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you know you don't live in a great country when there are talks of a draft...

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posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by Rasputin13
The only people that are talking of a draft is the Liberal fear-mongers who want to scare everyone into voting for them, giving up support for the Republicans, and backing the acts of our Administration in the War on Terror.

It's a sad day for the Democratic party when they must resort to scaring youngsters with the "D" word, and telling retirees and the elderly that Bush is going to take away their Social Security benefits. Of course anyone with an IQ over 85 doesn't believe either one of those things. And the rest are Democratic voters!


You have voted Rasputin13 for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Can't say it any better than Rasputin did.




posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by Boatphone
You are a fool


no name calling please...


Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
There is an element of truth to your assertion, but it really is more complex than that. A draft has been necessary in much more popular wars, although the idea of a popular war might have gone the way of the fixed running board.


see USA lovers???

there IS truth in this...

give this thread a chance...





posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by Passer By
Or as George Carlin says "Just don't show up. When wars have to be waged by the guys that start them wars will stop. As long as they send the poor out there to die, there is no incentive for the powers that be to change.


The problem with Carlin's mentality is that the enemy is having no problem having their people show up. George Carlin is an agent of the enemy and despite his genuine talent, he has mislead the youth of about three generations now.

Regardless of how noble your anti-war philosophy, to the people who are hell-bent on destroying you and your way of life, it's just music to their ears.



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 10:13 PM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
here me out...

you know you don't live in a great country when there are talks of a draft...

i think this because, if we (the USA) need a draft, then this means that nobody wants to fight for their country, so they force people to fight...

it makes sense...

if america is so great, then why isn't there millions in the armed forces fighting for this great land???

why do we need a draft if people love this land???

answer: we don't...




Below is a list of countries with Mandatory Military Service. Please advise which of the countries falls under the "not great" catagory as well...



Countries with mandatory military serviceA number of countries have mandatory military service:

AustriaIn Quick Facts about: Austria
A mountainous republic in central Europe; under the Habsburgs (1278-1918) Austria maintained control of the Holy Roman Empire and was a leader in European politics until the 19th centuryAustria, compulsory military service applies to all male citizens from 18 to 36 years of age (with some exceptions), in which the basic military service must be done. The duration of the basic military service is eight months. This can either be done in one go, or as a service of six months with regular weapon exercises of several days as member of the Miliz until the duration of eight months is reached.

Although women have in principle no military service, they can undertake military service voluntarily.

Military alternative service or civil service is possible in place of the compulsory military service. Its duration is 12 months and can be performed at different organizations.

BulgariaQuick Facts about: Bulgaria
A republic in the eastern part of the Balkan Peninsula in southeastern EuropeBulgaria has a mandatory military service for male citizens from 18 to 30 years of age. Currently (2004) the duration of the service depends on the degree of education. For citizens studying for, or with a bachelor degree or higher the service is 6 months, and for citizens with no higher education it is 9 months. The last 10 years the duration of service rapidly dropped (being 2 years in 1994) and as Bulgaria adopts a professional army the mandatory service is expected to be abandoned or replaced with voluntary service.

China (PRC)The Quick Facts about: Peoples Republic of China
Quick Summary not found for this subjectPeople's Republic of China (technically) has conscription for both men and women. Women who are conscripted go to the army for two months and learn to fire guns. Information updated: as of 2003 with some information not updated since Quick Facts about: 1990s
The decade from 1990 to 19991990s, unofficial source.

CroatiaQuick Facts about: Croatia
A republic in the western Balkans in south-central Europe in the eastern Adriatic coastal area; formerly part of the Habsburg monarchy and Yugoslavia; became independent in 1991Croatian law prescribes military service for male citizens from 18 to 27 years old. The duration of the normal military service is six months (as of 2004) while the conscientious objectors can apply for civil service which lasts for eight months. Conscription is regularly postponed for students until the end of their studies, as long as they apply before they turn 28 years of age.

Over the last decade or so, the duration of military service was halved and the civil service was introduced together with the streamlining of the professional army. Should this trend continue, the mandatory service may eventually be completely replaced with voluntary service.

EritreaQuick Facts about: Eritrea
An African country north of Ethiopia on the Red Sea; achieved independence from Ethiopia in 1993Eritrea has a mandatory military service program for both men and women aged 18 through 40. The term of service is 18 months. There is no alternate service. The Eritrean government is well-known for hunting down and torturing suspected draft evaders.

FinlandAs of 2004, Quick Facts about: Finland
Republic in northern Europe; achieved independence from Russia in 1917Finland has mandatory military service for men of at least six months, depending on the assigned position: those trained as officers serve for twelve months, specialty troops serve for nine or twelve months, and other rank and file serve for six months. Unarmed service is also possible, and lasts 11 months. Women can serve, if they choose. Civilian service of 13 months is available in lieu of military service. Men who opt for neither are sent to open prison where they may work and study for a period of six months. Quick Facts about: Jehovahs Witnesses
Quick Summary not found for this subjectJehovah's Witnesses and citizens from the demilitarized Quick Facts about: Åland
Quick Summary not found for this subjectÅland region do not have to serve. Military service has been mandatory for men through-out independent Finnish history since 1917.

