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Can Anyone Prove Any of the Topics in this forum actually Exist?

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posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 10:03 PM
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These quotes are from an article that I thought to be not only very inspiring, but also valid entry for this thread. Please notice that its sources are from well respected scientist in the fields of chemistry, biology, ecology, and a dictionary. There is no mention of anything paranormal. It only addresses the fact that even our scientific laws are not immutable and the fact that questioning our laws and theories are necessary for future discoveries.


As used in science, I think that it is important to realize that, in spite of the differences (see below), these terms share some things in common. Both are based on tested hypotheses; both are supported by a large body of empirical data; both help unify a particular field; both are widely accepted by the vast majority (if not all) scientists within a discipline. Furthermore, both scientific laws and scientific theories could be shown to be wrong at some time if there are data to suggest so.
...
As far as "detractors", the nature of science is to question things, nothing is (or should be) sacrosanct. But, this does not necessarily mean that just because someone questions a law (or theory) that the law/theory in question is wrong. Was Einstein a detractor of Newton when he showed that the Newtonian "Laws" of mechanics did not explain everything (wasn't that why quantum mechanics came into existence)? Just because Newtonian mechanics is "wrong" in some situations, does that mean it is useless? I don't think so!! If certain aspects of evolutionary theory (e.g., natural selection, gradualism) has "detractors" (and I mean among people who are qualified to argue about it -- among biologists), does that mean natural selection (or the idea of biological evolution in general) is wrong? NO!! Scientific knowledge is strengthened by people questioning what is or has been accepted.


science.kennesaw.edu...




posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 10:08 PM
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Questioning is the only method to learn, and nothing should be taken "on faith" or "trust me" now should it? Everything in science has a understandible reason if occurs and if someone presents a more sound opinion, it is probably correct, even if this means giving up your old belief.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 10:28 PM
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Questioning is the only method to learn, and nothing should be taken "on faith" or "trust me" now should it? Everything in science has a understandible reason if occurs and if someone presents a more sound opinion, it is probably correct, even if this means giving up your old belief.


I don't think anyone could have said it better! My point is that we must also learn to question what science believes the physical laws are. If we don't we may never learn anything else. This includes how to cure current incurable diseases, how to make cleaner burning fuels, if and when our universe might die, and even some of the subjects here on ATS.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by Raideur
Questioning is the only method to learn, and nothing should be taken "on faith" or "trust me" now should it?


In essence thats what your doing in some cases. You take the words of scientists all the time.



Everything in science has a understandible reason if occurs


True, paranormal events for example may not be in stark contrast to science. One day this may be true, or it may not.



and if someone presents a more sound opinion, it is probably correct, even if this means giving up your old belief.


To an extent, but a more complex answer is not always the most accurate one.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 04:56 AM
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Originally posted by Raideur
My brain has all it can do to defend the title of Logic!

Somepeople just believe anything....

or rather, they believe what they want to believe, rather than what the evidence points to...


The evidence "points to an ATS points grab"

Parker



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Raideur
Questioning is the only method to learn, and nothing should be taken "on faith" or "trust me" now should it?


Actually, taking someone's word for it, when they say 'trust me', does work!

Both in influencing someone and actually knowing something to be true.

It sounds funny, I know... and you can question all you want, but this often works.






posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:56 AM
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there have been many people documented on the phenomenon of being "electric". everything from being extremely magnetic, to actually being so charged as to have electricity constantly pop around their hands up to 1.5 inches. do a google for "electric people", you should find the guys website on it. psychokinesis, chi, siddhis, hypnosis, ect., all these things have been well documented for thousands of years, not twenty, thousands. its just not something that the mainstream will spend time investing in, other than star wars movies, and anime
. two words, parapsychology journals, been around for a while, but yes, you want proof. dont we all, me not so much, but what is proof. even me looking you directly in the face and seeing that you exist, doesnt one hundred percent prove your existance. you along with everything else could be a figment of my imagination, or not, but how can i prove it. the answer appears to be that you cant prove anything, by terms of being absolute and there being no other answer.

hell, electricity itself is unexplainable, its visible and not visible, its matter and energy. hell, static electricity isnt even the proper term to describe the phenomenon that is actually happening, but yet most people still use the term. people are so ill, i dont think any logical man would create absolutes, and pretend to know what i dont think even god knows. this thread started by a simple man, with a stupid simple question, that probably doesnt even know why his tv can turn on.

anyways, this is a typical thread, that is about as equally as stupid as that bigfoot photo i saw in the cryptozoology section.

proof!, how bout you go prove it yourself



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Scientists have the habit of explaining a subject and its process to me, and then being able to back it up with some unquestionable fact. I wouldn't take the word of any scientist if he could not explain it completely and logically and prove it, because that points to crackpots and lies.

