China's military closing the gap with U.S. of A.

Originally posted by WestPoint23

You are completely right about china not capable of taking on america in blue-water. the situation im talking about is the one in 1996 when america sent 2 carriers into the taiwan strait.

In 96 when the two carriers were sent through the Twain straight they were sent there as a show of force. You really don't think if a war with Taiwan broke out we would deny our carries into the Twain straight do you?

im saying that next time america decided to show force china will also show force.

Originally posted by chinawhite
i think if china ever got democracy it would be a very courrpt country. right now for a low offense courrption charge you would get 10-20 years. in a democracy for a high level charge you'll only get 7-15 years.. people will risk a small charge for 10-20 years think about if someone in a democracy will risk for a large sum of money?

Curruption is enourmously widespread, that's why the penalties are so severe, to try and curtail it. How do I know ? Becasue I do business there.

I heard the americans want china to have democracy so they can have more trade from china and lower the value of the Renminbi so america can have a advantage on china..

You heard wrong. China already has undervalued it's currency by 40% so as to make their exports cheaper. If the Yuan was truly floated, then China would be in a bit of strife, exports and hard currency would drop significantly ( which of course means that militray spending would have to be reduced ). If anything US manufacturers want the Yuan to be valued properly so as they have a chance to compete.

Everyone says how many students died.. does any one know how much soldiers died before the attack.. more than 5000 trying to level with these students using tear gas rubber bullets. these people were crazy people..

Gawd, sounds like you're talking out of your ass. You must have some incredibly poorly trained soldiers if you lost over 5000 to unarmed student protestors, especially when they were sitting on the ground. Also it seems very strabge that the Chinese government never mentioned these losses especially when the rest of the world percieved this to be a massacre of peaceful students. Either it NEVER happened or the governemtn was so embarrassed of it's army it kept it secret.

Originally posted by rogue1


Curruption is enourmously widespread, that's why the penalties are so severe, to try and curtail it. How do I know ? Becasue I do business there.

what part of china do you do business in?

You heard wrong. China already has undervalued it's currency by 40% so as to make their exports cheaper. If the Yuan was truly floated, then China would be in a bit of strife, exports and hard currency would drop significantly ( which of course means that militray spending would have to be reduced ). If anything US manufacturers want the Yuan to be valued properly so as they have a chance to compete..

i have heard overwise. china pegs their currency to the US dollar so we will have a more stable doller.

You might say that china needs to float their currency to help america but what does china get from it?

edition.cnn.com...
www.signonsandiego.com...

Letting yuan float could deter China growth
TAIWAN NEWS
www.etaiwannews.com...

U.S. Shifts Strategy on China Currency, From Float to Revaluation
www.nytimes.com...

Gawd, sounds like you're talking out of your ass. You must have some incredibly poorly trained soldiers if you lost over 5000 to unarmed student protestors, especially when they were sitting on the ground. Also it seems very strabge that the Chinese government never mentioned these losses especially when the rest of the world percieved this to be a massacre of peaceful students. Either it NEVER happened or the governemtn was so embarrassed of it's army it kept it secret.

i meant casualties.

400 soldiers were either missing or killed
5,000 soldiers injured
2,000 civilians were reported injured (government claim)
2600 people were killed (red cross estimate)
300 cillivans +soldiers(government claim)
30,000 injuried (red cross estimate)

Sitting on the ground??

They weren't killed in the square

students weren't actually killed in the square they were kiled trying to stop the army going to the square.

these protests weren't only students construction workers, umemployed and normal civillians...people think that the students made most of the protesters. but most of them were not students.

WTF.... research these things. they might not have had guns but they had molotv cocktails and knives.

www.alternativeinsight.com...
www.sourcewatch.org...
www.sinomania.com...

Originally posted by chinawhite

what part of china do you do business in?

