Ordo Templii Orientis: Who the heck are these guys??

Wait here a second you guys show me one place where I have said that either of these thing IS Satanism or Luciferianism!!!!!

I believe that I have said just the opposite. I can however understand where people get that misconception better now then I did. It (Hermeticism, of which masonry is partly based on) is in fact a Pagan religion, and most Christians are going to lump that all into devil worship.

I will tell you what I am sick of, which is every mason upon reading the S&L word seeing red, going ape, and trying to call anyone that says it a ranting troll, rather then reading what it is they said…

I was trying to get to the valid point of the relationship between these four things:

1) Hermeticism
2) OTO
3) Law of Thelema
4) Masonry

No ranting or anything else involved.




[edit on 6/18/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by defcon5
Wait here a second you guys show me one place where I have said that either of these thing IS Satanism or Luciferianism!!!!!

I believe that I have said just the opposite. I can however understand where people get that misconception better now then I did. It (Hermeticism, of which masonry is partly based on) is in fact a Pagan religion, and most Christians are going to lump that all into devil worship.

I will tell you what I am sick of, which is every mason upon reading the S&L word seeing red, going ape, and trying to call anyone that says it a ranting troll, rather then reading what it is they said…

I was trying to get to the valid point of the relationship between these four things:

1) Hermeticism
2) OTO
3) Law of Thelema
4) Masonry

No ranting or anything else involved.

[edit on 6/18/2005 by defcon5]

Hermeticism is not a religion but a philosophy. Perhaps there are some Christians that would equate Hermeticism with Satanism. Perhaps there are Christians who would merely find the similarities and note the differences between the two.

If you look deeply enough into Western culture you will find that Christianity, Hermeticism, Thelema, Masonry, and all the rest are interrelated. You can find differences and similarities. There is nothing new under the sun. Christianity borrowed from paganism. Masonry borrowed from Christianity. Thelema borrowed from Christianity and Masonry........ad nauseum forever man.

We are all brothers and sisters. We are all looking for the path to the Light. As my eyes are blue and yours are brown we find different roads that all lead to the same glory.

Personally, I have respect for anyone who has a path regardless of what it is. I try to have compassion but usually I have nothing but disdain for those who don't.

There is a golden thread that runs through all paths and connects them all. Seek balance.

Perhaps I shouldn't be making posts after my night-cap. Oh well.......

OK let me try and clear things up, first some definitions.

Thelema – Thelema is a religion that was started by Aleister Crowley’s reception of the Book of the Law (Liber AL vel Legis) in 1904.

The Book of the Law – The Book of the Law is Thelema’s main holy book there are other books that are considered Holy but the BoL is the main one.

The Law of Thelema – The Law of Thelema is Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. I guess you can describe it as Thelema’s version of the 10 commandments.

Ordo Templii Orientis - Order of Oriental Templars – The O.T.O. is a fraternal group for Thelemites (People who practice Thelema). The O.T.O. could be described as an offshoot of an offshoot of Free Masonry. Thus most Masons do not recognize it as Masonry.

Hermeticism is the study and practice of occult philosophy and/or magick it is not a religion in and of itself.

Qabalah (the normal spelling when it’s related to occult workings) is biased on Jewish mysticism and as used in the occult is a philosophy of how the universe works. It is not a religion in and of itself. (Note the current Hollywood fad of Kabbalah is really something else entirely)

Masonry – I can’t speak to it as all I know about it is what is the masons here have posted. But I suspect they use Hermeticism, Qabalah etc.. like we do. As a tool without any religious overtones. I guess you could say they are like learning the alphabet is to a writer.

OK I hope this helps defcon5, maybe with this information you can ask your questions again?


One more thing in case it becomes an issue. Thelema is very anti-dogma for the most parts. So you might find that HeirX and myself have vastly diffrent views of something or the other. That is normal and accepted in Thelema.