GermanyQuick Facts about: Germany
A republic in central Europe; split into East German and West Germany after World War II and reunited in 1990Germany has a mandatory military service of nine months for men. Women may volunteer and are allowed to perform the same jobs as men. A Quick Facts about: conscientious objector
One who refuses to serve in the armed forces on grounds of conscienceconscientious objector may write a petition requesting permission to do a civilian "substitute service" ("Ersatzdienst"), which is usually accepted, whereupon he is expected to serve 10 months. Overall, however, during the past few years, the number of men being drafted has declined significantly.

Save for a few exceptions, military service is compulsory for all men between the ages of 18 and 23 years. Those who are engaged in educational or vocational training programs prior to their military assessment are allowed to postpone service until they have completed the programs and can be called upon to perform this national duty at any time thereafter.

German law provides several options for conscientious objectors to perform alternative public service instead of a weapons-based military service:

1. The main alternative is the aforementioned "substitute service" ("Ersatzdienst") lasting for 10 months, in which the objector is required to serve in non-combatant, state-run institutions such as the Technical Aid Corps ("Technisches Hilfswerk" or "THW"), Fire Department or other emergency assistance and crisis management agencies. While performing this service, the objector continues to fall within the purview of the German Federal Defense Force ("Deutsche Bundeswehr"). As such, he is termed a "combat" objector, or someone who refuses to handle a weapon, but may be otherwise deployed in times of war, if necessary.

2. The foregoing makes "Ersatzdienst" unacceptable for some conscientious objectors, who are completely opposed to being associated in any way with the military, and wish to be viewed as unavailable to the "Bundeswehr" under any circumstances—even in times of war. For such cases, the law provides "civilian service" ("Zivildienst") as an alternative. Under this arrangement, the objector may find employment with a civilian institution that renders a public service, such as a hospital, rehabilitation center or assisted living facility for the aged. This service must be performed for 12 months. Of course, this arrangement has resulted in several controversial cases, in which the objector was unable to find employment that qualified as "Zivildienst" under the statute, and preferred to accept imprisonment rather that be enrolled in the military's "Ersatzdienst" option. Such a sentence may last for at least three years, though this maximum term is very uncommon.

3. The third alternative permitted by German law is for the objector to become a foreign "development helper" ("Entwicklungshelfer"), which means that the person will be expected to work in a technical capacity in a recognized "developing country" for a period of not less than 18 months. To qualify for this option, the objector would have had to complete formal vocational training or an educational program that grants a recognized qualification in a marketable skill making the objector a useful asset in a developing host country. The objector is responsible for personally making all of the arrangements in order to engage in this alternative service. Many objectors who chose this option, become so engrossed in the developmental needs of such countries, that they stay abroad many years longer than the legal requirement. The disproportionately high percentage of German nationals found in many international aid, conservation, medical and technical assistance organizations active in developing countries may be directly attributable to this trend.

Another provision allows the third son of a family to be completely exonerated from military service, if his older brothers participated. Of course, voluntary enrolment is always possible.

The ongoing political debate over whether the German Federal Defense Force should be converted into a purely volunteer-based, professional army raises questions about the military draft policy. Since the current process selects ever-decreasing numbers of men from each succeeding generation, conflicting views abound regarding the effect of the selection, both in terms of the overall quality of the force and the general fairness of the system.

The final decision will most likely be informed by the enhanced or even reduced roles that such a new "army" would be expected to play in German society in the years to come.

GreeceAs of 2004, Quick Facts about: Greece
A republic in southeastern Europe on the southern part of the Balkan peninsula; known for grapes and olives and olive oilGreece (Hellenic Republic) has a mandatory military service of 12 months for men. However, it is developing a professional army system, and it is widely expected that the mandatory military service will be cut to 6 months by 2008 or even abolished completely. Greek soldiers fire a gun during the first two months of their service. Although women are accepted in the Greek army, they are not obliged to join as men are. Soldiers have some free health insurance and medical support during their army service, including hospitalization costs. They receive a salary of approximately 9 euros per month.

IsraelQuick Facts about: Israel
Jewish republic in southwestern Asia at eastern end of Mediterranean; formerly part of PalestineIsrael has mandatory military service for both men and women who hold Israeli citizenship. There are growing numbers of Quick Facts about: refusenik
Quick Summary not found for this subjectrefuseniks who resist military service, particularly in the Quick Facts about: Occupied Territories
Quick Summary not found for this subjectOccupied Territories and are serving prison terms as a result. Most people serve for a term of 3 years. See also: Quick Facts about: Refusal to serve in the Israeli military
Quick Summary not found for this subjectRefusal to serve in the Israeli military

LebanonQuick Facts about: Lebanon
An Asian republic at east end of MediterraneanLebanon has a mandatory military service of one year for men. Information updated: as of 2004. See Official Information from Lebanese Army.

MalaysiaAs of 2004, Quick Facts about: Malaysia
A constitutional monarchy in southeastern Asia on Borneo and the Malay Peninsula; achieved independence from the United Kingdom in 1957Malaysia has a mandatory Quick Facts about: national service
(United Kingdom) compulsory service in the military during peacetimenational service of three months for a selected group of both men and women. 20% of 18-year-olds are selected through a lottery system to join this program. Trainees will not be trained using firearms. The first training date is Feb 16, 2004. See Official Information from Malaysia National Service Training Department.

