It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Not a "conspiracy" - Link to a fact ! Proof 2004 Prez Election was stolen !!

page: 2
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 04:39 PM
link   
Syntaxer says:


Although your scholarly comments are always well laid out and a pleasure to read, however, my opinion is that you search for excuses rather than probe into the probability of a conspiracy theory. Of course no offence to you, I'm sure you have the intellectual capacity to embrace a reasonable/probable conspiracy theory when you see one.


Don't you realize that both you and The Libra work for us (in your case, you've been programmed so deeply that you aren't aware of it) so that you'll spend all your time arguing among yourselves and you won't realize that we're taking over the world?

Best wishes,

Bill (der Berg).




posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 05:10 PM
link   
I am with you open secret 2012
I do think you need to visit the 'BLACKBOX" voting site...
it has some more info you need to make your case...

the election was a controled stageplay for our pleasure (or pain)

there are no "political parties" except on the surface...

dems or reps, doesn't make a difference if you are in skull and bones...
they work for one mission... and it doesn't have nothing to do with donkeys and elephants...
for more elaborate examples of election fraud and coverup see 14000 negative votes?

yep... it happened in 2000 also...14000 negative votes...
didn't think that could happen... did ya?
except i don't think Gore was in on it (Kerry was IMO) I dunno... anyone know if Gore is a skull and bones man?



[edit on 16-6-2005 by LazarusTheLong]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 05:15 PM
link   
Skull and Bones is the German chapter of a Bavarian secret society very well-known to most conspiracy theorists. Both founders (William H. Russell and Alphonso Taft) of the Skull & Bones studied in Germany before they even founded S & B.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 06:30 PM
link   
It's a sad truth and i was on this before the election, i knew what they were planning. You can be assured that they will do this again and whoever runs for the republican party next term has already won the presidency.

Now that we know their strategy we can prepare for 2008. I think we need to create a threat that we(the people) are going to hack the election for the democrats. This could make sure that the FBI, if not corrupt
, would monitor the servers fairly and check the source code for concealed code. If we don't do anything now they will keep getting away with this crime for many many decades to come.

We could also ensure that some person who would normally get 1% of the vote wins just to force them to deal with the issue. Maybe ensure Ralph Nader wins or something, that would be funny.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 06:36 PM
link   
Any chance we could keep the subject relevant to the video presented here? So I saw it, and ok,
but is not conclusive proof that the 2004 election was rigged in Ohio or nationally. But I do wonder how long that guy managed to live after that...



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 07:15 PM
link   
Well in my honest opinon, Dubya is crooked.

I have not had the evidence presented that he infact stole it but in the end it wouldn't have mattered anyway since they are all controlled from the same centralized government, a black government obscured by layers and layers of organizations.

OtS, I really think you are one of the better members on this board, but i'd like to ask you something.

No matter if it's 9/11, TR-3B, Little grey men or the Presidential race, you always feel the need to debunk these theories, do you simply not believe it and feel the need for others to believe what you believe? I never heard something like: 'it could be possible in this and that way' but all I hear is you debunking


However, I completely agree with your statement on Chemtrails, I don't buy into this theory at all, but are there any conspiracy theories you actually believe?

Well it's good to have a resident skeptic though, kinda a Skully and Mulder kinda deal



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 07:23 PM
link   
Skull & Bones has NOTHING to do with the election of 2004! Skull & Bones is a college fraternity! Plus, John Kerry is in Skull & Bones!! So, if both Kerry and Bush are Skull & Bones, there would be no need to steal the election even if they could which they can't and don't want too.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 08:34 PM
link   
Well, since the author admitted this is NOT a conspiracy, I think this should go where all the election-type topics went: PTS.



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 08:37 AM
link   
"Not A Conspiricy - Its A F A C T !!! "

Very good video, thank you for brigning it to our attention.


But next time your going to go on a rant that insults the reader's intelligence, you should probably spell CONSPIRACY correctly!



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by syntaxer
Regarding the photo avatar, it's actually Robert Caradine from the Revenge of the Nerds series.


