Ordo Templii Orientis: Who the heck are these guys??

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I don't think that the bombing oh Hiroshima and Nagasaki was good... but I think it was BETTER than needless american lives being taken because of Japan's brutal guerrilla combat tactics.

No doubt; although the Truman administration did inflate the estimate of the number of American lives that would have been lost. However, your point is true, that it did end the conflict pretty quickly, which prevented a lot more casualties on both sides... I guess my point was that none of the actions in war are really "good" - only an insane person would argue such a thing.

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I don't think that the bombing oh Hiroshima and Nagasaki was good... but I think it was BETTER than needless american lives being taken because of Japan's brutal guerrilla combat tactics.

No doubt; although the Truman administration did inflate the estimate of the number of American lives that would have been lost. However, your point is true, that it did end the conflict pretty quickly, which prevented a lot more casualties on both sides... I guess my point was that none of the actions in war are really "good" - only an insane person would argue such a thing.

Exactly. War sucks war is s#!tty nobody likes it but, unfortunately, sometimes, its necessary.

Ahhh, yes... the O.T.O.

My response is one of trepidation, because to be perfectly honest, at the time I encountered them, I was Wiccan, and a member of the PSA in Austin, TX. For more on this group, read the link below.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This whole thing started in late 1994. The Ordo Templis Orientis met on the opposite side of campus. And for every amount the PSA was full of BS, the OTO was probably just as full of it. I need to preface this story by saying that, while this is my personal experience with them, it is only with the Texas Chapters, and Austin in particular. There's also a lot to be said for the power of group stupidity in any sort of magic-using group. Finally, my skills in observing and using energy and dealing with spirits and such were minimal at best, and most of what I observed was told to me.

That said, the members of the OTO did give me the creeps (and coming from the crowd I was allied with, that's saying a lot), and their actions seemed quite negative. They used magic irresponsibly and apparently fueled it with trapped spirits, draining them for the needed power. While this did seem to be, at the time, more efficient, I cannot imagine any good karma coming of it.

At one point supposedly the O.T.O. decided the spirits didn't provide enough energy, or perhaps the wrong kind, and tried their hand on people with surprisingly more success. Since both the PSA and OTO hung out at the same coffee shops (few pagans were to be found in the bars along the Drag), this inevitably led to an attempt to drain one of the PSA members. I'll call her "Amy", for lack of remembering her real name, and I refuse to use craft names, as they all pretty much consist of some derivation of the words "Raven, Wolf, Moon, Silver, and Wind". Can you tell I'm a bit disenchanted? (pun intended)

Anyway, we're enjoying cigs and coffee when Amy suddenly looks behind her angrily and points at some guy in the corner with some friends and shouts "Knock it off!". He just sits there, looking all gothlike in his trenchcoat, combat boots, and fingerless gloves, staring at her between strands of hair. Then, without blinking, he just reaches out towards her a bit, grabs thin air, and...well...pushes. Amy reacts like she's been slapped and by now the surrounding tables have become a captive audience.

They do a typical duel. If you've had any experience with pagans, you know the routine. They overact lobbing invisible balls of stuff at each other, make faces, and do odd things with their eyes. Both groups (sigh...yes, me too...) start to get involved in this duel, and of course no one really wins, but both sides claim a victory. I'd seen (and acted) better in LARP games.

Of COURSE it had to frickin' rain, which only does more to increase the tension as we're leaving, because of course, the only reason it could be thundering and lightning was due to "magical discharge blah blah spirit blah" and at the next PSA meeting Amy regals the whole group of how we were attacked by the OTO and fended them off, and of course other people started chiming in. Everything from headaches to insomnia were blamed on attacks from the OTO. What few people were there that had any talent were convinced as well, and the meeting adjourned with us being "ordered" to travel in groups and be prepared to fight back.

Which led to more duels, which eventually led to physical fights, which eventually led to some actual magic being slung by those few who had learned some minor stuff. This, in turn, spreads beyond the PSA and OTO, and a call to all Wiccans in Austin went out, and pretty soon a whole damned war erupted in the city.