NorwayQuick Facts about: Norway
A constitutional monarchy in northern Europe on the western side of the Scandinavian Peninsula; achieved independence from Sweden in 1905Norway has mandatory military service for men (women can volunteer) of 6, 9 or 12 months. Pacifists can apply for alternative service.

PolandQuick Facts about: Poland
A republic in central Europe; the invasion of Poland by Germany in 1939 started World War IIPoland has a compulsory service term of 12 months for all mature men. However, many of those are considered unfit for mandatory military service during peace time. Effectively, only a few thousand men are drafted each autumn. Alternative service can be requested, e.g. in the Quick Facts about: police
The force of policemen and officerspolice force.

RussiaAs of 2002, Quick Facts about: Russia
A federation in northeastern Europe and northern Asia; formerly Soviet Russia; since 1991 an independent stateRussia (Russian Federation) has a mandatory two-year draft but some Russians avoid it. See Only 11 percent of Russian men enter mandatory military service.

SingaporeQuick Facts about: Singapore
A country in southeastern Asia on the island of Singapore; achieved independence from Malaysia in 1965Singapore, which currently has a mandatory service period of between 22 to 24 months, used to have one of the longest mandatory military service for males, at two and a half years. It also has special policies for ethnic Malays, because of possible conflicts in allegiances with neighbour Quick Facts about: Malaysia
A constitutional monarchy in southeastern Asia on Borneo and the Malay Peninsula; achieved independence from the United Kingdom in 1957Malaysia. Some of the Malays drafted to the Quick Facts about: Police
The force of policemen and officersPolice or Quick Facts about: Civil Defense
Activities organized by civilians for their own protection in time of war or disasterCivil Defense.

South KoreaAs of 2004, Quick Facts about: South Korea
A republic in the southern half of the Korean Peninsula; established in 1948South Korea has a mandatory military service of 24 months. See: (*).

SwedenIn Sweden military service is mandatory for men only. As of 2002, Quick Facts about: Sweden
A Scandinavian kingdom in the eastern part of the Scandinavian PeninsulaSweden's government asked the army to consider mandatory army service for women. Less than a third of the Scandinavian country's eligible 19-year-olds are actually drafted each year. See Sweden considers mandatory military service for women.

Men may choose to do unarmed service, for instance as a firefighter. Generally unarmed service is longer than armed.

SwitzerlandQuick Facts about: Switzerland
A landlocked federal republic in central EuropeSwitzerland has the largest militia army in the world (200 000 including reserves). Military service for Swiss men is obligatory according to the Federal Constitution, and includes 17 weeks of basic training as well as annual 3-week-refresher courses until a number of service days which increases with rank (300 days for privates) is reached. Service for women is voluntary, but identical in all respects. Conscientous objectors can choose 450 days of community service instead of military service. Medical deferments and dismissals from basic training (often on somewhat dubious grounds) have increased significantly in the last years. Therefore, only about 33% of Swiss men actually complete basic training.

Taiwan (ROC)As of 2004, The Quick Facts about: Republic of China
A government on the island of Taiwan established in 1949 by Chiang Kai-shek after the conquest of mainland China by the communists led by Mao ZedongRepublic of China has implemented mandatory military service for all males since 1949. Females in the outlying islands of Quick Facts about: Fujian
Quick Summary not found for this subjectFujian must also serve. Beginning January 2004, the mandatory service has been shortened by two months. See Information from www.taipei.org.

TurkeyIn Quick Facts about: Turkey
A Eurasian republic in Asia Minor and the Balkans; achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1923Turkey, compulsory military service applies to all male citizens from 20 to 41 years of age (with some exceptions). Those who are engaged in higher-education or vocational training programs prior to their military drafting are allowed to delay service until they have completed the programs. The duration of the basic military service varies. As of July 2003, the reduced durations are as follows: 15 months for privates (previously 18 months), 12 months for reserve officers (previously 16 months) and 6 months for short-term privates, which denotes those who have earned a university degree and not have been enlisted as reserve officers (previously 8 months).

For Turkish citizens who have lived or worked abroad of Turkey for at least three years, on condition that they pay a certain fee in foreign currencies, a basic military training of one month is offered instead of the full-term military service. Also, when the General Staff assesses that the military reserve exceeds the required amount, paid military service of one-month basic training is established.

Although women have in principle no military service, they are allowed to become officers.

Refusing the obligatory military service due to conscientious objection is illegal in Turkey, and punishable with imprisonment by law.


I'm sure that alot of people who live in their respected countries above would disagree with your assumption.