That was actually my second guess (truly, it was), but danged if he and young Rick Moranis aren't the spitting image of each other. Truth be told, I thought Rick Moranis -was- the lead from the RotN series. Anyway, groovy avi. I always kinda picture him speaking your words.


Originally posted by syntaxer
I must admit libra, I have noticed you enjoy the role of a sobering nature, you do provide a strong case to defend your stance on over the counter conspiracy theories, meaning one could potentially buy into it just about anywhere.


It's my lot in life... I don't put much stock in astrology, but by some odd stretch of circumstance, I am Libra to a "T". Fence-sitter extraordinaire, Devil's Advocate, and Mediator... all things must be balanced, sorta thing, including conspiracies and normalcy.


Originally posted by syntaxer
Although your scholarly comments are always well laid out and a pleasure to read, however, my opinion is that you search for excuses rather than probe into the probability of a conspiracy theory. Of course no offence to you,


Oh, none taken at all. You are 100% right, actually, except in one aspect. I don't limit myself to debunking conspiracy theories. I take the opposing viewpoint in most posts, for no other reason than to make the poster think more, or research further, to defend their viewpoint. That way, if someone says "They Grays control McDonalds!", and leave it with little in the way of proof, I try to force them to make a more coherent and stable arguement for their case. If they can't provide evidence, only unsupported statements, then I know not to waste my time with them in the future (unless they have a really good sense of humor, or otherwise entertani me). If they provide great rebuttals to my counterpoints, then I know I have found a new friend.


Originally posted by syntaxer
I'm sure you have the intellectual capacity to embrace a reasonable/probable conspiracy theory when you see one.


Oh, there's one I whole-heartedly embrace. Unfortunately, since it's also the plot of a triliogy that I'm still writing, I cannot divulge it at this time. But let's just say it makes the whole Bavarian Illuminati thing look like the kiddy pool.


Originally posted by syntaxer
On that note, John Heinz was assassinated in a freak helicopter small plane crash which undoubtedly was a missile/global hawk. So you better accept that Libra, cus stone cold Rick Moranis said so!
(jk)


Oh. Well, if Rick Moranis said it, it's gotta be true! All Hail The Shrinker!
Actually, though, I'll have to look into this whole Heinz/Bilderberg link thingy. I've yet to go research the Bilderbergs... my recent research kick was a massacre over in China...well, that and chiggers... turns out they don't burrow into the legs after all.


Originally posted by syntaxer
Most importantly, we should also question the methods of how they tend to stay in the White House and the criminal activity which may follow. No countering that comment Libra when I can clearly throw Nixon to solidify my argument!



But...but...Nixon resigned. Then he went into hiding. He didn't stay in office once it was found out. That and, well, he -did- get us out of 'Nam. It was too late for poor ol' Doc and the Twins, but at least Maw an' I got out okay.

But on to your question of "how" they tend to stay in the White House. While I will admit it is definitely a possibility that there is some big global conspiracy of layers upon layers shadow governments keeping them in power, I believe a much simpler explanation is more probable explanation is that American voters are just plain f---ing lazy.

If "We The People" truly cared, there is no way the voice of the vast majority could be ignored. The people would demand blood or offer bloody revolution. Granted the true culprits might sit safely behind their desks, while the political equivolent of a whipping boy is ousted shamefully from their post and takes the fall, but it would bring the process to a halt until such time as "They" could find a sneakier way of attempting the same thing again later.

But instead, most people get it into their heads that, for one reason or another, they don't need to vote, or that their vote doesn't matter. Those are the truest enemy of all, because they can't be bothered to take 10 minutes out of one day every four years to go vote their conscience. Countless billions of lives over five thousand years lost to eventually creating a country where the common person need do nothing more than be a citizen in order to vote, and they can't even honor that time and those lives with ten minutes of their life every four years. I'd like to put my foot so far up their.......(deep breath). Sorry. I had a Red Foreman moment there.

