Ordo Templii Orientis: Who the heck are these guys??

Cug:

"Show me one non-esoteric Christian who would agree with that.

It's like how we both know that our belief systems are vastly diffrent for each other, but we are still lumped into the same Satanist box by many Christians."

True indeed.

But you're original statement looked like you were trying to separate the Tree of Life from actual Christianity.


I also need to clear up a mistake:

...Moses himself was a Kemetian Priest and the Hebrew religion is nothing more than a modification of the Egyptian Tree of Life.

I forgot to add that there are elements in the Hebrew religion taken from the Chaldean Tree of Life, Brahmanism and a few others as well.






[edit on 13-4-2006 by Tamahu]

The OTO goes back to Mathers, Germer , and others. Crowley received the Book of the Law as the scribe for Aiywass the minister of Hoor-pa kraat. This writing also hailed in the new eon. Thelemites count the year date from the writing of the Law. They do not use the christist calendar. The Book of the Law is for All. The world has moved from the symbolism of the dying god (Osiris) to the eon of Horus i.e. the natural growth of the child. Martyrdom is dead! 93 is short hand for Love is the Law; the traditional greeting of all Thelemites. Crowley eventually became Master of the Lodge (in spite of the fact he also had gotten expelled) but left no clear benefactor when he died. This created a huge splits and law suits over copy rights and linage. That is why you see so many different types of OTO organizations popping up. It is always a good idea to ask for magickal linage before joining any of them. The OTO differs from the A A and other orders in that its magickal energy it produces focuses on establishing the Thelema current, banishing the old christist eon, empowering women as strong warriors, and restoring symbols perverted by the old eon; such as we have for death in the western culture. OTO has nothing to do with Free masonry as their rituals are diseased not having been purged by the profit. You cannot read the Book of the Law like the creationist read the bible and expect to understand any of its meaning. If you are starting out try reading The Mark of the Beast and understanding qabala.

Leaving 93 explained as Love is the Law bothered me all night.
93 Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

93/93 Love is the law, love under will

hmm I'm leafing through L'Encyclopedie Caché, which links it to an organisation based in London sometimes known as The Glove:

(Quote)

The Glove apparently has its origins in the British merchant navy of the eighteenth century, and the London Guild of Clockmakers. It flourished a century later under the influence of the Reverend Dr. Silk, the Original Omnastic preacher, and self-proclaimed Foreword (or "Reckoner") of Baal, the Philistine God associated with London freemasonry.

Through a web of patronage that extended from blind accounts in the City’s oldest banks via deft diversion of Clockmaker Yard accounts, up to senior Whitehall sympathisers, the "Good Doctor" turned The Glove from a small mercantile cult into the controlling influence in the global trade of silks, treacle, machine gears, etc.

I know some of these guys personally and can say that the are a harmless group of new agers who use the usual concentration, visualisation, tantra, yoga mix to enhance their belief that they are something special.

Originally posted by melody666
The OTO goes back to Mathers, Germer , and others.

Mathers was actually never associated with the O.T.O. in any way, nor do O.T.O. claim him as a member. Mathers was, however, Supreme Magus of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, which was the first occult society that Crowley had associated with.

Germer was a member, but by the time he signed up, Crowley's leadership position was pretty much established. The Caliphate branch claims that Germer became O.H.O. upon Crowley's death, but there are some who dispute that claim (which apparently included Germer himself).

OTO has nothing to do with Free masonry as their rituals are diseased not having been purged by the profit.

It's interesting that use the term "purged by the *profit*" whilst speaking of the Caliphate. Freudian slip perhaps?

It is also incorrect to say that O.T.O. "has nothing to do with Freemasonry". This may be true from the angle of fraternal government, as regular Masonry and OTO are two separate organizations. However, O.T.O. bases its entire degree structure, and the degree ceremonies themselves, exclusively on the older Masonic ones, and O.T.O. itself still contains an "Academia Masonica" within its higher degrees.

Also, many O.T.O. leaders are also very active Masons, including the US Deputy Grand Master, Brother Lon Milo Duquette. You would have a difficult time convincing them that Masonic rituals are "diseased".