Now for the list of countries with no Mandatory Military Service (and yes, the USA is still one of those countries)



Countries that do not currently have mandatory military service
AustraliaSee Quick Facts about: History of Australian Conscription
Quick Summary not found for this subjectHistory of Australian Conscription

CanadaSee main articles Quick Facts about: Conscription Crisis of 1917
Quick Summary not found for this subjectConscription Crisis of 1917 and Quick Facts about: Conscription Crisis of 1944
Quick Summary not found for this subjectConscription Crisis of 1944

In Quick Facts about: Canada
A nation in northern North America; the French were the first Europeans to settle in mainland CanadaCanada conscription has never taken place in peacetime. Conscription became an extremely controversial issue during both Quick Facts about: World War I
A war between the allies (Russia, France, British Empire, Italy, United States, Japan, Rumania, Serbia, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, Montenegro) and the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey, Bulgaria) from 1914 to 1918World War I and Quick Facts about: World War II
A war between the Allies (Australia, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, Czechoslovakia, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Ethiopia, France, Greece, Guatemala, Haiti, Honduras, India, Iran, Iraq, Luxembourg, Mexico, NetherlWorld War II, especially in the province of Quick Facts about: Quebec
The largest province of Canada; a French colony from 1663 to 1759 when it was lost to the BritishQuebec.

FranceFrance was one of the first nations to employ conscription. During the wars following the Quick Facts about: French Revolution
The revolution in France against the Bourbons; 1789-1799French Revolution the army needed men to stop invasions Austrian and British invasions. France abolished peacetime military conscription in 2001.

HungaryQuick Facts about: Hungary
A republic in central EuropeHungary had abolished mandatory military service by November 2004, after the parliament had modified the constitution, ending a long-standing political dispute. To restore drafting, a two thirds vote of the parliament is needed, which is unlikely in the short term. The country is currently developing a professional army, with strong emphasis on "contract soldiers" who voluntarily serve 4+4 years for a wage.

IraqSaddam Hussein's large army was largely conscripts except for the elite Republican Guard. His refusal to withdraw from Kuwait during the First Gulf War, resulted an estimated 100,000 conscript deaths in the bunkers during the United Nations attack. Following the Second Iraq War, the Iraqi Army has been recreated as a volunteer force.

RomaniaRomania abolished conscription, or mandatory military service, in 2003 as a result of an amendment to the Constitution, which included a series of reforms. The amendment was put to a national referendum which was approved by a significant majority.

Russian EmpireThe Russian Empire introduced a Quick Facts about: law
The collection of rules imposed by authoritylaw in 1873 regarding mandatory military service. The first draft took place in 1874. See: Military service in Russia Empire.

SloveniaQuick Facts about: Slovenia
A mountainous republic in central Europe; formerly part of the Habsburg monarchy and Yugoslavia; achieved independence in 1991Slovenia's Prime Minister Quick Facts about: Anton Rop
Quick Summary not found for this subjectAnton Rop abolished mandatory military service on September 9 2003. Read the Official Press Release.

United KingdomQuick Facts about: Great Britain
An island comprising England and Scotland and WalesGreat Britain introduced conscription during both world wars, in 1916 and 1939 respectively. After World War II, it introduced Quick Facts about: National Service
(United Kingdom) compulsory service in the military during peacetimeNational Service, which was abolished in 1960. Quick Facts about: Ireland
An island comprising the republic of Ireland and Northern IrelandIreland was initially exempt from conscription in the First World War but it was extended to Ireland on April 9, 1918. The poet W.B. Yeats wrote to Lord Haldane in protest "...it seems to me a strangely wanton thing that England, for the sake of 50,000 Irish soldiers, is prepared to hollow another trench between the countries and fill it with blood." Also in protest, Lady Gregory declared, "women and children will stand in front of their men and receive the bullets, rather than let them be taken to the front." Quick Facts about: Northern Ireland
A division of the United Kingdom located on the northern part of the island of IrelandNorthern Ireland was exempt from conscription in the Second World War, and was also excluded from the post-war National Service.

United StatesSee main article: Quick Facts about: Conscription in the United States
Quick Summary not found for this subjectConscription in the United States

The United States has employed conscription intermittently. For example, in 1863, the imposition of a draft during the Civil War touched off the Quick Facts about: New York Draft Riots
Quick Summary not found for this subjectNew York Draft Riots. Conscription was next used after the United States entered World War I in 1917. The first instance of conscription when the country was not at war came with the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940. Conscription ended in 1973. Currently, male U.S. citizens and many male aliens living in the U.S., if age 18 through 25, are required to register with the Selective Service System, which describes its mission as "preparing to manage a draft if and when Congress and the President so direct." (*)

The World War I draft was upheld by the Quick Facts about: Supreme Court
The highest federal court in the United States; has final appellate jurisdiction and has jurisdiction over all other courts in the nationSupreme Court against the challenge that it was "involuntary servitude" in violation of the Quick Facts about: Thirteenth Amendment
Quick Summary not found for this subjectThirteenth Amendment. Arver v. United States, 245 U.S. 366 (1918) ((*)). A lower Quick Facts about: appellate court
A court whose jurisdiction is to review decisions of lower courts or agenciesappellate court came to the same conclusion during the Vietnam War. United States v. Holmes, 387 F.2d 781 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 391 U.S. 936 (1968) ((*)). The Supreme Court has also upheld the constitutionality of the exclusion of women from the registration requirement. Rostker v. Goldberg, 453 U.S. 57 (1981) ((*)).