[edit on 6/18/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by Toelint
A visit to BOTH websites left me feeling VERY uneasy. Hey, I'm NOT joking! This is the VERY FIRST TIME reading about a secret society gave me the spooks.

May I ask what it is exactly that made you feel uneasy?

I have been looking into OTO, but admittedly I haven't looked much further than their main website yet. I read the ritual for the Gnostic Mass, and I didn't see anything that really made me uneasy. I have to say that this is the kind of stuff that would make fundamentalist Christians load their britches though.

I am interested just what freaked you out so much?

Just Me74: I wouldn't call them wanna-be's, but from what I have seen and read they do closely resemble Golden Dawn Orders and such.

Why are people so freaked out by occultism? If it's not for you, fine, but is there really any reason to get all bent out of shape?

Actually I was going to start a thread in a similar vein, but I think instead I'll see where this one goes. Hopefully we can keep the trolling down to a dull roar and get some good info exchange going on.

[edit on 6/16/05 by The Axeman]

Well, I'd suggest going through the last link I posted, then click on the Salt Lake City link...then click on the picture link...then look at the "company picnic" style photos they have posted. Why is there a girl draped across a casket with a smile on her face? Why is there ANOTHER photo of a naked man in a casket, holding his girlfriend's hand. (Now, I realize they're not dead, they just LIKE caskets) Is this a death cult or something? I'd really like to know!

[edit on 18-6-2005 by Toelint]

Originally posted by Toelint

Well, I'd suggest going through the last link I posted, then click on the Salt Lake City link...then click on the picture link...then look at the "company picnic" style photos they have posted. Why is there a girl draped across a casket with a smile on her face? Why is there ANOTHER photo of a naked man in a casket, holding his girlfriend's hand. (No they're not dead, they just LIKE caskets) Is this a death cult or something? I'd really like to know!

Toelint,

The photos your looking at are from the Rite of Sol. The Rite of Sol is one of a series of 7 plays by Aleister Crowley’ that make up the work The Rites of Eleusis.

It's no more weird than a guy talking to a skull in Macbeth. Unless you think Shakespeare is a death cult



[edit on 6/18/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
The O.T.O. was Originally a GNOSTIC Order - a sort of High Level FreeMasonry.

Aha! thats what the G in Masonry stands for Gnosticism and it could mean Generation I guess too. Thats what Pikes hero, Eliphas Levi said anyhow.

defcon5 - would it change anything if I told you that *JESUS HIMSELF* was a Gnostic & Qabalistic - Adept & Practitioner?

Quote: "Gnosticism cannot be True Christianity, because a Gnostic Believes that Arcane Knowledge is their Salvation."

defcon5 - What makes you such an Expert on "Christianity" anyway - are you a Priest?

This is a Dangerous trend that "American Christianity" is heading into! The term "Christian" is being Equated with the term "Ignorant" by many these days!

I propose to you that the "Mainstream Christianity" being practiced by many today does not even come close to resembling the Christianity that was Practiced 2000 years ago during Jesus' day!

The Catholic Church has done a Great Job in Suppressing all of this
"Occult Knowledge" with their Finger Pointing & Name Calling & Torture Tactics! They have done a Great Job in *DISTORTING* Authentic Christianity over the last 1500 Years! All of these "Satanic" Accusations sounds like the Pot calling the kettle black to me (as does Child Molestation)!

Truth be told Christianity is nothing but the MELDING of "Judaic" & "Pagan" Beliefs & Practices! It always has been! That is were "Hermetic" & "Gnostic" & "Occult" fit into the picture! People have forgotten what "Christianity" is all about! You cannot Fault Thelema for cutting through the Baloney & getting straight to the Point!

The Point of Thelema is "Deus Est Homo" - Man is a PART of GOD & GOD is a PART of MAN. That there is a Connection there ( "I AM what I AM" after all)! That is what the "MASS" (Gnostic or Orthodox) means as well! We are talking about ALL of Humanity here - so in that case the "Sex Act" is indeed a Valid Metaphor/Symbol!