Anyway, the truth of the matter is, the electoral vote is based upon the popular vote, even though they don't always match up, it's still a fairly good indicator. And if the vote was 75% to 25%, there would be absolutely no level of election fraud capable of covering it up. This again, is fact. Remember the March 26 election fraud in Dagestan that made international headlines? This is in a country that, up until 20 years ago, didn't even have a free press, and I'd be willing to wager cold hard cash that no one here had ever even heard of Dagestan before the fraud took place. Now imagine if a nation the size of America, with the same freedom of press, attempted such a thing. And before someone goes saying "it did", keep in mind that the 3k or so unaccounted for votes would not have been enough to sway the electoral vote in favor of Kerry, nor has there been any concrete evidence other than circumstantial and one vague testimony. If the other almost 100 million voters had cared enough to vote, it could have gone a different way, or it might have gone the same way.

So why does the Old Boys Network stay in power? Because:

1.) They have the money and political clout to get heard the most often.
2.) The lazy voter goes with name recognition, rather than bother reading up on issues, and the incumbant has name recognition.
3.) The even lazier non-voters allow for about 25-30%% of American registered voters to control the election instead of 50+%
4.) They have more experience in the field than their challengers, usually.

Does this make it right? No. Does it make it possible, and even probable, without some shadow government, or illuminati? Yes.



Originally posted by syntaxer
My parents immigrated to America from Asia when I was 12, so I'm American and proud of it
However,


Even if you weren't American, you'd still be cool in my book. I'm curious which country in Asia though. I'm pretty big into both the Japanese and Chinese cultures, and to a smaller degree, the Korean and Thai culture. At one point in time, I was seriously considering travelling to Tibet becoming a monk for the rest of my life. I'd pretty much decided I would, then I met my fiance, and changed my mind.


Originally posted by syntaxer
I currently reside in Toronto Canada 'eh' where I work for an enviromental solutions company. At times, you might notice I do suffer from having to learn the english language at a later development stage than most individuals, vocabulary wise.


Truthfully, I had never noticed anything lacking in your English skills. In point of fact (and this isn't just to be nice), your command of the English language is far superior to most of the native speakers on this forum.


Originally posted by syntaxer
Perot's critics (and Hollywood which is controlled btw) routinely brand him as "crazy" to squash growing public support for a new party, in Perot's case the Reform.


I never thought he was crazy, I just lost confidence in him as a leader when he pulled out of the election, and then tried to get back in. Had he remained steadfast, I think he honestly would have had a shot at winning, or at least making the reform party a major contender for the vote that year. But when a man backs out of a race for the Presidency due to "threats", that tells me he can't handle the pressure of the real deal.


Originally posted by syntaxer
Perot is a servant agent, or crazy court jester to disinform American citizens that would solidify a two-party system in American politics for good (rep/dem). Now everyone thinks voting on a 3rd tier political party is absolutely ludicrous. Ross Perot NWO mission accomplished paving way in the systematical takeover of mankind..... hehehe


Errr... no, I'm pretty sure he was just a business man with some really great ideas for the country, who unfortunately couldn't handle the pressure of one of the highest-stakes games in the world. I would agree, however, that he pretty much ruined the 3rd-party chances in the process.

Interestingly, though, if the other 1/2 of registered voters got up off their arse and voted, they could overwhelm the two other parties with any candidate they wanted.


Originally posted by syntaxer
Meaning we're doomed...


(in the voice of Grrr) "Now I sing the song of Doom. DOOM Doom doom DOOM dOoM doOm DOoM DoOm dOOm DOOM Doom doom DOOM dOoM doOm DOoM DoOm dOOm DOOM Doom doom DOOM dOoM doOm DOoM DoOm dOOm..."

(six months later) "DOOM Doom doom DOOM dOoM doOm DOoM DoOm dOOooOooOOoM!"




Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Don't you realize that both you and The Libra work for us (in your case, you've been programmed so deeply that you aren't aware of it) so that you'll spend all your time arguing among yourselves and you won't realize that we're taking over the world?


Yes, Master! By the way, I've been wondering about that raise. I was promised 76 Trombones AND Vestal Virgins as a bonus for operation "Iraq Wookiee Defense". Instead, I received 2 jaw harps, and a sack of fish. What gives?