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by dh
The Christian system, a repetitive outgrowth of other more ancient religions is damned and finished
...
Of course, in this particular aspect of this space/time continuum, the do what thou wilt psychopathy is being used by both the established governments and their hidden backers and sequestered secret societies to screw the most of the goyim, the chattel, the cattle

I think it's time to call the pharmacy and ask for a refill...

I think he's right. do what thou wilt? That seems like a thinly veiled excuse for the application of force, for getting what you want. a thinly veiled "strong make the rules" sort of thing. another take on that idiot, Herbert Spencer, who said "survival of the fittest"

same thing with "love under will." What the heck does that mean? that we are going to subordinate compassion and love to productivity. Is this merely justification for some twisted version of "tough love." I can just see the board of the World Bank or the IMF nodding to themselves, "love under will, love under will," as they put the screws to a developing country.

Originally posted by HeirX

Then there is the idea of Initiatory traps. At every level of advancement there is a trap set in order to ensnare the unworthy. Something we discussed earlier had to do with the sphere of Hod and how that related to the undying quest for intellectual understanding at the expense of action. This is one of the traps in Hod.

I have some questions

What are "initiatory traps?

What "brotherhood" rituals are these "traps" found in.

What does "unworthy" mean and who, specifically, are you referring to when you use the term?



[edit on 17-9-2007 by jimjamjerry]

double posted by mistake. sorry

[edit on 17-9-2007 by jimjamjerry]

Originally posted by jimjamjerry

Originally posted by HeirX

Then there is the idea of Initiatory traps. At every level of advancement there is a trap set in order to ensnare the unworthy. Something we discussed earlier had to do with the sphere of Hod and how that related to the undying quest for intellectual understanding at the expense of action. This is one of the traps in Hod.

I have some questions

What are "initiatory traps?

What "brotherhood" rituals are these "traps" found in.

What does "unworthy" mean and who, specifically, are you referring to when you use the term?
[edit on 17-9-2007 by jimjamjerry]

hmm. well let me try. correct me if I'm wrong here.

In sociology there is a term called "hidden curriculum." the term is used to call attention to the fact that schools (high schools, elementary schools, etc.) teach an overt curriculum (what the principles tells you its about! i.e., reading, writing, and rithmytic) and also a hidden curriculum (what the school "really" teaches). The hidden curriculum in schools is all about listening to authority, learning how to judge others, learning how to operate rank and file, responding to "bells," taking your coffee breaks at the right time, etc. I mean have you ever looked at the timetable of an elementary school. it's exactly like the daily grind of the office secretary.

i think Masonry and the O.T.O and all the other "brotherhoods" also have a hidden curriculum and an overt curriculum. The overt curriculum is usually something warm and fuzzy, so that the brothers will accept the teachings, but the hidden curriculum is not always so warm and fuzzy.

What is the hidden curriculum? Well I think it's all about hierarchy and exclusion. Masons, and others, learn very important lessons about rank authority (and how to listen to it) and are taught, almost right from the start, that's it's ok to "exclude" others from rewards and stuff. It's a lot like what they teach in the churches (things about being "good" and God's chosen and the exclusion of the "bad" people and all that rot), only dressed up in a way that appeals to intellectual sensibilities.

i mean what is this stuff about "traps" to catch the "unworthy" if not a justification for hierarchy, exclusion and special privileges. I assume the "worthy" get some kind of privileged access to knowledge. the "worthy" get let in on the secrets right? the unworthy remain ignorant and outside the temple?

But who judges the worthy? Who decides? are the worthy the ones who "get the answers right?" and if so, who judges what's a right answer and a wrong answer? Is it the Mason's head boss man? or does authority come from "higher up?"

inquiring minds want to know!

Here's an interesting passage from a document entitled "AN ACCOUNT OF A.'. A.'." which was an article that appeared in Crowley's Equinox magazine I think describing the function of the A [funny symbol] A [funny symbol]

and I quote

IT is necessary, my dear brothers, to give you a clear idea of the interior
Order; of that illuminated community which is scattered throughout the
world, but which is governed by one truth and united in one spirit.

