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Children In Guantanamo

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posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 05:17 PM

Originally posted by deltaboy
here it is!!

"Abdo I: "'Blowing myself up is the only chance I've got to have sex with 72 virgins in the Garden of Eden,' a 14-and-a-half-year-old Palestinian boy told his Israeli investigators after being caught wearing an 8kg explosives belt.

"They told me that this was the only way, and they promised that my mother would get one hundred shekels if I did this," Husam told his captors. and sex...

Why don't they let these kids grow up, and if they play their cards right they can have all the sex they want, and get a job to earn money, instead of killing themselves ( and others ) " in hopes " of getting it in the after life...


I really don't understand the mindset here...

Heck when I was a kid if I played my cards right, I scored, if I wanted money, I worked...

I didn't have to kill myself or anyone else for it...

posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Seekerof
I suppose that when you read this [quoted below], you did not read on?

posted on Jun, 17 2005 @ 11:54 PM

Some are simply members of Taliban / al quida families - do you incarcerate sons of US criminals @ 14?

Only if they get rifles or strap vests to their chest then yes, they should be incarcerated.

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 12:36 PM

Links are great ain't they?
Still not seeing the mention concerning children and minors as

Yeah, it's right there in the first link in black and white. Maybe you need to brush up on your reading skills

Article 37
States Parties shall ensure that:

(a) No child shall be subjected to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of release shall be imposed for offences committed by persons below eighteen years of age;

(b) No child shall be deprived of his or her liberty unlawfully or arbitrarily. The arrest, detention or imprisonment of a child shall be in conformity with the law and shall be used only as a measure of last resort and for the shortest appropriate period of time;

(c) Every child deprived of liberty shall be treated with humanity and respect for the inherent dignity of the human person and in a manner which takes into account the needs of persons of his or her age. In particular, every child deprived of liberty shall be separated from adults unless it is considered in the child's best interest not to do so and shall have the right to maintain contact with his or her family through correspondence and visits, save in exceptional circumstances;

(d) Every child deprived of his or her liberty shall have the right to prompt access to legal and other appropriate assistance, as well as the right to challenge the legality of the deprivation of his or her liberty before a court or other competent, independent and impartial authority and to a prompt decision on any such action.

Personally, children and minors want to play with the big boys, they get treated like the big boys. No spanking them on the butt and sending them home

Honestly, I can't understand how you can have so little sympathy for a CHILD not even ACCUSED officially of a crime, and languishing in jail for 3 years.

For someone who is so pro-Israel, your views on this are very totalitarian, bordering on, dare I say, Naziism. Illegal detention, anyone?

And before you flame me for calling you a Nazi, realize that you are espousing illegal detention of children abroad INDEFINITELY.

I just hope you realize that Guantanomo Bay is the biggest, most successful recruiting tool that Al Qaeda has. I'm sure Osama is laughing somewhere, you're doing his job for him.



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:00 PM
hey jakomo-


you don't get due process when you're in the middle of a firefight. if these little bastards were armed and fighting against coalition forces, then they shouldn't be in gitmo-- they should be lying in the sand with a bullet between their eyes.

it ain't pretty, but neither is war or, indeed, life. If you're having trouble coming to terms with that then I suggest you have a lie-down before you formulate any more opinions.

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:17 PM
ODD, what war is that again?

War on Terror? How exactly does Iraq fit in with that again, and remember, you aren't allowed to tell lies. It is for the WMD's right.... but there weren't any.. so therefor no reason for being in Iraq, so therefore, by definition the US is an invading enemy.

If there was an illegal invasion of the US, are you saying you'd be OK with the rules of warfare being flouted around without care?

War is hell, and it is generally the breakdown of reason, but simply because of that doesn't mean it is the breakdown of humanity, and if you lose that, there is no reason to even try to stop the blood shed. You are simply no different than those you are fighting.

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:18 PM

Originally posted by CTID56092
You've illegally detained children

They are not illegally detained.

in direct contravention of a UN convention

That convention does not say that children can't be arrested.

you signed and ratified

The US did not ratify that convention.

article 40 in particular seems germane

Article 40
1. States Parties recognize the right of every child alleged as, accused of, or recognized as having infringed the penal law to be treated in a manner consistent with the promotion of the child's sense of dignity and worth, which reinforces the child's respect for the human rights and fundamental freedoms of others and which takes into account the child's age and the desirability of promoting the child's reintegration and the child's assuming a constructive role in society.