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:28 AM
link   

Originally posted by feyd rautha
Sometimes i meet people who talk nonsence to me, like you, on the subway. First i tell them with a friendly smile on my face to go to hell, if they do not respect my warning and take my smile as an invitation to speak on, i bitchslap them untill they cry for mercy. i am not a violent psycho, but for some people words are just not enought. i really would enjoy to meet you on the subs one day.


Your post makes no sence. Your talking about people on purpose coming up to you, invading your hearing space. No one forced you to read this thread, or to continue reading it. You nullify your statement that your a non-violent person. Me on the other hand? I enjoy a good physical fight now and then. Mosts of the time I dont start them, (sometimes I do, but rarely.) But I love finnishing them -

I travel on buisness to many cities in the USA. Name the state, city, time, and location, color cloths you'll be wearing, type of outfit you'll be wearing... you want to meet me so that you can "bitchslap" me until I "cry for mercy." LOL! Expect me to be a skinny, 90lb, pale, bony, geeky geek, pants up to the armpits, with thick glasses. Like that avatar pic used by one of the posters in this thread LOL!
You have no idea how wonderful the internet is in allowing people to talk smack without having to back it up LOL!

Oh yeah, I never walk up to strangers and talk to them for no reason, and never after they tell me to "go to hell". So you'd never end up with me acting like the people you talk about.

[edit on 17-6-2005 by OpenSecret2012]



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by backtoreality
That's very convenient. You make an outrageous claim, but have a failsafe in that anyone who disagrees is stupid.

Let me explain:

The sun is smaller than the Earth. Science is a big lie to conceal the truth. Don't believe science. If you do, then you are stupid.


See! Two can play that game.


No outrageous claims were made. I didn't make that video. I didn't hire some actors and rent a courtroom and film all that stuff. Everything is at the link in my first post. Using your example, it'd be if someone took a spaceship, with a bunch of cameras on it, and flew around the sun, then came back to earth. Hell, it'd be as if 50 people in 50 spaceships did the same thing cuz there must've been roughly 50 people in that crowed courtroom all witnessing everything.

The only failsafe I used, was mentioning the Skull and Bones secret society which makes it impossible for anyone to accuse me of hating Republicans and liking Democrats. Cuz it's a hardcore fact the Skull & Bones own both republicans and democrats heheh.
Bush and Kerry are both on record being questioned about their membership in the same secret society.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Well, thelibra said it infinitely more succinctly than I'm able...

So where is this hard evidence, exactly?


(oh. About the nutrasweet thing. Books are also available about how chocolate causes cancer, about how tap water is causing cancer in England, and a zillion other topics - publishing a book does not imply there's any truth therein)


If your asking about the title and subject of this thread, the evidence is at the link I repeatedly posted over and over so no one could miss it. Save it to your comp, then listen to everything in that courtroom.

If your talking about my tangent about why all the evidence of wrongdoing won't cause any stir, wont change a d----n thing, yeah it's a book. But not like any other book since it lists all its sources, including the US military, pilots from major airlines, cops, police, praticing doctors, the actual members of the FDA, (including the guy who resigned form the FDA in protest of aspartame/Nutra-Sweet being put into food products.) and more. All names are given, and used. Publishing a book that names names, lists detailed graphic sources, and proof, not only implies truth therin, it blatantly shows the truth. It's your choice if you want to caste judgement without ever reading the entire book first. Its the choice of everyone else here if they have no problem first checking out the book before coming to any conclusions.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

syntaxer,

You're 100% on target! I even learned some extra info from your post! Thank you!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Originally posted by syrinx high priest
Al Gore is an outsider, he won the 2000 election and most of the world knew the obvious. Sure he caused a stink, but flash the might and power of the Bilderbergs/Skulls/NWO and their love of air plane assassinations, well, let's just say you would've conceded too.


1)the popular vote does not decide the election, the electoral college does.
2) Al gore didn't carry his HOME state of tenn. All he had to do to win was win the state he grew up in.


Let me ask you this:

Then why even have a popular vote in teh first place? LOL!
If as you say the electorial college decides the election(s)?



