SCI/TECH: Microsoft Censoring Words In Chinese Blogs

Originally posted by Astronomer68

Originally posted by koji_K

Second, Microsoft sells a morally questionable product to a morally suspect buyer. Well, it sucks, yes. But, shouldn't we be more outraged at such things as corporate arms sales to equally, if not more, odious regimes?

I find myself in agreement with most of your points, but I need enlightment about the portion above. Can you explain how Microsoft's product is morally questionable?

I simply meant that Microsoft is altering some products and/or providing a service to China that has raised some controversy, as exemplified by this very thread. Some people are questioning if it is apropriate for Microsoft to do what it has done, so, it's morally questionable. I mean, the crux of this issue is a moral one: is it right or wrong for Microsoft to do what it is doing?

-koji K.

[edit on 15-6-2005 by koji_K]

Ok, now I understand your point and agree with it. It isn't their product per se that is questionable, but their business practice in China.

This is only a morality question to people who think that censorship and communism is immoral. Most people living in republican / democratic / capitalist regimes (we live in a republic over here in the U.S., not a democracy, as many believe), believe that their way of operating is morally superior to the communist method of governance.

The complex nature of the CPCC and NPC of China lend difficulty to the understanding of how things exactly work, but basically, whether this is accurate or not, communist China wants Americans to see Chinese censorship as the will of the Chinese people - for example, (and take this just as a general example and not Gospel) in theory, the "People" are censoring the word "democracy" because it disgusts them and they don't wish to be disgusted by such horrible political concepts.

Zip

To add, viewing the situation in this light, it is kind of like a homeowner saying "Don't say the word Socialism in my house. I will not have myself, my wife, or my children subjected to such a word."

At least, in theory.

In reality, not all of the Chinese people agree 100% with their communist government, obviously, and this is partially why censorship is in place - to restrict the freedom of discussion of alternate political viewpoints. It's a complicated subject, to be sure.

It is simple for Americans look at it from an American viewpoint. It is slightly more difficult for Americans to look at it from the viewpoint of a radical Chinese citizen. It is harder than this to look at it from the viewpoint of a typical Chinese citizen. It is most difficult for an American to view this from the perspective of the Chinese communist party members and leaders.

Zip

Whether or not people around the world, including China, like it or not, the fact is that Western culture in the form of TV, films, music, books, etc. is rapidly changing the entire world. Some of what goes on here in the U.S. bothers me--a lot--and I grew up with it. It doesn't really matter though, western countries & peoples might do things a little differently if they could control things that are being exported around the world. They might be a bit more thoughtful and respectful of the rest of humanity, (though that might be wishful thinking on my part), but the fact is we can't control the spread of ideas, values, etc. any more than the Chinese government can. No, for good or ill, these things are spreading fast and all we can do is hold on tight and try to ensure more good than bad goes out. However it all turns out, it's going to be one hell of an exciting ride.

Besides, here in the U.S., we had censorship in this country for a long time.
We have a hangup with SEX and words associated with it. They have a hangup with democracy and the words associated with it. Not the same thing you say--well not to you, if you think that, but perhaps it is to them.

[edit on 15-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

Actually I am a Chinese college student. Most of the young people like me do know the difference between western countries and China. In fact we always watch US films and series (like friends, 24 hours, sex&city) and acquire news from all kinds of none-China medias.

Before we make any decision, we should know that China is now developing faster than any other country. The people's standard of living is increasing everyday. The civil right is also being recognized by more and more people. What can be bettern than that?

China's current most import strategy is to develop economics, which require a peaceful society. So the government is now promoting harmonious society concept. I think the direction is right for the current situaiton of China.

As to the political system, I think we can't say communism is better than capitalism and vice versa. In any country, totalitarianism and centralized control dose work its way. Meanwhile we do have our natural rights. So I believe the future polictical system will evolve into a combination of communism and capitalism.

[edit on 2005/6/16 by usual]

Like I said, I have no real idea how it's all going to turn out. Something will evolve though and it will absolutely not be totalitarianism. Idon't know about all the other western countries, but U.S. culture (or perhaps the lack of it, depending upon your viewpoint) could not survive in such an environment.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

I am from china, so maybe what i say can make some of you have a more deep understanding about what we think on this topic.

"Democracy"---what is meaning of this complex word.
Perhaps,different countries have different understandingd.it's just from different viewpoints. i think it's not wise to think a topic totally from one viewpoint.Is this right?

To add,many people still have misunderstanding of china,including its human rights, business stuff and communism. I indeed hope some of you come to china,travelling,doing business to know china from the inside.

It is just as much a problem that Americans misunderstand communism. For whatever reasons, Americans think that much of the world's citizens are being held captive by oppressive governments and America needs to free them. Americans, especially young Americans, don't appreciate the fact that other countries can look after themselves.

America, 229 years old, has convinced its people that it can solve 3000 year old problems around the globe with a gunshot and a ballot drop.

Zip

Originally posted by Zipdot
It is just as much a problem that Americans misunderstand communism. For whatever reasons, Americans think that much of the world's citizens are being held captive by oppressive governments and America needs to free them. Americans, especially young Americans, don't appreciate the fact that other countries can look after themselves.

America, 229 years old, has convinced its people that it can solve 3000 year old problems around the globe with a gunshot and a ballot drop.

Zip

-------very good,i really appreciate what you said.

Originally posted by Zipdot
China is a communist country. Companies wishing to do business with China can either follow their guidelines, or China will not do business with them. China is a huge market in the world and it is no surprise that everyone wants to do business with them. Nothing new here at all.