Now I've been pretty cynical up to this point. I'm still learning my own at this time (still am, really, we never stop) and the best I could manage was probably more fooling myself than anything else, but even I was able to feel the stuff in the air at the time. Wierd storms hit. I don't mean wierd as in "a thundercloud blew in from nowhere" (that's really par for the course in Texas). I mean that there'd be fog, hail, sunlight, rain, and tornados all on the same day. In fact, the first tornado in 10 years touched down in Austin's city limits, ripped the roof off of a grocery store I always went to, killed 7 people and injured 30 something. By the time I'd learned enough to "see" some things, it was like suddenly taking a microscope to what looked like an otherwise clean sink... except instead of hideous germs, I saw...well... hideous....stuff? It's like trying to describe what an orage tastes like.

This went on and on and on until eventually I got the hell out of dodge, moved back to DFW, only to find the OTO vs. Wiccans thing was already ensuing in Grand Prairie. Then the fires in Mexico broke out and the air in DFW was so oily and sickening I had to move to Seattle.

By this time, 1998, I was scared s---less. Found the local COG (Circle of Goddess--basically a Quorum of Covens) and warned them of what might be coming. They looked at me like I was crazy. For one, I wasn't wiccan anymore (more of a salad-bar shaman), for another, I was a -man- who dared to speak at their meeting. I don't even think they bothered giving it a second thought, and after I eventually moved back in 2001, it was like the whole thing never happened.

Anyway, I don't know if this helps or not, or if you even believe my tale. Truth be told, I wouldn't believe it either, but that's how it went.


[edit on 6/20/2005 by thelibra]

argh... stupid double-post on my part, please delete....

(edit)

[edit on 6/20/2005 by thelibra]

Originally posted by thelibra
Ahhh, yes... the O.T.O.

My response is one of trepidation, because to be perfectly honest, at the time I encountered them, I was Wiccan, and a member of the PSA in Austin, TX. For more on this group, read the link below.

url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread122433/pg1

This whole thing started in late 1994...... .

Libra- How old are you? This 'scene' you described sounds like a bunch of kids who might be spending their time more wisely at a shrink!

I am not saying your story is not true but I would shy away from equating the behavior of a few people with a whole organization. This talk of draining energy from spirits and all that..........sounds like too much weed smoking to me.

Besides, everyone knows that the so-called 'spirits' are really only refracted portions of one's own self. Keeping reason intact as you explore the inner sanctum of your psyche is good advice. Take it.

Originally posted by HeirX
Libra- How old are you? This 'scene' you described sounds like a bunch of kids who might be spending their time more wisely at a shrink!

Oh I couldn't agree more. Most were as loopy as a hammock.

Originally posted by HeirX
I am not saying your story is not true but I would shy away from equating the behavior of a few people with a whole organization.

And I was certain to disclaimer that at the beginning. This was my own personal experience, along with some others, of one particular chapter. I stated that at the beginning, and stand by it. From what I understand, the OTO have a pretty good rep in some places, and worse rep in others.

Originally posted by HeirX
This talk of draining energy from spirits and all that..........sounds like too much weed smoking to me.

Besides, everyone knows that the so-called 'spirits' are really only refracted portions of one's own self. Keeping reason intact as you explore the inner sanctum of your psyche is good advice. Take it.

Keep in mind, this was over 10 years ago, and I was a late teen. At least I have the good sense to be annoyed with myself for what happened back then. Rest assured I take a much much more realistic view of the supernatural nowadays.

Originally posted by TgSoe

Originally posted by HeirX
Hello all and 93

I am both a Mason and a member of the O.T.O.

If I can help clear up any misunderstandings it would be my pleasure.

I have a couple questions Amigo... I didn't think you could be a Mason in a regular Lodge and be an OTO member seeing as some believe OTO to be clandestine Masonry. There's a part in the 3rd degree that forbids joining a clandestine lodge.