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 10:05 AM
link   

Originally posted by Boatphone
Skull & Bones has NOTHING to do with the election of 2004! Skull & Bones is a college fraternity! Plus, John Kerry is in Skull & Bones!! So, if both Kerry and Bush are Skull & Bones, there would be no need to steal the election even if they could which they can't and don't want too.


You make a good effort at it. But yep there's a reason.
See the majority of the public, the masses, still believe in the system. Still believe the popular, the public, vote decides the election. So Kerry and Bush, and on a much higher level, the Skull n Bones secret society, and on a waaay higher level, other bigger secret societies, continue pretending things are what the masses believe.

Why throw away a ruse that's still working? Why should the secret societies stop using a trick that still works to their advantage? As David Icke says in his books -

Overt Dictatorships don't last as long because its in the open. No one can avoid it. No one can play pretend. Covert Dictatorships on the other hand, are another animal. They last the longest cuz the public believes they are free. There's a very famous guy who also made a quote about this. (I can't remember his name right now.) The secret societies run a covert dictatorship. Its much easier to rule, and keep your power, if the masses believe they're free.

The republicans pretend to be against the democrats. The democrats pretend to be against the republicans. Icke even coined a term, he calls such situations "opposames". (He lists many, many, opposames in his books. "The Biggest Secret", "And The Truth Shall Set You Free", and others. At every major bookstore, including Barnes & Noble. They allow customers to read for free or buy em and read em at home.) On the surface they are opposites. But on a deeper, deeper, deeper, level.... or in the bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger, picture, they are the same.

Just like people still vote, even though its the electorial college that really decides who wins, not the public.

You still believe no election was stolen, ever was stolen, and can never be stolen. Did you watch the video at my link in the first post on page 1?

Do you believe the Electorial College doesnt exist?



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 10:10 AM
link   

Originally posted by OpenSecret2012 Then why even have a popular vote in teh first place? LOL!
If as you say the electorial college decides the election(s)?



Aw jeez...

Does ANYONE pay attention in class anymore? Or do they just listen to the same regurgitated crap that the ignorant have been feeding each other for generations?

If you don't know why there's an electoral college, or even whether or not they control the vote, how on Earth can you expect anyone to take you seriously when you claim election fraud?

Your assignment is to look up (on a REPUTABLE site, like Wikipedia) the Electoral vote vs. the Popular vote, how it works, and why it was instituted, and if you can't be bothered to learn it, you really have no business posting anything regarding the current voting system.

Yargh! Sorry, it just really makes me mad when people can't even be bothered to look up HOW the voting works, and then go about bashing the system in ignorance.



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 10:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Don't you realize that both you and The Libra work for us (in your case, you've been programmed so deeply that you aren't aware of it) so that you'll spend all your time arguing among yourselves and you won't realize that we're taking over the world?


There is a distinctive difference between taking over the world and potentially destroying it. The repercussions in delivering a deceptive message of "spreading freedom and democracy" through death and destruction has clearly put us on a path to a highly prophesied end of times.

Anyways, I only devludge into conspiracy theories because i consider it good entertainment slash alternative exlination of the unknown. I wear a tie monday to friday not a tin-foil hat....



[edit on 17-6-2005 by syntaxer]



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 12:33 PM
link   
Old, and not true. To assume that Bush stole the election would to assume he was smart enough to do it. Well recent public appearances clearly demonstrate he is not. I am republican and I did vote the man in twice but will say, he is not as bright as daddy but he certainly beats Kerry anyday.

Anytime someone loses anything, someone is bound to cry "foul". When you lose, just learn to suck it up like a man and try again in the next election vs whining "its not fair, its not fair".



posted on Jun, 18 2005 @ 09:37 AM
link   

Originally posted by the_oleneo
Skull and Bones is the German chapter of a Bavarian secret society very well-known to most conspiracy theorists. Both founders (William H. Russell and Alphonso Taft) of the Skull & Bones studied in Germany before they even founded S & B.