Would you have American companies boycott China and its merchandise? Quite simply, We Can't.

Zip

The problem is that us fat, lazy Americans love to buy cheap, poorly made Chinese goods at our favorite Wal Mart stores. If we could just get Wal Mart to buy "MADE IN AMERICA" goods instead of cheap, shoddy, Chinese knockoffs we would be well on our way . Just the other day I was debating with mysef whether I wanted to purchase the seven dollar Chinese shovel, or the 21 dollar American shovel. I finally decided that I did not have enough money for either one and continue to use the shovel that I found on the side of the highway.

Groin, I really like your illustration.

That shovel could buy a meal for a family in both of the beautiful green countries that we speak of. The video news that depicts new violence in China is prime beef for media spin - the violence on one side was funded by the people and the violence on the other side was funded by the people. Who is correct? Neither the land-defenders nor the paid-peasant-aggressors who enjoyed such bloody attacks and defense are guilty of anything more than accepting welfare.

Power to the humans.

Zip

I apologize for not including this in my last post, but I had to think about it for a short while. I am quite opposed to your description of Chinese-made goods as inferior. The reason that Chinese-manufactured and Chinese-supplied goods are so prevelant in America is not because they make a superior product, it is because they offer a competing product. Consider this as a businessman, and not as a racist or anti-racist.

This is no revelation to any American businessman involved in supply chain management. Furthermore, there is little wrong with depending on a foreign product to quench consumer thirst. The problem comes into play when we say,

"Well, we're importing these plastic widgets. They are really shoddy, but they are our best deal."

In reality, no matter what kind of magic is being worked, the Chinese product is undercutting American widgets by being cost-effective. It is not because they are made by better materials. It is not because they are manufactured by (allegedly cheap-labour) 12-year olds. It is because China is a tangible market made up of a complex group of supply chain geniuses.

Supply chain management in America consists of an entirely different breed of animal than that of Asia - China or Japan. We have less middlemen. Why, then is it so cost-effective to buy Chinese and Japanese goods, considering their ancient and on-going culture of middlemen, that American salesman can only dream of emulating?

Sometimes, I feel that "patriotism" is a form of prejudice. "Prejudice" isn't such a horrible word as "racism," but it exists. No country can be openly and exclusively nationalistic and survive in the modern economy AT ALL.

So why pretend?

Why do America's youth feel so opposed to foreign people, investment, goods, and services?

For now, I will conclude this post.

Zip

Before we make any decision, we should know that China is now developing faster than any other country. The people's standard of living is increasing everyday. The civil right is also being recognized by more and more people. What can be bettern than that?

In a word, "Nothing."

Zip

Zip;

Many people in this country (especially blue collar workers) resent the fact that jobs that could go to Americans are instead given to foreigners through purchase contracts--You hear the unions holler about it all the time. They feel that corporations should build plants here in the U.S. and hire Americans--That it is wrong to build plants overseas and hire foreign workers. I'll grant you that we could do this and keep many jobs at home, but we would also have to erect very stiff tariffs on much of what we import just to keep our U.S. made products competitive. Tariffs here would quickly lead to tariffs everywhere and free trade would largely grind to a halt. In a nutshell, American workers earn far more per unit of labor than just about any other worker in the world, hence building a widget in America is going to cost more than building that same exact widget elsewhere--even including the cost to ship it back here. In the case we have before us just now, Chinese managers are no more "supply chain geniuses" than our guys, but they do have cheaper labor rates--far cheaper labor rates and that difference permits building a less expensive product (no matter what the product is). I'de stack our workers and managers up against any other similar group in the world and feel confident our people would compare relatively favorably. Having said that, let me also say there are exceptions. Japan for example, has proven they currently have the best production engineers in the world (if you take all of them as a group).

What does this really mean for America? Well for one thing it means our corporations are going to continue building plants overseas because they can get their products made more cheaply that way and thus be more competitive with similar products from somewhere else. It also means that the U.S. worker is transitioning from a "blue collar" job to a "service oriented" job and getting paid less as they transition. The alternative for most workers is to be without a job if they don't transition. Sure, some of them are going back to school and learning new trades & skills, but not enough of them to maintain their previous high standard of living. Again in a nutshell, it means that wealth is being redistributed around the world and American workers are involuntarily giving up wealth to others and they don't like it.

I perhaps don't have as much sympathy for american workers as I should. I think that greed led to excess demands for more money & benefits and that over time those demands (and settlement contracts to fill them) basically priced the American worker out of the maketplace. Those same cumulative demands/changes led directly to their jobs being exported overseas. I suppose American corporations bear some of the blame as well, but not much. Their whole purpose for existing is to earn income for their stockholders and I can't fault them for doing just that. Sure there have been excesses and mismanagement in some of them, but the business world is pretty ruthless & unforgiving of mistakes and the really bad corporations either went belly up or got bought out by others.

I know I've gone well beyond what I could have said on this subject, but it just hits me emotionally & I get riled up. As unkind as I may seem here to American workers, I'll still back them in a contest of skill & productivity, because I think they are that good.

[edit on 17-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

[edit on 17-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

in the case of Bill Gates / Microsoft / China cooperating on something like this, I think it might have something to do with some of Bill's recent investments and comments in the press.

I remember an article that mentioned mr. Gates exchanging large amounts of US $ for yen, he also was quoted in the article as saying to the journalist who wrote it, "Yep, the ol' dollar, its going down".

Seems more like a "scratch eachother's back" scenario. Remember that the difference between big business and government is pretty much nullified at this point in history.

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