When you are doing your Soul's TRUE WILL - you ARE doing GOD's WILL! True Will is ABOVE Petty Desires! True Will is your Destiny! "Do what thou wilt" - with your own Life - do not let others Control you. That is my take on it anyhow!

Quote: "Love yourself above all?"

It is not always about being Selfish because “Love is the law, love under will” & "the Law is for ALL". Love comes in both the "Self-ish" & "Self-less" i.e. Compassionate Varieties.


[edit on 18-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 18-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Well, I'd suggest going through the last link I posted, then click on the Salt Lake City link...then click on the picture link...then look at the "company picnic" style photos they have posted. Why is there a girl draped across a casket with a smile on her face? Why is there ANOTHER photo of a naked man in a casket, holding his girlfriend's hand. (Now, I realize they're not dead, they just LIKE caskets) Is this a death cult or something? I'd really like to know!

As the other gentleman mentioned, the photos were from the Rites of Sol. It's important not to jump to conclusions based on a couple of photos without considering the big picture.

The Rite of the Sun used by O.T.O. is based on ancient solar rites, the purpose of which was not to celebrate death, but rather life. The ceremonies consisted of someone playing a solar deity (Osiris, Mithras, etc.), who in turn represented the Sun. He symbolically dies in the sacred rite, which symbolizes the onset of winter, when ancient peoples were in most danger to suffer hunger and cold. It ends with his resurrection, which signifies the advent of spring, and renewal of life in Nature. The O.T.O. celebrating the Rite of Sol is no more indicative of a death cult than Christians celebrating Passion Week.

Hermeticism is named after Hermes thoth or Mercury (same same) depending where in the world you are studying at the time.

The arguments over the difference between hermeticism, OTO, Thelema, Freemasonry and other organizations are to an extent pointless and take away from the truth. But once again the book of the law says it well. The lamb has been sent to fool the elite.

Club and group mentality I do have to love it....not....Yes there can be parallels bought between the oto GD and nazi's oh and freemasonry.... they are all regimes of belief that allow no individuality.
I know GD sensors the lower echelons from things that show a new way.

One mans way is not anothers.

Do what thou Will .. that is do what you will, not do what your fellow peoples are doing. The rituals are obsolete.

Time has changed as the manuscript shows www.rejectz.com...

Oh yeah and plus...all those rituals are great..... sun worship and harvest time and so on..... but only for the northern hemisphere....

[edit on 18-6-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by The Axeman


Really now?

Funny how that article has nothing to do with OTO either, at least from what I can tell...

[edit on 6/17/05 by The Axeman]

Not the link I intended to post though not a million miles from the subject
Rather this
www.guardian.co.uk...

[edit on 18-6-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by dh
Accusations of trolling aimed at ideas you dont agree with are troll in themselves, as are pipsqueak accusations

Actually, no. You are either a bad troll, or a good parrot. You believe the first things you come across on conspiracy websites such as Freemasonrywatch.com and post them here, pretending that they are your own thoughts and ideas, like a good parrot should.

Here is a Guardian editorial comment that applies to you

The lower levels were put in concentration camps by the Third Reich simply so they could not reveal the occult dominance of the regime

OK, whatever you say! How this applies to me, I'm not sure. According to you and your ilk, I am a "high-ranking" mason, am I not? I control the "rank-and-file" masons, and brainwash them into doing my bidding, correct? :bnghd:

Even so, ALL Freemasons were put in concentration camps. There is no such thing as "lower-levels" in Freemasonry. All masons are equal members in the fraternity. There is no supreme hirearchy, rank, authority or suboordination in Freemasonry.

So much for your argument.

