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The Future of Handguns

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posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 05:51 PM
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Unless you include guns like the new (ish) FN Five Seven pistol, or you include the H&K PDW in the "handgun" category, we really haven't seen many great advances in the design and more importantly the effectiveness of handguns over the past 90 years.

The US Armys standard issue pistol, the M9 (Beretta 92FS) fires a cartridge developed in 1902, and when loaded with plain FMJ, 9mm really doesn't work that well unless you're using a sub-gun.

People still lament the passing of the .45ACP, and there are even rumors that it may return. But it was dropped from the standard inventory (SEALS aside) because it is more difficult to become proficient with, and offers relatively poor capacity compared with a 9mm.

Handguns are also seriosuly under-powered, regardless of caliber. An old saying says that you should only use your handgun to fight your way to your rifle. In the military, the prohibition against expanding ammunition, a hail back to the Hague Convention, really restricts terminal ballistics. For example, a good 9mm +P JHP is every bit as good as a .45 JHP, but 9mm FMJ is a very poor performer.

So does the handgun have a future in the military, and do we have anything radical in the pipeline, or is it strictly a means for rappers to gain "street cred".




posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:28 PM
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Well if your are hoss enough there is the 10 mil.. I really don't think the 10m is a hard shooter, it's just has a larger grip if the pistol is using double stack mag's.( double stack is the way to go.)

Also the .40 is a very good round and will pack a punch.

The US military just needs to decide on the caliber and stick with it.

Roper

Glock shooter and damn good.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:47 PM
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I realy like the 10m. The round has good penetration and does not have much recoil. It is an easy round to shoot. You lose the high capacity but that is made up with the fact that you will not have to shoot someone 3 times to keep them down as you would with the 9m.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:50 PM
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i want a .50 cal gun. more reliable than the Magnum. light as well as less recoil.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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Not a problem, just check out the new Smith & Wesson .500 hand cannon.

I doubt that 10mm FMJ would offer anything that .40S&W FMJ wouldn't. Penetration on both is fearsome in tissue, with no real armor piercing capability for either.

We need someone radical, and I'm not seeing it.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
Not a problem, just check out the new Smith & Wesson .500 hand cannon.



i dont want a revolver. i meant a handgun. ani other handgun similar to Magnum Eagle?



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 07:27 PM
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I thought this an interesting thread to investigate, only to find it very quickly tailed off into a discussions of the feature/function/benefit of various ammunition types.

I'd hope to read about a potential new generation of hand sidearm... following the evolution from flintlock, to paper cartridge weapon, to repeating weapons to semi-automatics.

What will the cowboys on the Martian colonies be slapping leather with?



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 07:58 PM
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Personally, I don't think Handguns have much of a place in the modern battlefield, it's range is very limited, usually no more than 200 yards, it's power is questionable if it's not bigger than a .40cal.

However I do think the Russians have the best sollution to the 9mm problem...

enter the Yarygin PYa / MP-443 "Grach"



This gun uses an improved 9mm round, the barrels of existing 9mms should be replaced by a barrel that will withstand well beyond the 9mm +P standards.

I personally really like this gun and the way it looks, I believe the US could make a step in the same direction if the Hague convetion wont complain ofcourse...



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 08:50 PM
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Try the Boss .224( think that's right), now there is a handgun round that will go through armor. I can't remember if it is a .40 case or a 10mil. case necked down. Bad wampuss cat!

Maybe it's call .224 boz?

Roper

[edit on 15-6-2005 by Roper]



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:41 PM
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.224 Boz is a British designed pistol round that really doesn't offer much in the way of armor piercing capability it's also a fat little sucker.

As for the Russians making something special out of 9mm, take a look at the .357 Sig, I very much doubt it can match that kind of performance - both use 9mm bullets.

Where are the beam weapons ?



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 10:06 PM
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I’m still pissed the US military changed form the .45APC to the BB gun that is the 9mm peashooter.

Anyways there is some development and research going to metal storm hand guns. A four barrel gun carrying about 7-10 rounds in each barrel depending on the caliber. It offers you rapid fire, reliability, more ammo, and the awesome ability to empty all four barrel’s in less than a second.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
Unless you include guns like the new (ish) FN Five Seven pistol, or you include the H&K PDW in the "handgun" category, we really haven't seen many great advances in the design and more importantly the effectiveness of handguns over the past 90 years.

[...]

The US Armys standard issue pistol, the M9 (Beretta 92FS) fires a cartridge developed in 1902, [...].

[...]


Your first statement is somehow contradictory in itself. You exclude the new promising designs and then ask where the evolution in handguns has gone. Indeed there have been many designs that improved about every aspect of handguns in the last decades. Guns today usually are lighter, carry more ammuntion, more maintenance friendly, more accurate, more capable (i.e. Picatinny rails), they introduced automatic fire, or a cobination of these features. There have also been completely new designs, for example the HK G11PDW gun with caseless ammunition or said FN Five Seven or HK PDW.