2. To this end and having regard to the relevant provisions of international instruments, States Parties shall, in particular, ensure that:

(a) No child shall be alleged as, be accused of, or recognized as having infringed the penal law by reason of acts or omissions that were not prohibited by national or international law at the time they were committed;

(b) Every child alleged as or accused of having infringed the penal law has at least the following guarantees:

(i) To be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law;

(ii) To be informed promptly and directly of the charges against him or her, and, if appropriate, through his or her parents or legal guardians and to have legal or other appropriate assistance in the preparation and presentation of his or her defence;

(iii) To have the matter determined without delay by a competent, independent and impartial authority or judicial body in a fair hearing according to law, in the presence of legal or other appropriate assistance and, unless it is considered not to be in the best interest of the child, in particular, taking into account his or her age or situation, his or her parents or legal guardians;

(iv) Not to be compelled to give testimony or to confess guilt; to examine or have examined adverse witnesses and to obtain the participation and examination of witnesses on his or her behalf under conditions of equality;

(v) If considered to have infringed the penal law, to have this decision and any measures imposed in consequence thereof reviewed by a higher competent, independent and impartial authority or judicial body according to law;

(vi) To have the free assistance of an interpreter if the child cannot understand or speak the language used;

(vii) To have his or her privacy fully respected at all stages of the proceedings. 3. States Parties shall seek to promote the establishment of laws, procedures, authorities and institutions specifically applicable to children alleged as, accused of, or recognized as having infringed the penal law, and, in particular:

(a) The establishment of a minimum age below which children shall be presumed not to have the capacity to infringe the penal law;

(b) Whenever appropriate and desirable, measures for dealing with such children without resorting to judicial proceedings, providing that human rights and legal safeguards are fully respected.

4. A variety of dispositions, such as care, guidance and supervision orders; counselling; probation; foster care; education and vocational training programmes and other alternatives to institutional care shall be available to ensure that children are dealt with in a manner appropriate to their well-being and proportionate both to their circumstances and the offence.

The only thing that gitmoers in general don't get here is presumption of guilt (possibly) along with being quickly informed of all the charges against them. However, it is confirmed that the kids that were detained weren't 'promptly' informed? And haven't all the kids been let go? And, again the US did not ratify this convention and is therefore not bound by it. Indeed, the US should not ratify it, since its absurd. A 17 year old who fires machine guns and plants bombs is not a child and his parents shouldn't have to be contacted in order to prosecture him.

Still not seeing the mention concerning children and minors as combatants

The protocol doesn't make any such distinguishment, apparently, which is why its ludicrous. Children are recruited as soldiers in africa, kids as young as 12 tote machine guns and kill the enemy. They are not children, they are soldiers. Obviously, the US itself will treat 12 year old kids differently than the fully adult men who recruit and lead them. As Gitmo shows, since the kids have all been processed and apparently all let go.

not even ACCUSED officially of a crime, and languishing in jail for 3 years

The people at gitmo are accused officially, they are not detained arbitrarily.

And before you flame me for calling you a Nazi, realize that you are espousing illegal detention of children abroad INDEFINITELY

So what? There is nothing in the convention that forbids that, at all. And the US is not bound by a convention that it hasn't ratified.

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 01:26 PM

The people at gitmo are accused officially, they are not detained arbitrarily.

Ok, I will call you a liar until you come up with a link to prove that lie, liar.

I'll be right here waiting patiently.




posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:09 PM
you're being very childish, jakomo.

can you provide a link that proves children are being held arbitrarily?

and is it really SOP for the military to post detailed arrest records on the internet?

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 02:32 PM
So I get a warning from Ngdyan, who posts an unsubstantiated lie, which I call him out on.

The people at gitmo are accused officially, they are not detained arbitrarily.

So, um, is this still a lie? Is the warning from Ngdyan, who was the Mod who gave me a warning abiout this, a way for Ngydan to dodge the question. Is one who says lies not a liar?

I would appreciate clarification on this. I've always thought that someone who willingly tells a falsehood is a liar, but apparently I cannot speak this out loud for fear of offending the very person who lied.


can you provide a link that proves children are being held arbitrarily?