The other one is how closely related to Thelema is Co- Masonry if any. Thanx

93 Amigo-

Seb has already answered your question regarding duel membership in Masonry and the OTO but I'll add my two cents...

I had heard tale of conflicts in this regard and when I had spent a few months with my now Masonic coach I put my apprehension aside and told him that I was an OTO member. To my surprise he seemed pleased! Now, my coach is a church going Christian and a devoted Mason but he practices religious tolerance and sees my involvement in the OTO in that light. My Thelemic background enables me to participate in fruitful discussion that would normally be lost on an Entered Apprentice. The OTO does not attempt to act as some irregular Masonic Organization and in fact is not.

Regarding your second question--->There is NO relation between the OTO and co-masonry.

Be well and 93's

Your Amigo, HeirX.

Originally posted by HeirX

Originally posted by TgSoe

Originally posted by HeirX
Hello all and 93

I am both a Mason and a member of the O.T.O.

If I can help clear up any misunderstandings it would be my pleasure.

I have a couple questions Amigo... I didn't think you could be a Mason in a regular Lodge and be an OTO member seeing as some believe OTO to be clandestine Masonry. There's a part in the 3rd degree that forbids joining a clandestine lodge.

The other one is how closely related to Thelema is Co- Masonry if any. Thanx

93 Amigo-

Seb has already answered your question regarding duel membership in Masonry and the OTO but I'll add my two cents...

I had heard tale of conflicts in this regard and when I had spent a few months with my now Masonic coach I put my apprehension aside and told him that I was an OTO member. To my surprise he seemed pleased! Now, my coach is a church going Christian and a devoted Mason but he practices religious tolerance and sees my involvement in the OTO in that light. My Thelemic background enables me to participate in fruitful discussion that would normally be lost on an Entered Apprentice. The OTO does not attempt to act as some irregular Masonic Organization and in fact is not.

Regarding your second question--->There is NO relation between the OTO and co-masonry.

Be well and 93's

Your Amigo, HeirX.

Thanks Hier X I guess the next question would be why do both? Masonry is a lot of fun its ashame they don't have full time positions available I'd quit my day job to be a full time Mason, LoL

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Freemasonry and the OTO are two separate organizations. As far as I know, OTO doesn't pretend to be masonic in any way and therefore cannot be cosidered a clandestine masonic organization. Just because OTO has copied symbols or rituals or what not doesn't mean anything. Lots of organizations have done that. Just about every fraternity in the world has taken something from Freemasonry. Doesn't mean that we are forbidden from joining them, because they do not try to pass themselves off as being masonic.

Here are some quotes from Hymenaeus Beta the head of the O.T.O. published in the Magical Link Vol IX No. 1 (The Offical O.T.O. newsletter)

Crowley quickly realized that the post-Yarker era meant change. He was not rebellious by reflex, at least where old British institutions were concerned. He undoubtedly believed O.T.O. had authority from Yarker to work the Antient and Primitive Rite's equivalent to the Craft degrees in England, but once made aware of the issue of regularity when having his own French masonic credentials declined,he was not defiant and on his own made changes to the O.T.O. to avoid conflict. He inserted notices into the last number of The Equinox to the effect that the O.T.O.did not infringe upon the just privileges of the Grand Lodge of England.

During WWI Crowley worked slightly revised English Craft rituals in America,but despite the absence of a central Grand Lodge, he met with objections frommasonic authorities. He then rewrote the O.T.O. rituals for I°- III°so that they no longer resembled Craft masonry degrees in language, theme or intent.

The situation with the O.T.O. and masonry today is somewhat different than in Crowley's time, but the spirit of fraternity and respect is the same. We have taken several steps to avoid even the appearance of infringement on masonic privileges. An increasing number of O.T.O. members are masons-many having taken their initiations in masonic lodge with The Book of the Law as the volume of the sacred law. These members feel no conflict with their masonic vows in being members of O.T.O.