Mainly Shanghai among other places

You heard wrong. China already has undervalued it's currency by 40% so as to make their exports cheaper. If the Yuan was truly floated, then China would be in a bit of strife, exports and hard currency would drop significantly ( which of course means that militray spending would have to be reduced ). If anything US manufacturers want the Yuan to be valued properly so as they have a chance to compete..

i have heard overwise. china pegs their currency to the US dollar so we will have a more stable doller.

You might say that china needs to float their currency to help america but what does china get from it?

Do you even remember what you right, I swear goldfish have a longer memory. You said that the US wanted the Yuan undervalued - I just said you are completely wrong - WHICH YOU ARE . LOL. An undervalued Yuan gives an overwhelming competative advantage to China.

The links you prvided just backed up what I said.

They weren't killed in the square

students weren't actually killed in the square they were kiled trying to stop the army going to the square.

these protests weren't only students construction workers, umemployed and normal civillians...people think that the students made most of the protesters. but most of them were not students.

WTF.... research these things. they might not have had guns but they had molotv cocktails and knives.

Seems amazing that the Chinese governemnt never mentioned this at the time lol. Especially a country well versed in propaganda.
Whom a knife and a molotov against what trained soldiers with crew served weapons and tanks. Hell, in my country we call in the riot police, not an armoured force with one purporse only .... to crush and kill.

[edit on 21-6-2005 by rogue1]

Originally posted by rogue1

Seems amazing that the Chinese governemnt never mentioned this at the time lol. Especially a country well versed in propaganda.
Whom a knife and a molotov against what trained soldiers with crew served weapons and tanks. Hell, in my country we call in the riot police, not an armoured force with one purporse only .... to crush and kill.

in the city their were around 3 to 5 million protesters in beijing and heavily out-numbered the police. they tried tear gas and rubber bullets but were overcome by large numbers of protesters that caught them and bashed them to death then burnt them. i can find numerous pictures if you like..

the chinese government did release these numbers 2 days after the western media never paid attention only focused on student casulties..

The soldiers were never order to kill the cillivans but to clear the square after martial law had been in place for over a week.

Deng Xiaoping wanted no deaths to result from breaking up the demonstrators and clearing Tiananmen Square. Chinese leaders instructed the army that soldiers should not turn their weapons on innocent civilians, even if provoked. For the most part, this desire was realized. But as troops and tanks made their way to the square confrontations erupted on the streets of Beijing. According to government and eye witness reports, most of the deaths occurred when tanks crashed through barricades erected at the Muxidi bridge, in the western suburbs of Beijing.

Other than the official Chinese information, no reliable evidence of deaths has ever been produced by anyone on either side of the issue. As Jay Mathews, former Beijing bureau chief for the Washington Post has said, there is no evidence anyone died in Tiananmen Square. Yet no journalist or politician outside China has ever attempted to correct the record. Instead the myth that thousands of unarmed people were deliberately mowed down by their own government is spread as part of an unacknowledged campaign of misinformation led by sinophobic press and politicians.

On May 20, martial law was declared. This, by itself, was not sufficient to end the demonstrations, which continued with popular support. After several weeks, a decision was made to forcibly clear the Square of protesters. Entry of the troops into the city was actively opposed by many citizens of Beijing, whose resistance resulted in military casualties. Extensive roadblocks constructed by the citizens of Beijing slowed progress, but the Square was cleared of demonstrators during the night of June 4. The battle continued on the streets surrounding the Square, with protesters repeatedly advancing toward the heavily armed troops of the People's Liberation Army (PLA), who responded with automatic weapons fire. Many injured citizens were saved by rickshaw drivers who ventured into the no-man's-land between the soldiers and crowds and carried the wounded off to hospitals.