The United States currently does not employ conscription, but due to personnel shortages brought on by the invasion of Quick Facts about: Iraq
A republic in the Middle East in western Asia; the ancient civilization of Mesopotamia was in the area now known as Iraq; modern government is involved in state-sponsored terrorismIraq the U.S. Army has had to implement "stop-loss" policies. This requires soldiers to remain in the Army past the expiration of their contracted service, for a period of time usually long enough to complete a tour of duty in Quick Facts about: Iraq
A republic in the Middle East in western Asia; the ancient civilization of Mesopotamia was in the area now known as Iraq; modern government is involved in state-sponsored terrorismIraq or Quick Facts about: Afghanistan
A mountainous landlocked country in central Asia; bordered by Iran to the west and Russia to the north and Pakistan to the east and southAfghanistan. The U.S. has also been forced to call up numerous members of the Quick Facts about: Individual Ready Reserve
Quick Summary not found for this subjectIndividual Ready Reserve (personnel who have completed their contracted service, but not reached eight years of total military service). The Individual Ready Reserve was last used in Operation Desert Storm. These practices have individually and together been termed a "back-door draft". While not conscription in the truest sense, many liken these practices to the controversial forced service of the Quick Facts about: Vietnam War
A prolonged war (1954-1975) between the communist armies of North Vietnam who were supported by the Chinese and the non-communist armies of South Vietnam who were supported by the United StatesVietnam War era.

A resumption of conscription in the United States has been a hot topic in the latter part of 2004, as the U.S. Armed Forces (particularly the Army and Marine Corps) have endured personnel shortages in the ongoing occupations of Quick Facts about: Iraq
A republic in the Middle East in western Asia; the ancient civilization of Mesopotamia was in the area now known as Iraq; modern government is involved in state-sponsored terrorismIraq and Quick Facts about: Afghanistan
A mountainous landlocked country in central Asia; bordered by Iran to the west and Russia to the north and Pakistan to the east and southAfghanistan. While the current president, Quick Facts about: George W. Bush
43rd President of the United States; son of George Herbert Walker Bush (born in 1946)George W. Bush, has promised he will not reinstate the draft (and his opponent, Massachusetts Senator Quick Facts about: John Kerry
Quick Summary not found for this subjectJohn Kerry, has promised the same), many see a draft as inevitable if the Army and Marine Corps keep up their current pace of operations, or if the United States decides to undertake significant military operations in another part of the world.


link for draft info

I guess this is the "good guys" list huh?



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 10:46 PM
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mpeake...

forcing people to join the army is not the way to go...

but, if it gets to the point where the government forces people to join (a draft), then this is a problem...

why do we need a draft if people love this land so much and are willing to fight for it???





posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 10:58 PM
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why do we need a draft if people love this land so much and are willing to fight for it???


That's the problem with America today some of us have the mentality of someone else will do it doesn't have to be me. And I find it so funny that its the people that think like this that are the ones most surprised about talks of a draft.



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
That's the problem with America today some of us have the mentality of someone else will do it doesn't have to be me. And I find it so funny that its the people that think like this that are the ones most surprised about talks of a draft.


your right...

i don't want to DIE (as there is a HIGH percent you will on the "front lines" and, thus, killed) for the USA


who DOES!?!?!?





posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Passer By
Or as George Carlin says "Just don't show up. When wars have to be waged by the guys that start them wars will stop. As long as they send the poor out there to die, there is no incentive for the powers that be to change.



Regardless of how noble your anti-war philosophy, to the people who are hell-bent on destroying you and your way of life, it's just music to their ears.


Well, thank you for thinking my anti-war philosohy is noble. It really isn't an anti-war at all. It is anti-dumb war for no, or nebulus reason. HOwever, I still take it as a compliment as I beleive it was intended.

The problem is that I don't fear any invading army, I don't fear some evil guy in another nation. They are never the ones to fear because you see them coming a mile away. What I fear is when the comman person is put to sleep with fat bellies and being told everything is OK when very clearly everything is not and they don't question it, and worse condemn those that do.

In other words, the people that are hell bent on destorying my peacefull way is your president. The guy that is destablized the world is your president. The guy that has taken away the very rights and freedoms AMerican past generations fought and died for is your president. The evil dictator we were always worried about is your president. If you don't see it, which law or freedom does he have to break or recind before that thought is examined?

Does that mean that there were no problem prior? Ofcourse not, but surely you can see how him beating war drums, invading a country most of the world knew had nothing to do with 9/11 and lying to his own citizenry on the grounds for the invasion and, to a lesser extent drive a wedge between the American people themself's has weakened your country, weakened the world and put everyone in a very precarious position.

Consider this, what if the US didn't invade Iraq? What would have been the difference. How many people have been sent home in a body bag so far? They'd probably be alive and well. The amount of money spent there could have been used to help the people at home. America wouldn't have alienated her allies and wouldn't have given a reason for some frightened nuclear nation for a first strike. Saddam would have still been in power, but he was harmless to begin with. Most importantly - you wouldn't be out there demonstrating your might in front of the world for all your enemies to assess. To me that is dumb and horrible planning. IMO.