The O.T.O. is evolving, and will in time become grow away from its masonic roots,as we have our own unique emphasis and mission. It is however vital that we first educate ourselves thoroughly in our doctrinal origins so that we do not, in our ignorance, change or abandon ideas and values we do not yet understand.-H.B.

I also believe that even if Crowley managed to hook up the "real" Masons he would not of lasted long. His bi-sexuality would of ended up excluding him on moral grounds (remember this was in the early 1900's, nowadays this might not happen).

I don’t see any connection with Co- Masonry.

Originally posted by dh
Pentagrams? I rest my case

You rest your case?? what the hell did you prove? That the O.T.O. are involved in the occult? Well Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I use pentagrams (in both directions) Hexagrams, I stand around in funny clothes, waving wands, knifes, swords while speaking in a strange languages calling on angels, demons, and gods to do my bidding. Nobody ever denied that, so it took no great work on your case to prove that!

Actually, this answers my original question. The O.T.O. is a bunch of witchs, warlocks, Wizards, etc,. etc., who don't want to call their lodge a church or their members a congregation. Too "churchy" I suppose.

*sheesh* Why did it take SIX PAGES to determine that??

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Toelint]

Originally posted by TgSoe

Thanks Hier X I guess the next question would be why do both? Masonry is a lot of fun its ashame they don't have full time positions available I'd quit my day job to be a full time Mason, LoL

93 TG

That's a good question. I've been in the OTO for a long time. Although I still enjoy my relationship with that Order I spend the majority of my time there working with newer members.

As I've gotten older it has just seemed to me that Masonry is the next logical step. I suppose I've been finding more 'peers' within Masonry than I have within the OTO of late. Also, it sure is nice to be a newbie again. LOL.

I'd quit my job to be a full-time Mason too man! In a heartbeat.

93's

Originally posted by sebatwerk


Exactly. War sucks war is s#!tty nobody likes it but, unfortunately, sometimes, its necessary.

Its necessary only in the terms of manipulated and created conflicts - ordo ab chao - manipulated and created by occult government, occult corporations, backed by occult cults - there's nothing acceptable about vapourising people, carcinogeny and teratanogeny, radiation burns and sickness -counted in thousands and repeated in the DU scandals
Nothing whatsoever defensible
Only people blinded and cut off by mind control techniques - whether global or individual - would think there were

Originally posted by Toelint


Actually, this answers my original question. The O.T.O. is a bunch of witchs, warlocks, Wizards, etc,. etc., who don't want to call their lodge a church or their members a congregation. Too "churchy" I suppose.

*sheesh* Why did it take SIX PAGES to determine that??

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Toelint]

Toelint------>The OTO is a bunch of human beings, probably more or less like yourself who are seeking Light.
Regarding your 'churchy' comment.----The Ecclesiastical arm of the OTO is called the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica. Within the confines of the EGC we do use the terms 'church' and 'congregation'. Within the OTO proper though, those terms don't apply and are not appropriate. There is a Lodge and it's membership and there is a church and its congregation. We have the best of both worlds I guess.

Originally posted by dh

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Exactly. War sucks war is s#!tty nobody likes it but, unfortunately, sometimes, its necessary.

Its necessary only in the terms of manipulated and created conflicts - ordo ab chao - manipulated and created by occult government, occult corporations, backed by occult cults - there's nothing acceptable about vapourising people, carcinogeny and teratanogeny, radiation burns and sickness -counted in thousands and repeated in the DU scandals
Nothing whatsoever defensible
Only people blinded and cut off by mind control techniques - whether global or individual - would think there were

Whatever you say man

Seb

I can't U2U yet it seems. U2U me an email address so I can respond.....

heirx

Originally posted by Toelint

Actually, this answers my original question. The O.T.O. is a bunch of witchs, warlocks, Wizards, etc,. etc., who don't want to call their lodge a church or their members a congregation. Too "churchy" I suppose.