This community possesses a School, in which all who thirst for
knowledge are instructed by the Spirit of Wisdom itself; and all the
mysteries of nature are preserved in this school for the children of light.
Perfect knowledge of nature and of humanity is taught in this school. It
is from her that all truths penetrate into the world; she is the school of
all who search for wisdom, and it is in this community alone that truth and
the explanation of all mystery are to be found. It is the most hidden of
communities, yet it contains members from many circles; nor is there any
Centre of Thought whose activity is not due to the presence of one of
ourselves. From all time there has been an exterior school based on the
interior one, of which it is but the outer expression. From all time,
therefore, there has been a hidden assembly, a society of the Elect, of
those who sought for and had capacity for light, and this interior
society was the Axle of the R.O.T.A. All that any external order possesses
in symbol, ceremony, or rite is the letter expressive outwardly of that
spirit of truth which dwelleth in the interior Sanctuary. Nor is the
contradiction of the exterior any bar to the harmony of the interior.

Which to me is the description of a super secret order for the "really, really, really very special" people (the "elect" as they say above). According to this introduction, this order (the AA) exists "inside" or within the "outer" secret order, and controls the rites, rituals, ceremonies, and laws of all the others.

i know this describes just one order, but it's interesting how it suggests a "hierarchy" of orders, and exclusive inner circle, and like, ya.

which brings me back to my point about the O.T.O. and organizations like that having a hidden curriculum about hierarchy, exclusion, and bald face justification for priveledge.

or am I totally missing "the boat" on this one.

do what thou wilt? That seems like a thinly veiled excuse for the application of force, for getting what you want.

"JJJ" - perhaps you missed this from an earlier post of mine - so I will just Re-Post it:

"Just because I am following my "TRUE WILL" doesn't mean that I just Disregard REASON & going to off on a "Psychopathic Killing Spree" just because I feel like doing it! A Real Thelemite would never do this – it is a sign of Weakness to use the Law of Thelema to try & justify every Petty Desire! We are talking more on the level of Destiny here instead!"


Hiya Masonic Light! Lon Milo DuQuette just put out a book called "The Key to Solomon's Key". He supposedly reveals what the "Secret" was that gave the Knights Templar so much Power so suddenly. I have not read it - yet - have you? What do you think?


[edit on 17-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by melody666
If you are starting out try reading The Mark of the Beast and understanding qabala.

Which books are you talking about friend? An internet search pulls up tons of stuff on those topics.

Originally posted by jimjamjerry


I think he's right. do what thou wilt? That seems like a thinly veiled excuse for the application of force, for getting what you want. a thinly veiled "strong make the rules" sort of thing. another take on that idiot, Herbert Spencer, who said "survival of the fittest"

same thing with "love under will." What the heck does that mean?

First, let me clarify my own position. I have studied Crowley in depth for many years. While I admire much of his work and writings, I do not agree with everything he ever said, and certainly do not condone much of his personal lifestyle. I am not a "Thelemite" in the classical Crowleyan sense, but I do believe that Crowley has a few important things to say.

"Do what thou wilt" does indeed mean "getting what you want", but perhaps not in the sense that you were thinking about. The primary theory behind Crowley's system (as well as other Western Hermetic systems) is that reality is based upon an underlying layer of divinity called "Will". Both Schopenhauer and Nietzsche elaborated on this in detail, but it was Crowley who really brought it to the forefront.

The idea is hat Will is manifested through humanity. Therefore, each person has his/her own personal, individual Will, which is a spark of the Divine. Fulfilling that Will is therefore the purpose of existence. It's why we're here. Thus Crowley (or Aiwass) says "There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt".

The problem is that, over the course of development, the ego develops a pseudo-will, which is often antagonistic to the Divine Higher Will. It therefore becomes necessary to silence the false will and open oneself to the True Will, which in Crowley's system, is done by magical and yogic practices. The first point, of course, is discovering what the True Will actually is. As Crowley himself correctly pointed out, if we do not know what our True Will is, we may be devoting our very best efforts to destroying ourselves.

Once we discover the Will, all we have to do is follow it. If we do truly follow it, we find that the path is easy and we become one with it. But if we do not follow it and choose another path, then we are met with obstructions at every turn, and that path will eventually destroy us.