Once again, you seem like a very nice person and I love discussing these thimgs as I think it is needed. I mean no offense with any thoughts, and I try to think of both sides. If I haven't or feel I have ignored something or missed something please bring it up. I love these things....



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 11:29 PM
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i love my country, and wouldnt want to be ANYWHERE else!

i also plan on enlisting soon anyway, weve got ourselves in a lil situation, pretty soon well see the fireworks of a real war.



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 11:38 PM
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Passer, where do you live? Not in America, I gather.

What if Hussein had complied with the U.N. sanctions that ceased hostilities after the first war? What if, after 17 resolutions that he ignored, he did the right thing before it was too late? For one thing, we'd never heard about the atrocities he commited against the Iraqi people. He'd still be allowing major terrorist masterminds to use Iraq as a safe haven.

What if the WTC buildings hadn't been knocked down? What if the Pentagon hadn't beem struck, and what if a plane hadn't been destroyed over Pennsylvania? You know, I can go back a lot farther, to the Cole, to the barracks, to a couple emabassies....but you know all that. Heck, I could go back to when TWA got its nickname, "Traveling With Arabs"!

Yup, it's Shrub's fault. He's the one who dismantled our military capabilities and our intelligence-gathering capabilities the eight years before he was in office.

The world wasn't peaceful before Bush took the war to where the terrorists fester, and it for darned sure wasn't stable. But, hey, whatever you believe. It's nobody's fault but "our president".



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Passer, where do you live? Not in America, I gather.


Yes sir, Toronto Ontario Canada.


Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

What if Hussein had complied with the U.N. sanctions that ceased hostilities after the first war? What if, after 17 resolutions that he ignored, he did the right thing before it was too late? For one thing, we'd never heard about the atrocities he commited against the Iraqi people. He'd still be allowing major terrorist masterminds to use Iraq as a safe haven.


- Seriously you can't use not abiding by resolutions of the UN and then refuse to follow what the UN yourself. There is a word for that right? Who ever said he used terrorist masterminds - and if he did, that still only puts him equal to Bus CO right? Surely you see the falacy here.



Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

What if the WTC buildings hadn't been knocked down? What if the Pentagon hadn't beem struck, and what if a plane hadn't been destroyed over Pennsylvania? You know, I can go back a lot farther, to the Cole, to the barracks, to a couple emabassies....but you know all that. Heck, I could go back to when TWA got its nickname, "Traveling With Arabs"!



You could, but the problem is we can arbitrarily go back indefinately it becomes a chicken and egg thing. Also, I might add there is still alot of questions in regarding the WTC's and also Iraq had nothing to do with it - despite what the general public thought. Why would they think that do you suppose? However, I digress. In the end you say Cole, they say AMerican imperialism. You say the next then they reiterate it, and America proves them right with every step along with the corperate elite. Sure you know it is killing little kids in other parts of the world, but American needed thier cares, their chemicals, they pesticides, etc. Did you think that people would put up with it? Seriously? This has been going on since the times of the plains indians, it isn't something new to AMerica it is a character flaw within it.



Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Yup, it's Shrub's fault. He's the one who dismantled our military capabilities and our intelligence-gathering capabilities the eight years before he was in office.

The world wasn't peaceful before Bush took the war to where the terrorists fester, and it for darned sure wasn't stable. But, hey, whatever you believe. It's nobody's fault but "our president".



I beleive I acknowledged it was peacefull prior didn't I? I merely stated that Bush has exaberated the problems and continues to do so. All the while without providing proof of why you are there now, and lies about what got you there in the first place. Whether it was Bush himself that did it or not is irrelevent, and since I am not American I have no feelings one way or another in terms ofpolitics of your country - but wrong is wrong, and the only thing worse than making a mistake is not accepting and dealing with it. I see none of that in AMerican politics today.

Withdraw has become a political thing now, when it always should have been a military thing. Ofcourse if they had that attitude prior this mess may have been averted and how many families would still be whole?

As a side in the conspiracy vien, maybe they are not saying they were wrong because they are afraid of the famlies filing a wrongfull death class action law suit?



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
i don't want to DIE (as there is a HIGH percent you will on the "front lines" and, thus, killed) for the USA


who DOES!?!?!?




Actually, the percentage is relatively low that you will be killed on the front lines. Actual combat related deaths are approx 1300.
news.yahoo.com.../ap/20050611/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_us_deaths

The number of troops in Iraq are approx 135k.
www.globalsecurity.org...

The US military deaths would only account for .96% of the troops stationed. Of course I don't know what percentage of "frontline" troops are to the total troops out there, but lets say that a quarter of the troops are considered front line (33750). Then the percentage of front line troops killed in combat are 3.8%. Of course even those numbers are severly skewed since it is not only frontline troops that get involved in combat situations.

My point is not to say that death is acceptable, just that the chances of death are relatively low considering the number of troops out there.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 11:46 AM
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hey Crowne he did comply! No WMD, no programs, no nothing! Saddam is guilty of one thing thou having to much oil under his command and not cutting American buisness a good deal. Infact using EUROS!!