And yea I needed points after finding out that your name title remains the same even after you change your background to black, and they specifically say "dont make them the same color" and did not have enough to change it. My error.

Electricity is real enough, and I would love to see undeniable evidence of such a amazing thing. However, as always, talk is cheap, and so are websites.

The atomic theory, being accepted by virtually everyone and forming the basis of many things from TV's to Microwaves to CD players work on the predicted facts of the theory, and unless someone brings forth a more plausible explanation that could effectively account for such a massive amount of applications, I will "believe" it, even if I cannot see it.

I wont preach that all science is infallable since thats an obvious lie. At the same time I wont assume anything is false, since I havent heard the explanation. However, if it conflicts with basic observations of my world, it better have darn good reasoning behind it with some facts.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 03:59 PM
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there is no such thing as an unquestionable fact. do you understand that even scientist know that they literally cant prove anything, and that nothing is truly an absolute undeniable fact.
its pointless to argue with you, here, try some reading. something you obviously dont do much of.

twm.co.nz...

Dr. Yan Xin on Scientific Qigong Research


Also see: Publications | Laser Raman research | Commemoration



How Does Qi Relate to Science, and What Do Leading Scientists Think about Qi?
Several universities in China have been conducting research on the application of scientific methods in studying qigong. A considerable number of scientists, including some famous ones, have been exploring this subject.
A number of experts and highly accomplished professors have recognized some of these scientific qigong experiments. Preliminary observations and reports on scientific qigong experiments suggest the following conclusions about qi, and are supported by many professors: qi can be observed, measured and quantified by precise instruments; qi has the properties of matter; qi has the properties of energy; qi conveys comprehensive information content, or has the characteristics of information; preliminary results reveal that qi, emitted by the human body to achieve certain effects, is subject to the regulation and influence of human thoughts and is influenced or disturbed by the emotions of the participants of an experiment, as well as the experimental design and environment.

The above five points are summarized from the perspective of scientific research by a number of scientists based on newly discovered phenomena. Further experiments have demonstrated that external qi possesses multiple attributes. For example, I collaborated with professors at Tsinghua University on chemistry experiments. We studied the bromination reaction of n-hexane as affected by long-distance qi emissions using a "double blind method." Typically the bromination reaction only happens the instant a strong ultraviolet light is introduced. This changes the normally dark reddish-brown mixed solution of n-hexane and bromine into a clear solution. However, under conditions of darkness, long distance, and the "double blind method," external qi turned the reddish-brown solution of n-hexane and bromine colorless within fifteen minutes. By measuring the molecular characteristics of the solution, we found that the molecular structure and density of the solution were changed. Moreover, qi could change the color of the upper two-thirds of the solution in a test tube, while leaving the color of the lower one-third unchanged. These results indicate that qi possesses special attributes.

In addition to the attributes mentioned above, qi is also bi-directional and self-controllable. These attributes were confirmed by a number of scientists, based on the results of limited experiments. For example, following an instance of successfully altering the molecular characteristics of water using qi, a number of professors wondered if the results were erroneous. To determine whether the results were false and whether or not the molecular characteristics of water actually were modified, they wanted to see the altered water be reverted to the pre-qi emission state, that is, to see the original molecular characteristics of water restored through the use of qi. Follow-up observations and measurements were carried out on qi-treated water every half hour. Within several hours, the laser Raman spectrum of qi-treated water with altered molecular characteristics gradually reverted to a spectrum of the original molecular characteristics of water.

After this experiment, the professors realized that qi possesses the characteristic of reversibility. This reversibility differs from the ordinary decay of energy, and from the half-life of medicines or radioactive nuclei. Specifically, the effects of qi can be reverted according to the qi-emitter's wish. However, subsequent experiments also found that the spectrum changes induced by qi can be permanent. Incredibly, in other experiments, the effects of qi were reduced, reverted (no effect), then reversed (opposite effect). From these experiments, many professors realized that qi has amazing characteristics and possesses multiple attributes.