He said people, not children, and yeah, um, it was in the Amnesty International report that set most of this off, I guess you didn't read it.

"The detention facility at Guantanamo Bay has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the practice of arbitrary and indefinite detention in violation of international law," said Irene Khan, Amnesty's secretary-general.

Definition of arbitrary, too.

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Jakomo]


posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:23 PM
you and i both know that gitmo is nothing like a soviet gulag.

amnesty international is a gaggle of sensationalist chumps. if they're going to compare a detainment center for prisoners of war to a forced labor camp run by a communist dictator, they need a serious readjustment of perspective.

my advice to you is to calm down, find some reliable sources, and stop grasping at straws to make America look bad. all you've proven thus far is that you'll believe anything an anti-American source has to say.

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:36 PM

I can't believe it.. I'm like completely frelling depressed about this.

There are AMERICANS.. sitting around.. talking about the detention and possible torture of childern.. who have not been accused of any crime once so ever.. AND YOU'D THINK WE WERE DEBATING WHO'S GOING TO WIN THE SUPERBOWL!



"Hey we're are war man so therefore anything goes."

Do you remember WHO STARTED THE WAR? Do you not remember that THIS WAS A WAR TO PREVENT SADDAM FROM HAVING WMD? Which NOW DO NOT EXIST... and apparently never did... and now it turns out that they lied to everyone in order to start this war.. and 1000s of childern have died in it and now MORE are being victimised by BOTH sides of this (because that is what happens in a war.. childern get killed.. so when you root for a war to start up to bring some excitement to your dull and useless life remember you are rooting for childern to be blown to bits).

And don't tell me that THEY started the war with 9-11.. since everyone in here KNOWS DAMN WELL that 9-11 itself is looking pretty suspicious at this point too.. and NO CHILDERN were involved in 9-11.

Yeah I remember that video of the kid in Israel who had the big jacket on and was going to suicide bomb himself. I remember that it turned out that it was all a set up too... but obviously it had the desired effect ON YOU.. THE PROPAGANDA WORKED ON YOUR LITTLE WEAK MIND..

.. because now the US and Israel can torture and illegally detain childern.

It almost makes me want to cry.

But instead.. I know I'm going to get my chance to pick a battlefield sooner or later.. and I'm going to fight on the side that didn't detain childern. Hopefully my own countries side. Not yours.

And I swear.. I will do my best to avenge these childern.

Its simple.. when you find kids who have been brainwashed in to fighting a war.. you don't PUT THEM IN PRISON AND CONFIRM EVERYTHING THAT THEY HAD BEEN TOLD ABOUT "THEIR ENEMY".

You say instead "CRAP! THIS IS horrible." and you ship them to a hospital for treatment.

My god what is wrong with you people?

My god how has it come to this?

To the people in here that understand where I'm coming from because you know that the war on terror is BS and you KNOW 9-11 was BS and BEFORE THAT you HAD no REAL problem with US policy (well... maybe a minor one.. its not like there wasn't a lot to be upset about) ... HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THIS CRAP?!



Wow.. I guess that the decimation of the US public school system has had its desired effect.. I can't believe that you guys can actually justify the harming of childern under any circumstances.. and you were probablly the same ones who were calling for the exectution of Jackson (as you christian right wingers go usually).

"Its not okay to hurt childern unless its an american military soldier who felt he had a right to hurt that child."

Any child in a battlefield situation should IMMEDIATELY BE RESUCED AND SENT FOR HELP.. not lying in the sand with a bullet in his head.. I MEAN WHERE ARE THE PARENTS (probablly dead thanks to an american soldiers bullet).

And no one needs to grab at straws to make the US look bad.. they do it to themselves.. and you guys don't help it out one bit.

This makes me so sad.. you have no frelling idea.

Its not so much that this is happening.. that childern are being subjected to this.. its that some yankee morons are supporting it.. it just seems not to matter anymore to any of you.. you all seem to have lost any moral sense and its going to cost you in the end.. someone is going to have to teach you guys a lesson in loss.. and its coming.

It can't happen soon enough as far as I am concerned at this point.

[edit on 20/6/2005 by Vis Mega]


posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 07:51 PM
don't even bother with that indignation crap, vis.

any child on a battlefield should be evacuated? how ought that to be done, if the child will shoot any american that tries to 'evacuate' him or her?

if somebody is shooting at you, you don't stop to ask how old they are before shooting back.

if somebody shoots at you, you don't take their gun and send them to their room with no dinner. you incarcerate them.

i don't see what's so hard about this.