"The resilient tale of an early morning Tiananmen massacre stems from several false eyewitness accounts in the confused hours and days after the crackdown. Human rights experts George Black and Robin Munro, both outspoken critics of the Chinese government, trace many of the rumor's roots in their 1993 book, Black Hands of Beijing: Lives of Defiance in China's Democracy Movement. Probably the most widely disseminated account appeared first in the Hong Kong press: a Qinghua University student described machine guns mowing down students in front of the Monument to the People's Heroes in the middle of the square. The New York Times gave this version prominent display on June 12, just a week after the event, but no evidence was ever found to confirm the account or verify the existence of the alleged witness. Times reporter Nicholas Kristof challenged the report the next day, in an article that ran on the bottom of an inside page; the myth lived on. Student leader Wu'er Kaixi said he had seen 200 students cut down by gunfire, but it was later proven that he left the square several hours before the events he described allegedly occurred.

i high-lighted this area because its a example of why this event was so badly reported.



www.sinomania.com...

please read all of this

Originally posted by rogue1

Mainly Shanghai among other places

wow excellent

Do you even remember what you right, I swear goldfish have a longer memory. You said that the US wanted the Yuan undervalued - I just said you are completely wrong - WHICH YOU ARE . LOL. An undervalued Yuan gives an overwhelming competative advantage to China.

The links you prvided just backed up what I said.

you mistook what i ment..i ment undervalued as in harder to trade in thats why i posted all those articles.

a undervalue yuan also helps keep inflation down(from what i read)

im saying that next time america decided to show force china will also show force.

Show of force where? In the Taiwan straight? And for what purpose?

space, missile imported weapons

Every space program leads to military advancement...

you cant launch f-15s off a carrier. (i think)

The ideas have been considered, and it is possible.

We have airbases in the region.

why couldn't china deploy a thousand aircraft?

Because first, they aren't all in the same area. The aircraft are spread out across China. Second. there are other things to consider besides whether the planes can fly. China already has a fragile communication network from what I hear.

i dont know thats why i asked why. if you export only 795billion and import 1.47trillion thats a trade deficit or does america make up the money from selling government bonds?

Read:
www.freetrade.org...

any proof of that?

That's how nations function. If its beneficial, nothing else matters.

You might say that china needs to float their currency to help america but what does china get from it?

By keeping a low currency, China is able to produce goods at cheaper rates. By pegging their currency to America's, they are able to keep it artificially low.

It doesn't help America at all, and that's why America is trying to get China to unpeg it.

The soldiers were never order to kill the cillivans but to clear the square after martial law had been in place for over a week.

And they cleared the square by simply opening up fire at the crowds without warning...

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer


The ideas have been considered, and it is possible.

We have airbases in the region.

i wrote i think to confuse you. i already knew you couldn't deploy normal fighters from a carrier

any articles any proof. you need to strengthen aircraft landing gear re-train polits for carrier take-offs. amny things before you can even think of that. and where are they going to be stored.

name countries that will help.

Because first, they aren't all in the same area. The aircraft are spread out across China. Second. there are other things to consider besides whether the planes can fly. China already has a fragile communication network from what I hear.

read up on chinese airbases.
www.fas.org...

we have more than 1500 aircraft within 500mile radius

Read:
www.freetrade.org...

Economic theory and experience demonstrate that trade deficits are driven primarily by macroeconomic factors, in particular investment flows, and not by allegedly unfair trade barriers or declining industrial competitiveness.

even your article states what im saying

By keeping a low currency, China is able to produce goods at cheaper rates. By pegging their currency to America's, they are able to keep it artificially low.

It doesn't help America at all, and that's why America is trying to get China to unpeg it.

but it helps china maintain a stable economy. and stops inflation.

And they cleared the square by simply opening up fire at the crowds without warning...

Clearded the square??????

no-one was killed in the square....


This is exactly the same thing that happened when we were dicussing the korean war. your claims about communist aircraft having air superioty when you didn't even know where the air battle was fought

Originally posted by WestPoint23

im saying that next time america decided to show force china will also show force.

Show of force where? In the Taiwan straight? And for what purpose?

Read up on the 1996 incident...

america sent carriers into taiwan strait to show force. dont invade or we will attack...

China White I have already given you a list of countries the US has airbases in that region, plus like I said deploying the bulk of China’s aircraft in one battle would be stupid and useless. The more aircraft you have the easier they will be to shoot down, especially the old bulky type that have no stealth features at all.