To summarize, based on a series of qigong experiments I have conducted over the last ten years in collaboration with many leading universities and scientific institutions in China (including, but not limited to, Tsinghua University, Beijing University, Zhongshan University, and within the Academia Sinica, the Institute of High Energy Physics, the Institute of Biology, the Institute of Electrical Engineering, and the Institute of Microbiology), we have preliminarily discovered that the qi of qigong has properties of matter, energy, and information. Moreover, qi can be influenced, disturbed, or controlled by the thoughts of a qi-emitter or people nearby. At the same time, according to different purposes of the experiments, qi can also display different attributes, such as being bi-directional, distance-transcending, self-controllable, reversible, and targeting. Some experiments involving chain reactions have also been successfully completed.

The scientific papers on these qigong experiments have been rigorously reviewed by highly accomplished academics, including Professor Qian Xuesen (Tsien Hsue-sen), former Chairman and current Honorary Chairman of Chinese National Association of Scientists, Ph.D., California Institute of Technology, formerly Goddard Professor, Jet Propulsion Laboratory, California Institute of Technology; Professor Zhao Zhongyao, an eminent expert on nuclear physics in China, member, Academia Sinica, an early academic advisor to Dr. C.N. Yang who later won a Nobel Price in physics (being a member of Academia Sinica is roughly equivalent to being a fellow of the U.S. National Academy of Sciences); Professor Bei Shizhang, biophysics expert, world renowned biophysics teacher, member, Academia Sinica; Professor Feng Xinfang, microbiologist, member, Academia Sinica; and Professor Hu Haichang, thermophysicist, member, Academia Sinica. After they became aware of, participated in, or reviewed the scientific papers on the qigong experiments I conducted in collaboration with a number of experts and professors from prestigious Chinese universities, such as Tsinghua University and Beijing University, they all acknowledged that qigong is highly scientific in nature.

Professor Qian Xuesen has unequivocally advocated the creation of human body science. At the same time, he predicted that the integration of Traditional Chinese Medicine, qigong, special human body functions, and a unified theoretical and scientific work will result in a great leap forward in modern medicine. Furthermore, he suggested that this event will revolutionize modern science as a whole, and that a second cultural renaissance will arise and come to fruition in China. A number of scientists, represented by Professor Qian Xuesen, including the top leader of Chinese qigong affairs for past ten years, the late General Zhang Zhenhuan (a retired general formerly in charge of the Commission on Science and Industry for National Defense and the first president of Chinese Research Society on Qigong Science), have continuously supported scientific research on qigong and consistently acknowledged the results set forth in various scientific qigong papers.

The incredible upsurge in popularity of qigong since 1985 is in part due to the successful scientific qigong experiments. As a result, more and more educated individuals, professionals, intellectuals, professors from various fields, and people from different religious communities have become interested in qigong. Since I arrived in the United States, I have met many people, including Professor Hsian-Min Wu, a fellow of the US National Academy of Engineering, and Professor Carl Woese, a fellow of the US National Academy of Sciences. After becoming aware of Chinese scientific qigong experiments and a number of preliminary research papers, they have concluded that the qi of qigong is scientific in nature, has the properties of matter, and that Traditional Chinese Qigong is an ancient and modern scientific discipline waiting to be explored.

Measurement of Qi through Scientific Methods
As mentioned earlier, preliminary understanding of qi by many scientists is based on current scientific experiments. However, the current scientific qigong experiments are very limited in scope -- many areas have not been studied. And the areas studied have merely focused on ordinarily measurable phenomena. In fact, there are possibly many more, deeper and even more perplexing phenomena yet to be investigated. As for monitoring and measuring qi, I think that modern scientific methods do have limitations. In other words, the whole modern scientific paradigm, including its theories, technologies, and precision instruments is very restricting.

A number of qigong phenomena and functional potentials, as recorded in historical qigong records and displayed by modern qigong practitioners, dwarf the results of current qigong experiments, demonstrating that the completed qigong experiments are very narrow in scope. There is much qigong content currently beyond scientific measurement. The already-performed experiments cannot monitor or measure many of the intermediate processes. Presently, we can only partially explain some aspects of qi through experimental results. For instance, there is still a lack of scientific means to investigate and determine how qi changes the molecular structures of substances and to determine the intermediate processes for the changes in the decay rate of a radioactive nucleus. Strictly speaking, qigong research should involve a much greater effort from the entire society. Currently, the essential qualities of qigong and qi are difficult to study in a detailed, qualitative, and quantitative manner.