[edit on 6/20/2005 by Odd]

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 08:03 PM
One should question the circumstances that led to the child becoming a soldier in the first place. In many places around the globe, the children make the choice between a possible death on the battlefield or a guaranteed death at the hands of extremists.

If another country goes into an area that uses child soldiers, special tactics might be quite useful. Most of them could probably be rehabilitated, but if you throw them in prison for decades, it will almost guarantee they will not change their behavior.

Prison hardens offenders, it doesn't reform them.

I think arresting and incarcerating minors is a very bad idea, because it generally creates more problems than it solves. There have to be better solutions, war time or not. Perhaps not.

In any case, I think it goes without saying that most people would prefer to clarify the circumstances before pulling the trigger with a kid in the sights. I suppose it's good they're alive...

posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 09:00 PM
ODD, but you managed to take their guns away if they are in prision no? So then instead of setting them up in prison where all you are going to do is make the situation worse, send them to a place to be re-educated and taken away from the place of violence.

Doing what is happening now, only promotes the next generation of terrorists. Why is this hard to see?


posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 10:37 PM
i would be all for an effective rehabilitation program, Passer By; unfortunately, there isn't one in place right now, and i haven't got the werewithal to expedite the creation of such a thing in any way.

the reason i feel so emphatically about this is that the Guantanamo Bay facility is being likened to soviet gulags and nazi concentration camps... and no reasonable person would make a claim like that.

i don't necessarily think that imprisonment is the best solution to the problem at hand. however, i'm only playing with the cards that have been dealt me... and given only the two options, i'd rather see a kid in prison than shooting at an american soldier.

posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 12:05 AM

I think the Germany and Nazi and Hitler references have gone on long enough right? On both sides. As Jon Stewart said, "Hitler worked too damn hard to be that evil. "

I worry about any of those so called prisons, I am not sure what the solution is, but wisking people away surely isn't the best idea. This is an international thing, and what the US is doing is wrong. Not sure how to fix it now that you guys are in there, but doing what is being done is not the answer. It only leads to confusion on who is really the good guys here.

posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 12:33 AM
I'll give you as much indignation as I can possibly muster over this.


If the kid has a gun and is trying to kill you? Well #, WTF are you going to do? BUT DON'T FRELLING RIGHTEOUSLY CHEER ON THE COMBAT! Gimmie a break man, that is just sick.

And yeah there are rehab alternatives for childern of war. There is actually an entire charity devoted to saving childern from this "War Child".. so yeah there are alternatives to killing childern who have been brain washed in to this stupid adult game of war. Why don't you show me how much you care about an alternative to killing kids or imprisoning them and giving WC a $20 donation?

There was a video game charactor actually dedicated to this problem too (if you have NEVER played Metal Gear Solid 2 and you hang out here on this board.. you are making a huge mistake .. take my word for it). I almost cried actually and I felt really stupid about it too... but it really.. ugh.. got me when I was playing it.. thats how they do it.. get you all wrapped up in the action and then hit you emotionally (MGS3 was laughable in this regard sometimes.. but MSG2 is just amazing) with some major revelation. I almost feel like playing it now.

Anyways... what I wanted to say was...

I forget now.. but man.. some of you have a real blood lust you know that?

I'm starting to believe there is no saving this planet.. or the souls of the damned Americans who believe the crap that gets played in their heads all day and night and they start to believe it too (I can't believe that they can't even watch shows like American Dad and get a clue - perhaps the shows are too witty for them - I dunno).

posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 01:14 AM
[edit on 21-6-2005 by rhelt100]

posted on Jun, 21 2005 @ 01:20 AM

Relax my man, most of these people will end up taking a side and will stick to that side no matter what regardless how tenious their position becomes, because no one wants to admitt their were fooled. I am convienced half of the people on Bush's side, would see how evil it was if you could somehow remove that it was Bush or America being involved. Try it. Look through history, maybe there was a time similar. Although finding another place that could somehow find it logical to invade the country that had nothing to do with attacking you... but maybe somewhere in history?

In the end, the US will either stretch themself's too thin, step on the wrong toes, or hopefully, wake up themself's. If not, Karma is a bit......

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