I don't do freemasonrywatch so much and I've never posted from there so there
I would however maintain that the knowledge offered by ritual advance, which is presumably moderated by the conduct and potential of the initiate, creates a compartmentalised hierarchy
I've no doubt there are hierarchies within hierarchies and your particular lodge may be immurred in the lower rank of hierarchies, thinking yourselves doing a damn good job for humanity
However, be the ritual ever so lowly, the ritual serves a purpose - the colours, the settings, the words, the actions, the images - these are all aimed at letting certain energies in, while keeping others out
The control is not in the hands of the initiate but rather of those a step or two or more above him
His circle of protection is given and not self-made. The key point - in the hierarchical organisation the person on one level is controlled de facto by the person on the next if ritual is the key to the knowledge and experience of the next - in a free society, the occult would not be occult, there would be no hidden layering. The knowledge of the masons, the OTO, the Catholic church, the Argentum Astra, Alice Bailey or whoever, the Skull and Bones, The Bohemian Grove - these are all descriptions of the real knowledge, of the way things are, of how the universe works, of the projections of our own individual or collevtive mind
The seclusion and the drip-drip out of selected bits of knowledge to acclimatise the herd, while they face their large part sacrifice is the problem faced by those of us in the herd running in the opposite direction

[edit on 18-6-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by dh
I would however maintain that the knowledge offered by ritual advance, which is presumably moderated by the conduct and potential of the initiate, creates a compartmentalised hierarchy

The Scottish Rite's 32 degree are given IN ONE DAY. How does this support the exitence of a hirearchy of masonic degrees?

I've no doubt there are hierarchies within hierarchies and your particular lodge may be immurred in the lower rank of hierarchies, thinking yourselves doing a damn good job for humanity

Every lodge, except a Grand Lodge, is absolutely the same and contains members of all degrees and all masonic organizations, who are all absolutely equal. There are several 33rd degree masons in my lodge, and MANY 32nd degree masons. But we are all 3rd degree Master Masons when we are in the lodge. Doesn't sound like much of a hirearchy to me.

However, be the ritual ever so lowly, the ritual serves a purpose - the colours, the settings, the words, the actions, the images - these are all aimed at letting certain energies in, while keeping others out

Actually they are aimed at creating a particular type of mood and setting in order to create the proper effect for the candidate, as welll as the participants. A proper effect is essential to be able to teach lessons of morality, fidelity and honor, etc.

The control is not in the hands of the initiate but rather of those a step or two or more above him. His circle of protection is given and not self-made.

What does this mean? I don't even understnd what this means, nor how it applies to Freemasonry.

The key point - in the hierarchical organisation the person on one level is controlled de facto by the person on the next if ritual is the key to the knowledge and experience of the next...

Again, I don't understand how you think a person is "controlled" in Freemasonry. You are very misinformed about Freemasonry (either that, or you have a very active imagination!), and would like to help you understand what Freemasonry is really like, instead of these falsities you have been posting.


[edit on 18-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Well said DH. You are correct in saying the rituals are controlled by those above and also when talking about the protection not being self made.

Sebat do you ever question freemasonry? Do you ever wonder inside even a little bit by all these people who point out valid arguements against freemasonry?




[edit on 18-6-2005 by Mayet]

Originally posted by Mayet
Well said DH. You are correct in saying the rituals are controlled by those above and also when talking about the protection not being self made.

[edit on 18-6-2005 by Mayet]

Cheers Mayet - nice to have some confirmation of what seems obvious

Maybe even many of the the higher ranking Masons are cultivated mushrooms (Kept in the dark etc etc)

I doubt if the OTO and Thelema cults have or had any such delusions

While Crowley may have some had connections into the Thule society, his recorded intonations of rite give us an almost exact voice-double of Churchill

We will fight them on the beaches and so on. I-A-O I love thee etc
Information Awareness Office - the All-Seeing Eye illuminating the world in the withdrawn logo

The twin energies are neutral in themselves- just like the twin towers oho - sun and moon, light and dark, yin and yang
Give them voices and conjured persona, you've got a problem
The controlling elite call on these forces to control absolutely and exterminate as necessary
This was the program of the Third Reich and is the program of this Fourth Reich
And maybe the little members of happy little secret cults are happy with their lot
They need to get a grasp of the bigger picture
At the top of their grade they are all child molestors and abusers anyway
They have to have their mind-control freaks to forward the Agenda


[edit on 18-6-2005 by dh]

[edit on 18-6-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by Mayet
once again the book of the law says it well. The lamb has been sent to fool the elite.