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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I think for some people no matter how many dots you connect, they still cannot see the big picture. The Bushes lied their way into the power structure of America, starting with Prescott Bush and his Nazi ties in which his own bank was shut down due to such, to Dubya Sr. who was a big part of the assassination of JFK (watch this documentary I believe it connects too many dots to deny it's accuracy www.mindtoysrus.com... ) now to Bush Jr. who I do believe was involved in 9/11 be it a popular opinion or not.
I don't believe you can ever trust your President because they work for the Powers that Be. The last one being JFK himself because he stepped up to the Shadow Government and tried to abolish it by ending the corrupt money system and spoke out against it, only to get popped showing every President since that you better not get out of line.
Like I said you can connect dots like crazy Bushes > Oil > Iraq > Chaney > Halliburton > Bush Stock in Defenses that made millions of 9/11 > Four planes were not shot down by NORAD after 70 minutes of being hijacked, yet golfer Payne Stewarts single plane went off radar a few years ago and was swarmed in 20, not to mention NORAD had never had a "failure" like that day in it's 50 year history > Operation Northwood in the 60's which talked about flying planes into buildings to get the U.S. people behind a war against Cuba> Government agents quitting and blowing the whistle on the Government. I mean I could go on and on, but yet to the average person they're all just thrown aside as "coinicidences" I mean it takes an incredible mind to throw these things aside I feel but maybe that's just me.

[edit on 14-6-2005 by NoJustice]



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 07:33 PM
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mpeake...

really!?!?!?

i guess i was wrong...

but there is always news about soldiers dying in iraq everyday...

so i just assumed...





posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 12:00 AM
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Originally posted by they see ALL
mpeake...

really!?!?!?

i guess i was wrong...

but there is always news about soldiers dying in iraq everyday...

so i just assumed...




Yup, looks like the liberal media has tricked you into thinking the war is going worse than it is...next they'll have you thinking GITMO is a bad idea...sad.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 12:31 AM
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Hey NoJustice, here's a couple of thoughts:

1. Joe Kennedy was a bootlegger, gangster, murder and Nazi Sympathizer. Look up videos of him defending Hitler. The Kennedy got rich off a prohabition which is a documented fact. Even today they get a percentage of all Irish Whiskey shipped into the US. JFK was a mobster's son that probably had Marilyn Monroe killed, and did things like the Bay of Pigs that made Nixon look like a choir boy.

I'm not bashing Kennedy. I liked him a lot. I'm just saying don't have a double standard. Just because someone has a (R) next to their name, or took out Alger Hiss does not make them Lex Luthor. A lot of ways today we are still in the caveman era. We have to fight and steal to get rich.

2. to Dubya Sr. who was a big part of the assassination of JFK Now you are just being silly. It is Oswald all himself. The shots he took aren't impossible. I can get as many shots off with a shotgun and .22 rifle.

And I'm not watching the movie because it is probably ten hours long, and I don't feel like downloading a movie.

3. Bush Jr. who I do believe was involved in 9/11 be it a popular opinion or not.
For someone that is a complete idiot that flunk out of Yale, he sure is smart. I would like to meet someone that covered up the largest terrorist attack in the world in the freest, richest, most aggresive media marketplace there ever is. I mean one man being able to fake passengers that their pilot is a remote control (either this or they were CIA Mossad agents Bush convinced to comit suicide out of the blue), create fake videos of hijackers boarding planes and have their backgrounds check out, crash them into the twin towers, fire a missle at the Pentagon and take a flight out at the same time, and most importantly convince the tens of thousands of hotly partisans involved inside his cabinet, government agencies, airline workers, family, and witnesses to follow him is a genius.

If Bush was able to do all these things, I wouldn't impeach him. No, I would test to see if he could walk on water and cure the blind.

4. I don't believe you can ever trust your President because they work for the Powers that Be.
That's why Jimmy Carter is agreeing so much with Bush. That's why Bill Clinton defeated the guy that assassinated JFK, in your opinion.

5. The last one being JFK himself because he stepped up to the Shadow Government and tried to abolish it by ending the corrupt money system and spoke out against it, only to get popped showing every President since that you better not get out of line.
Sending an army of gangsters to take over Cuba so it could be a Vegas South isn't ending the corrupt money system. Neither getting us in Vietnam, or being Kruschev's lap dog in Berlin.

Here's a deep secret, the only reason historians love him is because he defeated Nixon, the guy that exposed Alger Hiss and liked it when the Rosenbergs shoke hands with Mr. Sparky. Him and his protege, LBJ, created modern welfare as it is. That worked out great too.

Like I said you can connect dots like crazy Bushes > Oil
Yeah, he got ANWAR and Gulf drilling opened up no problem. He's oil mad.

> Iraq > Chaney > Halliburton >
Haliburton is getting the same deals as under the Clinton administration. They are a very very good company.

Bush Stock in Defenses that made millions of 9/11 >
Uh, first off Bush has to sell anything that will give him a conflict of interest or put it into a blind trust before he took office. And the stock market is lower now than it was before 9/11. Shutting down the world economy for a week is not a good way to make a fortune.

Also he already has a lot of money. Why would he risk the electric chair by staging 9.11 if he was already rich? He already won the presidency. That guarantess a six figure salary at any university or major corporation. He also would make a ton of more money on speaking tours.