*sheesh* Why did it take SIX PAGES to determine that??

You spent the time looking at O.T.O. sites and never made the connection when you read the word Magick? *sheesh*


thelibra, I have to say I really don't think you were dealing with any O.T.O. members. For some reason Wiccans tend to hate Crowley more than Christians do. but it seems to be getting better, Thelemites often have a presence at the big pagan outdoor festivals/camps.

The next comment I have is I have seen similar claims by other Wiccans, but I have never heard anything from the O.T.O. side of such wars (But you do hear of internal O.T.O. "wars" from time to time). Honestly is seems like a case of mass hysteria on the Wiccans part.

In the DFW area the O.T.O. have been having mass at a pagan community center for quite some time... not something you would expect if stuff like that were going on.

Originally posted by HeirX

As I've gotten older it has just seemed to me that Masonry is the next logical step. I suppose I've been finding more 'peers' within Masonry than I have within the OTO of late. Also, it sure is nice to be a newbie again. LOL.

93 HeirX,

While my major “problem” with masonry is the male only thing (please note this is just a personal thing). Another issue I was wondering about is how you personally fit the one God requirement and Thelema together. I’m guessing you just consider the various God’s in the Thelemic pantheon as different aspects or names of one God, but then you have the Liber Oz “There is no god but man” stuff?


93 93/93

[edit on 6/20/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Cug

93 HeirX,

While my major “problem” with masonry is the male only thing (please note this is just a personal thing). Another issue I was wondering about is how you personally fit the one God requirement and Thelema together. I’m guessing you just consider the various God’s in the Thelemic pantheon as different aspects or names of one God, but then you have the Liber Oz “There is no god but man” stuff?


93 93/93

[edit on 6/20/2005 by Cug]

93 Cug-

Big question. A tough question to answer. I'm apprehensive. Have you ever read, THE FAITH OF A HERETIC by Walter Kaufman? It's actually a whole book but here's a short essay by the same guy that may be worth your time faculty.plts.edu...

In short, I believe in a power that is bigger than just my ego. This power is conscious, benevolent and the father of us all. I believe this force permeates all things and that all things are of it. For lack of a better term and in certain company, I can easily call this God. I think the important thing in Masonry is that everyone believe that there is one father of us all and thereby, the brotherhood of man becomes possible. In Thelema, stress is put on the liberation of the individual. Divinity resides, yes, in man. God creates man in his own image and man creates god/s the same way. I just have to get away from this generic term, 'God.' One man's god is like Santa Claus and another's a mushroom cloud. I think we can all agree that we live in place that's bigger than our selves and it's origin can easily be called god. I have reached levels of consciousness where the unity of all things was obvious to me. What is this unity? I call it God.....or at least when I am trying to relate what is impossible to communicate, to others. Everyone has a different perception of 'God.' God is just a word. God resides within. It's really impossible to talk about adequately. In any event, if you believe that deus est homo, than you still believe in god, right?

I hope this small tirade was somewhat intelligible. I hope that I was able to express myself properly and answer your question.

Perhaps we should start a thread on this topic sometime. We can call it, "Is God a Conspiracy Theory?"

93's

Originally posted by HeirX

Originally posted by Toelint


Actually, this answers my original question. The O.T.O. is a bunch of witchs, warlocks, Wizards, etc,. etc., who don't want to call their lodge a church or their members a congregation. Too "churchy" I suppose.

*sheesh* Why did it take SIX PAGES to determine that??

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Toelint]

Toelint------>The OTO is a bunch of human beings, probably more or less like yourself who are seeking Light.
Regarding your 'churchy' comment.----The Ecclesiastical arm of the OTO is called the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica. Within the confines of the EGC we do use the terms 'church' and 'congregation'. Within the OTO proper though, those terms don't apply and are not appropriate. There is a Lodge and it's membership and there is a church and its congregation. We have the best of both worlds I guess.