So far we have limited our discussion to measurable qigong phenomena obtained from previously conducted experiments. However, as far as the microscopic phenomena within the whole qigong-related macroscopic phenomena are concerned, the unobserved is much greater than the observed. Many characteristics of qi and qigong cannot be comprehensively expressed in terms of current experimental phenomena. There is a need to further adapt contemporary sciences to this effect.

Just as some scientists believe modern-day qigong needs science to unearth, excavate, and renew itself, or to make a great, self-resurrecting leap forward; science also needs qigong's techniques, achievements, and elements to advance itself. In other words, qigong needs science to resurrect itself, and through the process of resurrection and renewal, qigong will enable science to make a great leap forward.

Perhaps at some point in the future qigong will actually promote the advancement of science through joint efforts by numerous qigong enthusiasts in the scientific community. At that time, we will be able to discern ways to detect qi and clarify the essential qualities of qi in qigong -- its mechanisms, principles, and systematic paradigm. Currently, due to the difficulty in monitoring and investigating qi phenomena, qi-related research is still superficial and limited in scope. At best we can measure only a tiny fraction, or an extremely small portion of the qi phenomena.The major portion of the qi phenomena remains to be investigated.

Qi and Four Fundamental Forces -- Gravitational, Electromagnetic, Strong, and Weak Interaction Forces
From a qigong perspective, all things in the universe, whether living or non-living, possess qi. Many things are formed under the influence, or transmuting processes, of qi. Thus, qi is interrelated with various sciences, technologies, and highly technical knowledge. Science is familiar with three or four traditional forces; the energy of qi and qigong are related to these types of energy.

From another point of view, the energy of qi likely encompasses the four natural forces, which are defined by the concepts of modern physics. However, the energy of qi probably extends beyond our current understanding of natural forces. Thoughts and imagery created during qigong practice should also be considered as essentially energetic in nature. This concept is not merely my personal analysis, it is also the conclusion of many other professors and experts. The energetic aspects of qi not only deal with or encompass the three or four natural forces recognized by modern science, they are also associated with a different and more special energy, or even multiple energies within the various phenomena (including unrecognized and unexplained phenomena) in the whole universe.

Consider a simple experiment on qigong potential. In this experiment people used their qi to shake pills out of a sealed bottle. However, the intermediate process was undetectable by any available means. The pills passed through the bottle (analogous to conducted experiments in which a person passes through a solid wall), even though the bottle is completely sealed and intact, without any possibility of tampering. There was no way to detect any trace of the phenomenon of energy change. How did the pills pass through the bottle? Since these kinds of phenomena exist, the result and conclusion of the experiment is evidenced, but we cannot determine the intermediate processes. This demonstrates the probable existence of a form of energy associated with qi which transcends the three or four fundamental forces.

As another example, people have observed that all things on earth are influenced by gravitational force; however, "qinggong," the qigong potential of being weightless exists. Has the gravitational force been suspended?

The energetic nature of qi probably covers much more than the meaning of these three or four natural forces, more than our current understanding of "energy" or "power." This subject demands further investigation.

Physics teaches us that the speed of light is the fastest velocity at which one may transmit material, energy, and information. Are there any material phenomena that can travel faster than the speed of light? From a qigong perspective, it seems very possible. But what kind of energy can make such a speed possible? This is difficult to assess. At the moment, modern scientific means still cannot discover or practically measure such an energy form. It is likely that the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light, but how can this be measured? How can this phenomenon be captured?

In conclusion, many phenomena concerning qigong experiments still cannot be measured or monitored. Many of the measurable phenomena cannot be explained. Questions on the nature of qigong energy demand further investigation.