The M1911 is a special case as it fulfilled a need back then that is still there nowadays, although I think there are other and newer guns capable of the same and more. However it wouldnt be suitable for, say, a cop, since police officers dont necessarily shoot to kill. And although the specs of the 9mm Luger might be over 100 years old, it doesnt mean that they are still manufactured the same way, as there is a huge load of different 9mm ammunition types, each created to fulfill a special purpose.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Lonestar24]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 01:22 AM
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FN and HK didn't invent the small-caliber, high velocity pistol concept.

The Tokarev TT did it decades ago.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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And the Broomhandle Mauser was doing the high velocity thing long before the Tokarev........


Originally posted by Lonestar24

However it wouldnt be suitable for, say, a cop, since police officers dont necessarily shoot to kill. And although the specs of the 9mm Luger might be over 100 years old, it doesnt mean that they are still manufactured the same way, as there is a huge load of different 9mm ammunition types, each created to fulfill a special purpose.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Lonestar24]


Please tell me you didn't say that police officers don't necessarily shoot to kill. Can you name one police department that teaches officers to "shoot to wound". If a cop draws his or her weapon and discharges it, it is with the express intention of killing you. Statements like that go hand in hand with the ones about the M16 being designed to wound and not kill.

As for 9mm ammunition types (9x19mm in this case), we're talking about military ammunition here, so it's FMJ or nothing, and you can do what you like with the cartridge but you will still be launching a metal non-expanding projectile weighing between 90 and 147 grains at between 950 and 1300fps - and they will all give you near identical terminal ballistics.

The reason I dismissed the FN Five Seven is because it is nothing new or special, it offers bullet resistant vest defeating capability but questionable terminal ballistics with such a tiny round. The H&K PDW is ruled out because it isn't really a pistol, it's a small sub-gun more in the class of the P90, and isn't really a radical step forward anyway.

Anyone know more about this Metalstorm pistol ?



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 12:49 PM
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The Metal Storm hand gun is being looked at by the Law enforcement community as it will guarantee that only its original user can fire the weapon. But the US military is also interested to incorporate this and gun into the Land warrior system.


In fact, the US Army's Massachusetts-based Natick Soldier Centre is reportedly considering the Metal Storm technology for inclusion in arsenal planned under its Future Warrior project,



The VLe technology allows handguns to be equipped with single or multiple barrels with the ability to fire a choice of lethal or less-than-lethal rounds.
"A variety of barrels can be grouped into a 'pod' or cluster of two or more barrels for any number of purposes," explained Arthur Schatz, Metal Storm's senior vice-president for operations, in an e-mail response to a Sunday Observer query.



“Each barrel could independently contain different calibres of bullets or projectiles, as well as a variety of lethal or less-than-lethal projectiles."






Metal Storm Handguns



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 01:16 PM
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And the Broomhandle Mauser was doing the high velocity thing long before the Tokarev........


True enough.
Hell Han Solo was using one long ago in a galaxy far away


[edit on 6/16/05 by xmotex]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 01:17 PM
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Cool, I still prefere a luger, I think it was called so...



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 02:19 PM
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The 7.62x25mm round isn't a high velocity round, it's about 300fps faster than the 9mm, the 5.7mm and 4.6mm round are faster than any pistol round out there, EVER.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by Winchester Ranger T
And the Broomhandle Mauser was doing the high velocity thing long before the Tokarev........


Originally posted by Lonestar24

However it wouldnt be suitable for, say, a cop, since police officers dont necessarily shoot to kill. And although the specs of the 9mm Luger might be over 100 years old, it doesnt mean that they are still manufactured the same way, as there is a huge load of different 9mm ammunition types, each created to fulfill a special purpose.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Lonestar24]


Please tell me you didn't say that police officers don't necessarily shoot to kill. Can you name one police department that teaches officers to "shoot to wound". If a cop draws his or her weapon and discharges it, it is with the express intention of killing you. Statements like that go hand in hand with the ones about the M16 being designed to wound and not kill.

As for 9mm ammunition types (9x19mm in this case), we're talking about military ammunition here, so it's FMJ or nothing, and you can do what you like with the cartridge but you will still be launching a metal non-expanding projectile weighing between 90 and 147 grains at between 950 and 1300fps - and they will all give you near identical terminal ballistics.

The reason I dismissed the FN Five Seven is because it is nothing new or special, it offers bullet resistant vest defeating capability but questionable terminal ballistics with such a tiny round. The H&K PDW is ruled out because it isn't really a pistol, it's a small sub-gun more in the class of the P90, and isn't really a radical step forward anyway.

Anyone know more about this Metalstorm pistol ?


Police officers are trained to shoot the centre of seen body mass in order to stop the threat. That means that the thread against them has ceased, regardless of whether the suspect is dead or alive. NO police are trained to shoot to kill. When the danger towards the police officer is no llonger present because the suspect is down but not dead the police will use other otions to deal with them, no walk in and shot them again to make sure they're dead. My qualifications to make this statement? Police firearms and tactics instructor.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Darth Griff]



posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:56 AM
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Yeah the idea is "shoot to stop" not "shoot to kill."

Police officers are not assasins.




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