There is nothing like that in the Bool of the Law.

Club and group mentality I do have to love it....not....Yes there can be parallels bought between the oto GD and nazi's oh and freemasonry.... they are all regimes of belief that allow no individuality.

This is so wrong it's almost funny. All I can say is hang out with a bunch of Thelemites, nothing but individualty.

Originally posted by dh
Not the link I intended to post though not a million miles from the subject
Rather this
www.guardian.co.uk...

The fact that the Chinese government censors it's people is related to the O.T.O. how???

Originally posted by dh
While Crowley may have some had connections into the Thule society, his recorded intonations of rite give us an almost exact voice-double of Churchill

Exact? Crowley has a very nasally sound Churchill didn't have. listen for yourself www.rawilsonfans.com...





[edit on 6/18/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by Toelint

Well, I'd suggest going through the last link I posted, then click on the Salt Lake City link...then click on the picture link...then look at the "company picnic" style photos they have posted. Why is there a girl draped across a casket with a smile on her face? Why is there ANOTHER photo of a naked man in a casket, holding his girlfriend's hand. (No they're not dead, they just LIKE caskets) Is this a death cult or something? I'd really like to know!

Toelint,

The photos your looking at are from the Rite of Sol. The Rite of Sol is one of a series of 7 plays by Aleister Crowley’ that make up the work The Rites of Eleusis.

It's no more weird than a guy talking to a skull in Macbeth. Unless you think Shakespeare is a death cult

[edit on 6/18/2005 by Cug]

Maybe you better ask me if I've read TOO MUCH Shakespear, before asking me if I think "He and his" is a death cult.

In all honesty, I'd consider it VERY weird, if the guy prancing around on stage used a REAL SKULL for his role in Macbeth.

Okay, for those interested, here's a quote from the AdAstra Lodge website in Denver, CO. concerning what this group believes.

"Thelema

The religion known as Thelema was founded in 1904 by the English poet and mystic Aleister Crowley (1875 - 1947). Those who follow the path of Thelema are called Thelemites. Thelema emphasizes individualism and the uniqueness of each person's Will. As a result, it is very difficult to make blanket statements about its nature or (still more so) the natures of its adherents. Even the label "religion" fits Thelema awkwardly in some contexts — it is in other senses a philosophy and a way of life, while also overlapping with the set of practices and symbols commonly called "Magick"."

Okay, so they DO think they're wizards (witches, warlocks, etc, etc, etc...) and I pretty sure they're NOT a death cult...

[edit on 19-6-2005 by Toelint]

Originally posted by Mayet
Sebat do you ever question freemasonry? Do you ever wonder inside even a little bit by all these people who point out valid arguements against freemasonry?

But the problem is that these are NOT valid arguments. ANYONE who is a mason and who knows the fraternity inside and out knows that these are not valid arguments. There are many things wrong with Freemasonry, but NONE of these issues have ever been brought up on this forum. Instead, all anyone talks about is some mythic organization full of people who are NOTHING like the thousands of masons I have met, and one that does and teaches things that I have NEVER seen nor heard of EVER.

So WHY would I question something that I KNOW is not even remotely likely? ANYTHING is possible, and the conspiracy theorists are EXPERTS at making stuff up that COULD happen, but that doesn't mean that it does. NONE of the accusations against Freemasons have any basis on fact or any kind of evidence thereof. I have NEVER been given a serious reason to take these claims seriously.

Originally posted by dh
Maybe even many of the the higher ranking Masons are cultivated mushrooms (Kept in the dark etc etc)

Even if there was such thing as "high-ranking" masons, which there is not, there are inevitable questions that show this claim does not stand up to scrutiny.