Scientific Qigong Experiments to Benefit Humankind
Scientific qigong research may require a combined effort from all of society. Many scientists may have recommendations for further study. My personal opinion is as follows: Qigong science should take into account all of the systematic theories and scientific characteristics of modern science, including the entire methodology and model theories of modern science, and rigorous and precise design considerations such as "double blind methods" for scientific experiments. However, qigong science also should strictly observe and take into account the qigong tradition, qigong characteristics, and the three wonders of qigong; subtle wonder, mysterious wonder, and incredible wonder. In other words, those who are engaging in scientific qigong research (including people with qigong training and those who engage in monitoring and measuring qigong effects from a purely scientific angle -- scientists, commentators, promoters, and others) should consider both the characteristics of modern science and qigong. Neither can be neglected nor ignored. Without a combined approach, scientific research on qigong experiments will not occur at a deep level, and scientific phenomena will not be recognized.

For modern scientific qigong research to better serve the entire human society, it needs to stress the study of basic theories, as well as the study of applications and development. Qigong, under the correct guidance of modern scientific theories, with sound experimental designs, and through the combined effort of scientific researchers, will probably achieve a breakthrough on fundamental qigong theories, thereby bringing about an advancement in science.

Consider some of my qigong experiments. Qigong experiments influencing the molecular properties of DNA and RNA, and changing molecular structures have been successfully conducted in China. Although there are partial explanations, these have not been integrated with systematic theories of modern science in designing new experiments. No basic theories have been systematically formed. However, these preliminary experimental results can be utilized to expand scientific research projects, to broaden our view as much as possible, and to make a great leap forward in the field of applied qigong science.

Some scientists consider that if DNA and RNA molecular properties can be influenced, then it is possible to optimize the quality of certain species in the biological sphere. Even though the basic and systematic theories have not been established, scientific applications have moved one step forward. After the DNA and RNA experiments, I collaborated with the Tsinghua University Qigong Science Research Group, as well as some pharmaceutical companies in Beijing, northeastern China, and northern China (these companies being among the largest in Asia) in conducting practical application research which has led to improved production of antibiotics. This industrial production experiment was entitled "The Application of Qigong Treatment for Industrial Production." This research applied the same methods and techniques of my experiments in collaboration with Tsinghua University and other institutions on influencing DNA and RNA molecular properties. They used these methods to process and treat various strands of antibiotic bacteria, and successfully optimized many aspects of the properties of the bacteria.

On April 21, 1990, Tsinghua University, the Institute of Microbiology of Academia Sinica, and the Northern China Pharmaceutical Factory hosted a state-level certification conference in the Conference Hall of the Summer Palace in Beijing with over forty participating institutions. The conference formally certified the results of the above-mentioned qigong application experiment. Research papers on this experiment have been reported on various occasions. The final formal certification concluded it has been proven, discovered, and demonstrated that the application of qigong treatment for industrial production is a biological technology breakthrough. This conclusion was unanimously recognized in five ways: qigong methods can improve the properties of certain antibiotic bacteria, optimizing the selection process; through the processes of mass production, qigong can save large amounts of raw materials; the production period is shortened by using qigong; the efficacy of the medicines are improved when qigong is utilized; and qigong can increase production yields.

Some pharmaceutical factories had been applying this method of production for one, two, or even up to three years up to the certification conference. During those few years, from the beginning of the mass production until the period of the certification conference, there had been no harmful effects of any kind to humans or the environment attributed to the large-scale mass production by those pharmaceutical companies using qigong application. One of the reports originally read "completely harmless to humans and the environment." I later suggested that such a conclusion was inappropriate because production using qi had only been analyzed over a period of at most three years, and it was insufficient to conclude that it was "completely harmless." This statement was eventually dropped. Although we had not found any harmful effects on humans or the environment, there is no way to guarantee a lack of harmful phenomena in the future.

Due to objective and subjective reasons, experimental research on scientific qigong has not been able to formulate generally acceptable systematic theories. There still is the possibility of a breakthrough in fundamental theories. After progress in this area, there may also be a breakthrough in applied experiments. In applied sciences, people have been utilizing biotechnology to make biotic simulation instruments. These activities are also a part of scientific research. From a number of perspectives, it is apparent that scientific qigong experiments should emphasize research on basic theories and applications, thereby serving society and the entire human race better and faster.

The preliminary qigong experiments conducted so far can, on the level of fundamental theories, make many scientists in the contemporary scientific community shocked, excited, confident, and hopeful. At the same time, qigong can also bring hope to people with medical problems, those who wish to use qigong techniques to adjust their physical condition, as well as those who wish to use qigong methods to develop and promote disciplines such as culture, medicine, and the arts. By emphasizing research on both basic theories and applications we may be able to bring good fortune and happiness to many people.

