's land in Israel, fugitive camps, marriage laws, a 8m wall to keep them inside their reservates, terror against civilians etc.. ?

If you disagree just tell me where the fundamental difference is. If you make a valid point, i'm ready to change my mind on the subject.



[Edited on 15-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by infinite
Nazi Germany wanted to kill all jews, that was there plan. Israel just wants to control the holy land and kick the palestiens out.

If they wanted to kill all jews in the first place they wouldnt have come up with the resettlement plan until 1942 ?

The plan was made well before that.
Madagascar was actually contemplated in 40.
But the actual reasoning behind Madagascar was not deportation as an end result.

Madagascar was merely to be a way station. A place where the Jews could be coralled and kept to await execution.

So Moku, are you saying that the Israelis are planning to deport the Palestinians so that they can execute them later?

Leveller

Firstly, i notice that you do not challenge my comparison pertaining to the discrimination and deportation of jews and palestinians.

Secondly, i don't think that Israel's policy aims at killing all palestinians. At least there is no conclusive evidence of that. However, there is plenty of conclusive evidence that in order to preserve jewish supremacy in Israel, deportations or resettlement will ultimately take place. There is, at least to my thinking, little other reasons for marriage laws and 8m high walls. The marriage law is already a quiet means of deportation, as is the everyday discrimination against the palestinian minority in Israel. Furthermore, in the broad acception of the term genocide, which encompasses policies aiming at reducing procreation or destroying the cultural identity of a certain group, the current policies can be qualified as genocidal.



[Edited on 15-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
Leveller

Firstly, i notice that you do not challenge my comparison pertaining to the discrimination and deportation of jews and palestinians.

I totally and utterly challenge it.
And I further believ thate your inclusion of Madagascar into your argument was only so that you could get the words "Jews" and "Nazis" into the same sentence.

Madagascar has absolutely no relevance whatsoever.

Interesting... 3 people consistently making nasty posts... only one gets the "warn" button. The other 2 are of the same opinion, the third opposes... hmm...

Djarums,

so you don't get a false impression. I believe Leveller got his warning because he actually insulted someone.

[Edited on 15-8-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
Djarums,

so you don't get a false impression. I believe Leveller got his warning because he actually insulted someone.

Yup. I insulted rats.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
There you have it. Israel's marriage policies target the reduction of the palestinian population, and this extreme-right logic ultimately will lead to deportation.

There are several holes in your logic:

1) The marriage law is a security measure. It was passed because many Arabs who gained citizenship in this way have started terrorist cells within Israel. It was and continues to be controversial within Israel, as well as with the international community.

2) The demographic crisis you describe is hypothetical, not real. As it stands, there are barely over a million Muslims living in Israel, while there are 5.4 million Jews.

3) You create both the crisis and the solution in your head and then condemn Israel for the immorality of the solution you picked for them. This is "straw-man" reasoning taken to an extreme level.

Originally posted by MokuhadzushiHitler had similarly "very good" reasons for the deportation of jews, arguing that it was impossible to live together with them without corrupting national interests.

I really don't see the difference.

That's because you're making the comparison with a fictional Israel that only exists within your head. You're condemning them for crimes you imagine they might commit in the future. If you're going to do that then no reasoning, no data or statistics will make any difference to you.

Originally posted by infinite
Nazi Germany wanted to kill all jews, that was there plan. Israel just wants to control the holy land and kick the palestiens out.

IT IS HOLY LAND TO:

TWO MAJOR GROUPS:

Christians (over 1 billion..)
Muslims (about 1 billion..)

ONE MINOR GROUP:

Jews (about 17 million..)

They cant and must not have all of it to themselfs..
ESPECIALLY JERUSALEM WITCH SHOULD BECOME OPEN CITY..

[Edited on 17-8-2003 by Uninen]

Originally posted by Uninen
They cant and must not have all of it to themselfs..
ESPECIALLY JERUSALEM WITCH SHOULD BECOME OPEN CITY..

Put your mind at ease. Israel has always had a policy of encouraging access to the holy sites of all cultures.

Mycroft, you posted yourself a "strategy paper" according to which arab settlement and multiplication inside Israel was to lead to a destruction of jewish supremacy in Israel. Also have you ever heard about the land swap "solution" ?

The land swap solution dates back to the Camp David Agreement. It was dismissed out of hand by the Palestinians.
It has no bearing on this topic.

Leveller: So how do you tie in a plan in Nazi Germany, which was never fulfilled, with modern day Israel?

How about the systematic detention and marginalization of an entire culture? How about totally disproportionate military responses to individual actions (one suicide bomber takes out 2 people and a cruise missile is shot at a car on a crowded street at rush hour in retaliation)? How about creating a culture of Fear where the enemy is seen as sub-human? Think Warsaw Ghetto meets West Bank.

"The land swap solution dates back to the Camp David Agreement. It was dismissed out of hand by the Palestinians.
It has no bearing on this topic."

Technically, the topic is the fine for boycotting Israel goods. And technically the Palestinians DID consider the idea of a land swap but ultimately suggested that any land swap must be on a one-to-one ratio --- with land of equal value and in zones adjacent to the border with Palestine (not separate and isolated) and in the same area as the lands to be annexed by Israel. The Camp David proposal of a 9-to-1 land swap (in Israel's favor) was not going to work.

It also demanded that Palestinians give up any past or future claim to the occupied portions of Jerusalem.

So don't infer that the Palestinians gave up something incredible that was offered to them. In the Oslo Accords, for example, the "Palestinians recognized Israeli sovereignty over 78% of historic Palestine (23% more than Israel was actually given after the 1947 UN partition plan)" on the (erroneous) assumption that the Palestinians would be able to exercise sovereignty over the remaining 22%. So they have made concessions at times.

But any agreement that totally ignores the right to return is not going to work. There is a CLEARLY recognized right (under international law) that ANY non-combatants who flee during a conflict have the right to return after the conflict is over. By denying it to Palestinian refugees, Israel is snubbing the rest of the world's opinion.

All this together shows a clear unwillingness on the Israeli (or I guess mostly Zionist) part to ever come to a peaceful solution over the Palestinian issue. And if I know that, I should be able to show my disdain for it by boycotting any countries' products that support such an illegal occupation.

So hey, it is relevant.


Mycroft: "Put your mind at ease. Israel has always had a policy of encouraging access to the holy sites of all cultures."

Yes, except they want to completely control that access.


Jakomo


and Leveller, when you inevitably respond to my post with "you are full of hate blah blah" please include relevant quotes and examples of my apparent hate. And if you're arguing any of my points, please provide links (please, no .il ones, try to find some less subjective responses).

If you need links to any of my points, go to www.google.com and type in "camp david agreement land swap" in the search box and start reading.

[Edited on 17-8-2003 by Jakomo]