[edit on 22-6-2005 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
China White I have already given you a list of countries the US has airbases in that region, plus like I said deploying the bulk of China’s aircraft in one battle would be stupid and useless. The more aircraft you have the easier they will be to shoot down, especially the old bulky type that have no stealth features at all.


[edit on 22-6-2005 by WestPoint23]

and i asked for links/proof. beause im a skeptic

The US would never park carriers in the Taiwan Strait, they'd be blown to pieces, not too mention China's SSK's would be very effective in such confined waters.

If the US were to take on China in their own backyard they would need far more than 2 carriers, 5+ would be more like it. They couldn't be concentrated either as they would be too vulnerable unless ell out to sea.

5 or more carriers? All the U.S. would need to defend Taiwan is 2 having that many carriers would be over kill, the U.S. would not put all of its egg's in one basket it would never risk the entire Pacific fleet on an engagement.

any articles any proof. you need to strengthen aircraft landing gear re-train polits for carrier take-offs. amny things before you can even think of that. and where are they going to be stored.

The only problem would be the landing gear of the plane.

name countries that will help.

Japan, Australia, Afghanistan, South Korea and even Taiwan.

we have more than 1500 aircraft within 500mile radius

That's not a small distance, and that's not talking about how many can be put in the air at once.

even your article states what im saying

What are you talking about? That America has a trade deficit? No one denies that. I was taling about the effects of a trade deficit.

but it helps china maintain a stable economy. and stops inflation

And this does what for America...? The point was how America and the rest of the world are effected, and how China's economy is kept going by artificial barriers.

no-one was killed in the square....

Yea, people were just seriously wounded, right?

This is exactly the same thing that happened when we were dicussing the korean war. your claims about communist aircraft having air superioty when you didn't even know where the air battle was fought

I don't even remember arguing over this in any topic with you. I don't think you have any clue what you're saying half the time.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer


The only problem would be the landing gear of the plane.

wrong there is a lot more than just landing gear. you would need a higher thrust engine and larger landing area

Japan, Australia, Afghanistan, South Korea and even Taiwan.

you can rule out south korea,afganistan. and australia.

That's not a small distance, and that's not talking about how many can be put in the air at once.

supplies? communication?

What are you talking about? That America has a trade deficit? No one denies that. I was taling about the effects of a trade deficit.

And this does what for America...? The point was how America and the rest of the world are effected, and how China's economy is kept going by artificial barriers.

rest of the world??? only america is affected because of their urge to buy consumer goods.

Yea, people were just seriously wounded, right?

no-one was even injured in the square...

I don't even remember arguing over this in any topic with you. I don't think you have any clue what you're saying half the time.

. The communist forces held air superiority for about half the war.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

hello


you didn't have a clue where the battle was fought

Thefts of U.S. technology boost China's weaponry

China is stepping up its overt and covert efforts to gather intelligence and technology in the United States, and the activities have boosted Beijing's plans to rapidly produce advanced-weapons systems.
"I think you see it where something that would normally take 10 years to develop takes them two or three," said David Szady, chief of FBI counterintelligence operations.
He said the Chinese are prolific collectors of secrets and military-related information.
"What we're finding is that [the spying is] much more focused in certain areas than we ever thought, such as command and control and things of that sort," Mr. Szady said.

The danger of Chinese technology acquisition is that if the United States were called on to fight a war with China over the Republic of China (Taiwan), U.S. forces could find themselves battling a U.S.-equipped enemy.

The Chinese intelligence services use a variety of methods to spy, including traditional intelligence operations targeting U.S. government agencies and defense contractors.
Additionally, the Chinese use hundreds of thousands of Chinese visitors, students and other nonprofessional spies to gather valuable data, most of it considered "open source," or unclassified information.

China's spies use as many as 3,200 front companies -- many run by groups linked to the Chinese military -- that are set up to covertly obtain information, equipment and technology, U.S. officials say.
In other cases, China has dispatched students, short-term visitors, businesspeople and scientific delegations with the objective of stealing technology and other secrets.