Qigong research should rely on scientists, particularly those with broad interests. However, there should be a prerequisite condition: these scientists should have a certain level of understanding of qigong and cooperate with qigong practitioners. Both scientists and qigong practitioners should, based on an equal status and a foundation of equality, collectively design, explore, and closely integrate basic theories, application science, and application experiments. Only under these circumstances can we quickly bring about fruitful results.

Current research on qigong phenomena is still difficult. For the International Yan Xin Qigong Association, I have given over twenty four workshops. The Third Workshop had two classes with over three hundred persons combined -- about ninety percent of them were in a Bigu state. (Bigu is a state in which a person maintains a normal life without taking any food. Standard Bigu means very little or no intake of water. Basic Bigu means only drinking water and juice. Non-standard Bigu means ingesting water, juice, and occasionally juicy fruits and vegetable soups). The Eighth Workshop had more than four hundred students, among which only a dozen or so people had eaten food (according to a survey). This was ninety to ninety-five percent short-term Bigu, or Bigu within a given period of time. In Beijing, China, a seventeen year-old high school female student has been in Bigu for over six years, only drinking water.

I use Bigu as an example. Perhaps scientific research should explore the basic theories of the Bigu state and further investigate its applications. If we have a scientific breakthrough, perhaps then it is possible that human beings will make tremendous improvements in quality of life.

Take for example the cellular experiment I have collaborated on with people at the University of California, San Diego. Supposedly, cellular tissues can only survive among blood serum. Without blood serum, there is no environmental condition to provide the cells with oxygen and other nutrients. But, in this experiment, there was no blood serum, only ordinary liquid, and the cells still survived for more than three months during which time the experiment was being conducted. According to some scientists' analytical opinions, this survival phenomenon was impossible -- but the cells lived. That cells can live in an ordinary liquid, such as water, is somewhat similar to our friends in a Bigu state who, for a long time, even years, have been drinking only water or occasionally a little juice -- an amount of which is supposedly insufficient to provide the energy needed for the maintenance of life.

Dr. Raymond Lee of San Diego State University has collaborated with the International Yan Xin Qigong Association on two very strict Bigu experiments, with twenty-four hour a day supervision. The two experiments were one month in duration and very successful. Preliminary experimental conclusions showed that during the supervised period, the average person in Bigu drank merely a half quart of plain water each day. Although people in this Bigu experiment needed to drink a little juice due to blood testing and other interfering factors, the amount of juice converted to energy was far below the energy standard level predicted by the present medical establishment for maintaining a normal life.

Judging from these phenomena and preliminary research data, further scientific qigong research may help us discover the energy of qigong, the energy of the qi of qigong, and the characteristics of this energy. Even if no basic theories are developed, we will still make progress on the applications of qigong.



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(© 1999 International Yan Xin Qigong Association)

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posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by Linux
It's all good
. My problem is that Dark Matter has shaken the foundations of the Big Bang theory. We are missing things but luckily we're smart critters and will fix that.


I couldn't have said it better



The author of this thread has obviously chosen a path and nothing will stray him/her from it.


I am agreeing with this...seing that there seems to be no attempt to understand what is being discussed in this thread. Only an ill attempt to argue the topic.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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I originally started this in order to distill any actual facts from the forum, rather than pulling teeth to get them from other topics. I had a feeling it would turn into the "What is the basis of paranormal and science" but I decided it was worth it if we got someone who could prove something amazing, or just proof anything of the nature.


I still would like to be pleasantly surprised with anything that isnt hearsay or "I heard it from Joe" stories. I didnt come here to debate what "science" is, but simply to discover if these topics have any validity to them, and I have no "made up my mind" already. But you gotta prove it somehow.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by Raideur
But you gotta prove it somehow.


Prove to me that the Planet Pluto exists.....you will just show me some site right? Basically "from Joe" because you yourself have never been there ( Don't feel bad cause no one has :lol
to know that its there. So basically most of your information has not been collected by you but by the scientific community which is just another group of people. So now that information is just based off a large group of people....if they said that you can do these things then would you believe?



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:31 PM
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Pluto is a large rock that a very large amount of people claim to be existant.
They know nothing about it, but have photos that indicate its existance.
I personally would think it to be real, unless someone claim up with a more plausible reason why we see objects in that area of space.