Kept in the dark by WHO? What purpose would this serve?!? What good reason can there be to keep a majority of masons in the dark about anything? What would they be kept in the dark about?

It's an absurd claim that grasps at straws in desparation to try to find SOMETHING wrong with Freemasonry. Can't you accept that maybe Freemasonry really IS just an organization that tries to teach its members excellence through faith, hope and charity? Sure, it suffers the same problems as any other organization. But why must you try to make it something evil or nefarious?!?

Originally posted by Toelint

Okay, for those interested, here's a quote from the AdAstra Lodge website in Denver, CO. concerning what this group believes.

"Thelema

The religion known as Thelema was founded in 1904 by the English poet and mystic Aleister Crowley (1875 - 1947). Those who follow the path of Thelema are called Thelemites. Thelema emphasizes individualism and the uniqueness of each person's Will. As a result, it is very difficult to make blanket statements about its nature or (still more so) the natures of its adherents. Even the label "religion" fits Thelema awkwardly in some contexts — it is in other senses a philosophy and a way of life, while also overlapping with the set of practices and symbols commonly called "Magick"."

Great quote!

Okay, so they DO think they're wizards (witches, warlocks, etc, etc, etc...) and I pretty sure they're NOT a death cult...

Well I have yet to find a Thelemite who uses those terms. The proper term would be simply magician (The k is only used in the word Magick).

I might as well talk about Magick a bit. First thing it shares nothing in common with what most people think. Bewitched, Charmed, Buffy, Lord of the Rings type of magic is pure fiction. For the most part you could say Magick is a form of self-improvement. The ultimate goal of Magick is nothing less than enlightenment, or uniting yourself with the Devine. It is often referred to as Yoga for the western mind. (It should be noted the Thelemites also use Yoga and other eastern philosophies unlike a majority of Magical systems like the Golden Dawn system.)

For a Thelemite any willed action is a Magical action, any unwilled action is not. An example would be this post, I’m imposing my will on this keyboard to type this message so when you read this post the Magical operation was a success. If I still smoked cigarettes I might of fired one up and smoked it without really thinking about it.… that would be an unwilled action and thus not a magical act.

The next major idea about Magick is all results will manifest themselves via natural means. Sorry no fireballs out of the fingertips here. Lets say you did a magical operation for money, the money will arrive via natural means beyond your control, you might get a raise at work, a new job, find a mistake in your checkbook that means you have an extra $40, you may win the lottery (but not likely, that’s not really a “natural” means in my life) or even find some change in the sofa. Unfortunately you might have a loved one die and leave you some money in the will.

That brings up another point. There is no such thing as Black or White Magick. Magick is totally neutral. So to avoid bad outcomes most magick practitioners use some sort of divination before starting any operation, things like the Tarot, bibliomancy, astrology, and so on.

Lot more to it but I’ll stop now, I hope this has helped people understand us a little better.


[edit on 6/19/2005 by Cug]

Yeah I would have to agree that Thelema is more of a Philosophy than a Religion.

Sebatwerk this thread is about the O.T.O - Not Orthodox Freemasonry - you should chill out a little!

dh - you are spewing some serious non-sense in your posts - is your medication running low? I love it when Members of the Fundamentalist Christian CULTS oops... I mean "Churches" calling Free Thinkers who find Value in the PHILOSOPHY of Thelema & get together to discuss it -a "CULT"!

The Book of the Law says that all of your "Churches" & "Governments" are nothing but RESTRICTION! You are treating fellow Citizens like BABIES! I believe that the time will come that when the words "Freedom & Liberty" are mentioned then there better be actual Freedom & Liberty available to people in their lives - if not - well in that case just watch for the Revolution!

The basis of our Philosophy - The most Ideal for the 21st Century that WE WANT & are willing to Fight for is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law."!

Down with Tyrannical "Moralists"!


[edit on 19-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]