The Chinese "are very good at being where the information is," Mr. Szady said.

Paul D. Moore, a former FBI intelligence specialist on China, said the Chinese use a variety of methods to get small pieces of information through numerous collectors, mostly from open, public sources.

The three main Chinese government units that run intelligence operations are the Ministry of State Security, the military intelligence department of the People's Liberation Army and a small group known as the Liaison Office of the General Political Department of the Chinese army, said Mr. Moore, now with the private Centre for Counterintelligence Studies.

China gleans most of its important information not from spies but from unwitting American visitors to China -- from both the U.S. government and the private sector -- who are "serially indiscreet" in disclosing information sought by Beijing, Mr. Moore said in a recent speech.

ICE agents are trying hard to stop illegal exports to China and several other states, including Iran and Syria, not just by halting individual exports but by shutting down networks of illegal exporters, Mr. Schoch said.
Another concern is that China is a known arms proliferator, so weapons and related technology that are smuggled there can be sent to other states of concern.
"Yes, some of this stuff may go to China, but then it could be diverted to other countries," Mr. Schoch said. "And that is the secondary proliferation. Who knows where it may end up."
As with China's military buildup, China's drive for advanced technology with military applications has been underestimated by the U.S. intelligence community.
A report prepared for the congressional U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission found predictions that China was unable to advance technologically were false.

"Predictions a decade ago of slow Chinese [science and technology] progress have now proved to be false," the report stated.
Unlike the United States, China does not distinguish between civilian and military development. The same factories in China that make refrigerators also are used to make long-range ballistic missiles.

Full Article Here
www.washtimes.com...

I find this report very disturbing that China's devotion to illegal piracy continues to compromise global security, with more & more of our counter-terror manpower (& tax dollars) now having to be dedicated to targetting not only illegal shipments to China, but entire networks of illegal exporters, while also having to track possible corporate espionage and their secret proliferations to rogue nations. Very taxing times ahead dealing with the Thieves Black Market of China.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

any articles any proof. you need to strengthen aircraft landing gear re-train polits for carrier take-offs. amny things before you can even think of that. and where are they going to be stored.

The only problem would be the landing gear of the plane.

name countries that will help.

Japan, Australia, Afghanistan, South Korea and even Taiwan.

I'm guessing from the political climate and due to a current Free Trade Negotiation that's going on with China that Australia might take a step back from and US-China Conflict. Our foreign minister said Australia would not neccessarily help the US, but then the Prime Minister being the arse kisser he is backtracked on the comment.

yeah australia wouldn't help in a war with their 2nd largest trade partner

wrong there is a lot more than just landing gear. you would need a higher thrust engine and larger landing area

More room? The F-14 is 50% bigger then the F-22. It has more thrust.

you can rule out south korea,afganistan. and australia.

You don't even try and give an explanation? What exactly is wrong with those nations? They are all strong allies. We built Afghanistan's government. Australia and South Korea have both gone into Iraq with us, and contributed large numbers of troops.

rest of the world??? only america is affected because of their urge to buy consumer goods

More like the entire developed world who buys Chinese goods. And China would be #ed because without the low prices goods, they loose massive amounts of investment.

no-one was even injured in the square...

Bull. There were interviews and pictures done with people in the square who were injured.

you didn't have a clue where the battle was fought

I remembered my statement, you just didn't specifically address it in the entire topic. There was no argument on it. And what I said is entirely true.

I'm guessing from the political climate and due to a current Free Trade Negotiation that's going on with China that Australia might take a step back from and US-China Conflict. Our foreign minister said Australia would not neccessarily help the US, but then the Prime Minister being the arse kisser he is backtracked on the comment.

You're confusing Taiwan with America.

And in all out war between America and China, Australia's trade with China is going to be shut down, anyway. Nothing would be coming in or out of China by way of sea. The best bet they have is to simply end the war as quickly as possible, and that's done by helping America in the end.