Since no one could possibly know everything science has to offer, we must accept some things, but they MUST be supported whenever questioned. If they cannot, they are not science.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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There's a simple but not easy way to prove that at least one paranormal phenomena exists.

Out of body experiences. I've had seven of them and they were as clear as I am typing on the computer right now, and I was well aware that I was not in my physical body anymore. In fact I saw it lying below me during one of the OOBE's. Once again, as clear as this monitor in front of me right now.

Another thing is to have partnered OOBE's when you have one together with another person. In a double blind test it should be very easy to give the details of the whole trip and compare the recollections of it. The subjects have to be experienced OOBErs and have to be able to get out at will of course though. Under these circumstances definitive proof should be easy to find.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:42 PM
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Well, let me ask one thing. Are you willing to accept PARAnormal evidence of a PARAnormal occurence, or of a PARAnormal creature? Honestly, it's time society to redefine what is and isn't



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:48 PM
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Im just as willing to accept the fact that someone can move objects with their mental power as to believe someone invented a new bulletproof vest that works perfectly.

Both must be backed somehow, and considering just how many times I'v been dissapointed with telekinetics, it would be quite a shock, but proof is proof and Im not about to argue with airtight facts and documentation.



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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Originally posted by Odd
i recommend the film 'What the (bleep) do we know?'. it's a good starting point for those interested in the science of the quantum world, and it is available over the illegal peer-to-peer downloading client of your choice.

[edit on 6/14/2005 by Odd]


That film has been discredited by a number of actual physicists, the most prominent one in the film (the one with his doctorate from Columbia) came out saying they edited his comments to fit what they wanted to portray. His actual stance is much different from the one in the film.



David Albert, a professor at the Columbia University physicsdepartment, has accused the filmmakers of warping his ideas to fita spiritual agenda. "I don't think it's quite right to say I was 'tricked'into appearing," he said in a statement reposted by a critic on"What the Bleep's" Internet forum, "but it is certainly the case thatI was edited in such a way as to completely suppress my actualviews about the matters the movie discusses. I am, indeed,profoundly unsympathetic to attempts at linking quantummechanics with consciousness. Moreover, I explained all that, atgreat length, on camera, to the producers of the film ... Had Iknown that I would have been so radically misrepresented in themovie, I would certainly not have agreed to be filmed."
"I certainly do not subscribe to the 'Ramtha School onEnlightenment,' whatever that is!" he finished. Albert providedSalon with an excerpt from a piece he's writing on the subject, inwhich he says, in part, "I'm unwittingly made to sound as if(maybe) I endorse its thesis."


Additionally, the most quoted/face time in the film is J.Z. Knight, who is channelling "RAMTHA" the Atlantean warrior from about 10,000 years ago. Not only was this film produced and directed by members of "Ramtha's school of enlightenment" but many contend it is nothing short of a cult recruitment film for the school. Knight has also taken legal action against another psychic who claimed to channel Ramtha, and she won on the basis that the character was of her creation and not a real person. How could anyone claim ownership over the rights to talk or deal with a soul of a real person? If this were real, it would be tantamount to slavery of the spiritual world.

I enjoyed the movie when I first viewed it, and it certainly does make you think, BUT I think some more reading is definitely in order before you go off and accept everything it says.

Edited to add quote.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by CaptainJailew]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 04:50 PM
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What happend to you that you want to understand, that has driven you to not believing that it could have happend ?



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by Cameo



Questioning is the only method to learn, and nothing should be taken "on faith" or "trust me" now should it? Everything in science has a understandible reason if occurs and if someone presents a more sound opinion, it is probably correct, even if this means giving up your old belief.


I don't think anyone could have said it better! My point is that we must also learn to question what science believes the physical laws are. If we don't we may never learn anything else. This includes how to cure current incurable diseases, how to make cleaner burning fuels, if and when our universe might die, and even some of the subjects here on ATS.


WOW ... someone who understands me ...



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 05:47 PM
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The people from the "The Mind Dimension" topic are forcing me to defend my situation against far more difficult topics. I recommend the entire arguement, especially MemoryShocks comments. It has gotten into some very scientific, yet tough questions that really form the basis of all the "magic" we believe in, also known as the imagination.



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