LOL HeirX, I'm not trying to hang anybody with that statement. You'd be surprised at how many organizations I respect that are, (when you get right down to it) nothing more than "church enough" organizations for those seeking enlightenment...and yet want to sleep in on Suinday!

Quote: "Anyway, we're enjoying cigs and coffee when Amy suddenly looks behind her angrily and points at some guy in the corner with some friends and shouts "Knock it off!". He just sits there, looking all gothlike in his trenchcoat, combat boots, and fingerless gloves, staring at her between strands of hair. Then, without blinking, he just reaches out towards her a bit, grabs thin air, and...well...pushes. Amy reacts like she's been slapped and by now the surrounding tables have become a captive audience."


Sounds like "Psychic Vampirism" to me! I have had my experiences with this as well! Let me just say that it is quite DIS-RESPECTFUL to attempt this on a Person without their Knowledge & Consent (as was attempted on me). I have since developed a SafeGuard/Psychic Sheild against this sort of Attack (Unfortunately out of Necessity)!


P.S. The Greek word "Ecclesia" means "Congregation/Church" - usually applied to Christians. Pagans & Witches can also form Congregations of-course, but it is usually called a "Coven". So "E.G.C" & "O.T.O" & "Lodge" & "Order" can be another Stealthy way of saying "Coven". Usually much more Exclusive than Churches. Usually you have to already have some sort Magickal Ability & Prove yourself before they let you in - unlike most Christian Churches which will just take in anyone off the Street (Sorry if I Ruined anyone's cover).

Also I don't want to Imply that FreeMasons are Witches - Most are in-fact very Orthodox & Conservative - it is just that they can be very picky in who they Select for Entry into their Fraternity - which they have the Right to do of-course!


[edit on 21-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Cug
thelibra, I have to say I really don't think you were dealing with any O.T.O. members.

Honestly, nothing would surprise me at this point. For all I know, they were acting out a school play. Probably, like most of the PSA, the alleged OTO were posers as well, playing at "Majyck" or however the hell these kids spell it nowadays. As I've said, it was over ten years ago, and I was dumb enough to join in on the hysterics.

Originally posted by Cug
For some reason Wiccans tend to hate Crowley more than Christians do.

Ummm... Well, I'm just going to hazard a guess here, but considering hardly anyone even knew what "Wicca" was until less than 15 years ago, and "The War" was over 10 years ago, it might be because of all the crap that went down in Austin and afterward... or maybe it was building up beforehand...

Hard to say, I've washed my hands of the whole mess. I suppose the only reason I even remembered the story was because it's so rare that anyone asks about the OTO, and probably as a warning to neopagans about getting caught up in other people's drama.

Originally posted by Cug
The next comment I have is I have seen similar claims by other Wiccans, but I have never heard anything from the O.T.O. side of such wars (But you do hear of internal O.T.O. "wars" from time to time). Honestly is seems like a case of mass hysteria on the Wiccans part.

I easily could see that happening to any religion, really, but yes, especially to Wiccans.

Can you tell I'm a bit soured on the whole thing? Part of the reason I'm no longer of any one religion anymore is because religions put so much stock in Drama they have no time for God.

Originally posted by Cug
In the DFW area the O.T.O. have been having mass at a pagan community center for quite some time... not something you would expect if stuff like that were going on.

Ummm... This stuff happened over 10 years ago... I don't know if the OTO have been having mass at the PCC for over 10 years, but if they have, good on 'em. However, I doubt any religion would stop its practices because of some kind of holy war. I'd be more inclined to think its practices would increase in fervor.

That and if they let Nazis adopt a street (also happened in Dallas recently), I'm sure a group of pagans can get a community center up and running.

Now I feel it important to state I'm not trying to be argumentative. It's not like I'm a fan of either organization anymore, nor am I certain what was real, what was drama, and what was complete bucketfuls of steaming grunt. However, I do feel it is important enough to note because enough people did believe in this War to merit a pretty big panic, and some bad juju.