If we do our Will, then every act becomes an act of Love because we are participating in a divine and universal harmony. Thus "Love is the law, love under will".

Therefore, to use an example, one who is fitted by Nature to be a physician will be unhappy if he becomes an attorney, and vice versa. If we eat red meat when Nature has appointed us to be vegetarians, we will become sick and die.

Originally posted by jimjamjerry



Which to me is the description of a super secret order for the "really, really, really very special" people (the "elect" as they say above). According to this introduction, this order (the AA) exists "inside" or within the "outer" secret order, and controls the rites, rituals, ceremonies, and laws of all the others.

J.F.C. Fuller once commented that the A.'.A.'. never existed anywhere except in Crowley's imagination. To a large extent, this comment is a true one.

When the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn went into a schism, a lot of the members founded their own "continuations" of it. Case founded Builders of the Adytim, Dion Fortune founded Society of the Inner Light, and Crowley, at least theoretically, founded A.'.A.'.

However, A.'.A.'. never actually existed as an organization, per se. Unlike the others, A.'.A.'. was meant to be individual-oriented instead of group-oriented. It required one-on-one training from teacher to student, and no groups. This lack of group structure insured that A.'.A.'. as an organization would not survive.

So what we have today are various A.'.A.'. "lineages". For example, one of Crowley's students may have taken on a couple of students, and they took on a couple, etc. A different student of Crowley's may have done the same, so you have two different lineages. In fact, this happened many times (which is why there are today so many websites out there, all for different "A.'.A.'." 's. Technically, there is no "one true A.'.A.'." because they all, at least theoretically, can trace their lineage back to Crowley in some way.

Originally posted by jimjamjerry



i think Masonry and the O.T.O and all the other "brotherhoods" also have a hidden curriculum and an overt curriculum. The overt curriculum is usually something warm and fuzzy, so that the brothers will accept the teachings, but the hidden curriculum is not always so warm and fuzzy.

Actually, I sort of agree with you here.

I assume the "worthy" get some kind of privileged access to knowledge. the "worthy" get let in on the secrets right? the unworthy remain ignorant and outside the temple?

But who judges the worthy? Who decides? are the worthy the ones who "get the answers right?" and if so, who judges what's a right answer and a wrong answer? Is it the Mason's head boss man? or does authority come from "higher up?"

Let me try to put this in the form of a scenario to see if it makes sense. Let's say that I join the Masons, and go through the degrees. I find the degrees interesting, but do not really take the time to study or research them afterward. I do, however, make many friends in the Lodge, and begin to participate regularly.

Eventually, I become elected to various leadership positions in the fraternity, make more friends in other Lodges, do a great job in Masonic administration, and finally the day comes when I'm elected Grand Master, the highest official in Masonry.

Now that's just great, but I still really don't have a clue as to what it's all about because I have not the symbolism of the ritual. Therefore, it is extremely possible, and in most cases is probable, that some of the highest Masonic leadership are in this position. They are mostly great guys, but just because they are in high leadership positions does not necessarily mean that they understand the esoteric meanings of Freemasonry.

So I would say, yes, some Masons have much more knowledge than others, but no, it has nothing to do with rank or hierarchy.

You ask who decides who is "worthy" and who is not. The only answer I can give is God and Nature. Nature reveals her mysteries to those whom she deems worthy. So how do we become worthy?

Freemasonry provides a way, but not the only way. It is not necessary to be a Freemason in order to become an Adept. However, the original purpose of Freemasonry was to prepare one to become an Adept, and its system can do exactly that if we listen to her voice.

Freemasonry begins its curriculum by stressing, over and over again, moral values and behavior. Step 1 is to take these teachings learned in the Lodge, and apply them to everyday life *outside* of the Lodge.

Once Masonry has taught her sons the moral sciences in the lower degrees, her teachings become more theoretical and philosophical in the higher degrees. Here, the Candidate is introduced to concepts such as the Kabbalah, Zen contemplation, Sufism, mystical Christianity, Theurgy, and other methods that require deep introspection and self knowledge.

Every one who goes through the degrees gets the same teachings. It now becomes up to us with what we do with them, and in the end, this is what separates the "worthy" from the "unworthy".