Thank you for proving and showing everyone that the Skull n Bones secret society isnt "some college fraternaty". It was originally started by people who didn't attend Yale college. Who werent even college students. They were grown men, already members of other secret societies, with an agenda.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Originally posted by Memorialday1999
Old, and not true. To assume that Bush stole the election would to assume he was smart enough to do it. Well recent public appearances clearly demonstrate he is not. I am republican and I did vote the man in twice but will say, he is not as bright as daddy but he certainly beats Kerry anyday.

Anytime someone loses anything, someone is bound to cry "foul". When you lose, just learn to suck it up like a man and try again in the next election vs whining "its not fair, its not fair".


Nowhere did I say "Bush stole the election". Nowhere! I made sure to say where it leads to (Bush, republicans), and where it ultimatly leads to (Skull n Bones secret society.)

Also, when a guy wins or loses an election, its never cuz of him! It's him AND his teams of workers - the people behind the scenes.
The current Bush prez is the perfect puppet of the people behind the scenes. Proof he's not intelligent is when he claimed he was reading that book, but it was upside down. LOL!
But he's intelligent enough to be the perfect puppet for Rumsfeld, and higher up, the people who run, control, the Democrats - the Skull n Bones secret society. (and the people in the even bigger secret societies who control and run the Skull n Bones secret society.)

[edit on 18-6-2005 by OpenSecret2012]



posted on Jun, 18 2005 @ 09:53 AM
link   
Just FYI, regarding the "upside down book" thing.

This has been debunked several times.

Unless of course Snopes are also part of a great conspiracy.



(I'm constantly amazed by this phenomenon - we're so keen to believe readily debunked urban legend, not even bothering to fact-check ourselves, yet we won't accept pages and pages of scientific, verifiable evidence relating to certain ohhhh I don't know.... 9/11 airplane issues, etc etc. Strange habits, non?)



posted on Jun, 18 2005 @ 10:39 AM
link   

Originally posted by Tinkleflower
Just FYI, regarding the "upside down book" thing.

This has been debunked several times.

Unless of course Snopes are also part of a great conspiracy.



(I'm constantly amazed by this phenomenon - we're so keen to believe readily debunked urban legend, not even bothering to fact-check ourselves, yet we won't accept pages and pages of scientific, verifiable evidence relating to certain ohhhh I don't know.... 9/11 airplane issues, etc etc. Strange habits, non?)



Nice try. But that link nullifies itself!



The picture above was taken during an appearance President Bush made with the Governor of Texas, Rick Perry, at the George Sanchez Charter School in Houston during the summer of 2002


The picture of Bush with the upside down book was in Florida, in 2001. Major TV stations have it recorded. It was the moment when Bush was told the 1st plane hit the WTC. Then a few mins later, when Bush was told the 2nd plane hit the WTC. During the entire time, he was supposivly reading a book, but it was upside down.


Also from the link you gave:


Incidentally, the book shown in this photograph is America: A Patriotic Primer, by Lynne Cheney, wife of Vice-President Dick Cheney.


The true name of the book is "My Pet Goat". More proof that the wanna-be debunkers of the true upside down book incident, didn't even do a good job attempting to debunk it LOL! The debunkers have been debunked!!!

Incidently, in the movie "Farenheit 911", it shows the entire scene in all its glory. Moore shows the video taken by local Florida TV news media (Moore didnt record the video himself LOL) The fact that Michael Moore refused to pick up on it, or talk about it, shows on some level Michael Moore is owned, is a puppet, gets a "tap on the shoulder", has people above him pulling his strings LOL!


[edit on 18-6-2005 by OpenSecret2012]



posted on Jun, 18 2005 @ 11:03 AM
link   
Sorry, but Fahrenheit 9/11 was completely lacking in objectivity and was just as biased (and therefore questionable in terms of evidence) as any other rabidly anti- or pro- conspiracy fodder.

Moore, whilst a dab hand at certain types of journalism, shot himself in the foot (so to speak) on that one; while there were issues of veracity about BFC, the same trend of perhaps "manipulating certain facts" in F9/11 was exaggerated to the point where it undermined the real facts which were presented.

Sorry, but quoting MM doesn't make something more or less "true".

Though if I used the wrong Snopes debunking, then I'm fine with admitting I'm wrong



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join