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente



Hiya Masonic Light! Lon Milo DuQuette just put out a book called "The Key to Solomon's Key". He supposedly reveals what the "Secret" was that gave the Knights Templar so much Power so suddenly. I have not read it - yet - have you? What do you think?

I haven't read it yet, but John Crowe interviewed him on "Thelema Coast To Coast" about it. I want to take a look at it, it sounds interesting.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

do what thou wilt? That seems like a thinly veiled excuse for the application of force, for getting what you want.

"Just because I am following my "TRUE WILL" doesn't mean that I just Disregard REASON & going to off on a "Psychopathic Killing Spree" just because I feel like doing it! A Real Thelemite would never do this – it is a sign of Weakness to use the Law of Thelema to try & justify every Petty Desire! We are talking more on the level of Destiny here instead!"
[edit on 17-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

I hear what you're saying but for me the passage is a lot like a bible quote. It's open to interpretation. You're interpretation seems all warm and fuzzy, but because the statement is so ambiguous, it could easily be used to justify horrible actions. Hey, i just ripped off 10 billion dollars from a third world country through the IMF. But its for their own good. they needed t. Tough love, and besides, DO WHAT THOU WILT. it would be very hard for an individual to pin down the influence of a statement like that. not only would it depend on individual interpretation, but it would be relatively easy to influence an individuals opinion in a group setting.

the history of religious thought is the history of selfish interpretation of biblical passages to justify self interest. Why would we think Masonry is any different than that. Sure there's good christians, but there's also pedophile priests. Why leave something like that so ambitious and open to interpretation when the weight of history clearly demonstrates the folly of that?

thanks for responding!



[edit on 18-9-2007 by jimjamjerry]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by jimjamjerry
So I would say, yes, some Masons have much more knowledge than others, but no, it has nothing to do with rank or hierarchy.

You ask who decides who is "worthy" and who is not. The only answer I can give is God and Nature. Nature reveals her mysteries to those whom she deems worthy. So how do we become worthy?

Every one who goes through the degrees gets the same teachings. It now becomes up to us with what we do with them, and in the end, this is what separates the "worthy" from the "unworthy".

well when you mean everyone you mean men right? women aren't allowed in lodges? Any particular reason for that?

as for the God decides/nature decides, that's exactly what I'm talking about. you guys all speak like good little christian soldiers about worthiness and election and all that. You really think Gaia thinks of her children in terms of their "worthiness" Or God for that matter. It's the same exact teaching of the Christian church. God the master father planner which "his" divine plan evolving "his" children to some future date where the"worthy" ones will be given some kind of reward. That's the hidden curriculum of masonry, this belief in this cosmic hierarchy of worthiness, chosenness or whatever. yes? now?

you say it's not about hierarchy, but if you label some people as worthy, some as not, some as "chosen" by god (or nature) some as not, some as capable of understanding, some as not, haven't you setup a hierarchy? isn't that the point?

it's like some kind of test right. If you get the right answers, if you do the right things, then you're worthy, right?

Every one who goes through the degrees gets the same teachings. It now becomes up to us with what we do with them, and in the end, this is what separates the "worthy" from the "unworthy".

just like in kindergarten when you get the gold star for thinking exactly what the teacher wants you to think. if you don't, then yer out. right?

what happens if your not worthy? do you get ejected from the lodge? are you denied eternal life? do you burn in hell? i heard a catholic priest say on television once that if god's little children didn't "get it," at some point their soul existence would just be snuffed out. They'd be "returned to source" which, I suppose, is a euphemism for the murder of their soul.

i can see some pretty strong links, based on what you've sad, between masonry and standard christian dogma. is this what masons' believe? is there a "cost" associated with being unworthy?

Hey, i just ripped off 10 billion dollars from a third world country through the IMF. But its for their own good. they needed t. Tough love, and besides, DO WHAT THOU WILT.

Only except NOWHERE in the "Book of the Law" does it say that you are not responsible for your own actions - & that there would not be consequences for you actions. If you ripped off $10 Billion Dollars - who is to say that you would not get caught? The book is merely stating that Ultimately we have Free Will & that this empowers us. We should not let certain situations or people hold us back or keep us down.