Four planes were not shot down by NORAD after 70 minutes of being hijacked, yet golfer Payne Stewarts single plane went off radar a few years ago and was swarmed in 20, not to mention NORAD had never had a "failure" like that day in it's 50 year history >
There was a plane in the area and it had more time to respond to Payne Stewart. Didn't Payne Stewart radio in that he was having trouble, and then flew for a long time? It wasn't until he passed out that the plane crash.

Also NORAD was monitoring planes from the outside in. And 70 minutes number is off. You have to look at when the plane was going off course. And then you have to look at the physics of a plane being ready and catching up with an already moving plane.

Operation Northwood in the 60's which talked about flying planes into buildings to get the U.S. people behind a war against Cuba>
60s was all LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover, and a Democratic Congress. So it's there fault?
Government agents quitting and blowing the whistle on the Government.
Yeah, that's the problem. No one is coming out and saying, "I saw a CIA agent piloting the planes remotely" or "I wrote the Memo for NORAD to step down." If this stuff happened, they would be coming out of the woodwork. All we have is Richard Clarke saying Bush wanted Sadaam out before 9/11.

I mean I could go on and on, but yet to the average person they're all just thrown aside as "coinicidences" I mean it takes an incredible mind to throw these things aside I feel but maybe that's just me.
I take them as grasping at straws. Intellectual ejaculations. I need money to pay the rent book deals.

[edit on 15-6-2005 by RedWhiteandBlood]



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 07:33 AM
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As for Euro countries and their national service, I don't see them getting bogged down in some sandpit for 10 years anytime soon. You can justify your draft by using their example if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that this will be a war draft and not a peace time service stint.

I know I would rather be learning SAM site SOPs in Sweden than checkpoint SOPs in South Carolina.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 08:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by RedWhiteandBlood
Hey NoJustice, here's a couple of thoughts:

1. Joe Kennedy was a bootlegger, gangster, murder and Nazi Sympathizer. Look up videos of him defending Hitler. The Kennedy got rich off a prohabition which is a documented fact. Even today they get a percentage of all Irish Whiskey shipped into the US. JFK was a mobster's son that probably had Marilyn Monroe killed, and did things like the Bay of Pigs that made Nixon look like a choir boy.

I'm not bashing Kennedy. I liked him a lot. I'm just saying don't have a double standard. Just because someone has a (R) next to their name, or took out Alger Hiss does not make them Lex Luthor. A lot of ways today we are still in the caveman era. We have to fight and steal to get rich.

2. to Dubya Sr. who was a big part of the assassination of JFK Now you are just being silly. It is Oswald all himself. The shots he took aren't impossible. I can get as many shots off with a shotgun and .22 rifle.

And I'm not watching the movie because it is probably ten hours long, and I don't feel like downloading a movie.

3. Bush Jr. who I do believe was involved in 9/11 be it a popular opinion or not.
For someone that is a complete idiot that flunk out of Yale, he sure is smart. I would like to meet someone that covered up the largest terrorist attack in the world in the freest, richest, most aggresive media marketplace there ever is. I mean one man being able to fake passengers that their pilot is a remote control (either this or they were CIA Mossad agents Bush convinced to comit suicide out of the blue), create fake videos of hijackers boarding planes and have their backgrounds check out, crash them into the twin towers, fire a missle at the Pentagon and take a flight out at the same time, and most importantly convince the tens of thousands of hotly partisans involved inside his cabinet, government agencies, airline workers, family, and witnesses to follow him is a genius.

If Bush was able to do all these things, I wouldn't impeach him. No, I would test to see if he could walk on water and cure the blind.

4. I don't believe you can ever trust your President because they work for the Powers that Be.
That's why Jimmy Carter is agreeing so much with Bush. That's why Bill Clinton defeated the guy that assassinated JFK, in your opinion.

5. The last one being JFK himself because he stepped up to the Shadow Government and tried to abolish it by ending the corrupt money system and spoke out against it, only to get popped showing every President since that you better not get out of line.
Sending an army of gangsters to take over Cuba so it could be a Vegas South isn't ending the corrupt money system. Neither getting us in Vietnam, or being Kruschev's lap dog in Berlin.

Here's a deep secret, the only reason historians love him is because he defeated Nixon, the guy that exposed Alger Hiss and liked it when the Rosenbergs shoke hands with Mr. Sparky. Him and his protege, LBJ, created modern welfare as it is. That worked out great too.

Like I said you can connect dots like crazy Bushes > Oil
Yeah, he got ANWAR and Gulf drilling opened up no problem. He's oil mad.

> Iraq > Chaney > Halliburton >
Haliburton is getting the same deals as under the Clinton administration. They are a very very good company.

Bush Stock in Defenses that made millions of 9/11 >
Uh, first off Bush has to sell anything that will give him a conflict of interest or put it into a blind trust before he took office. And the stock market is lower now than it was before 9/11. Shutting down the world economy for a week is not a good way to make a fortune.

Also he already has a lot of money. Why would he risk the electric chair by staging 9.11 if he was already rich? He already won the presidency. That guarantess a six figure salary at any university or major corporation. He also would make a ton of more money on speaking tours.

Four planes were not shot down by NORAD after 70 minutes of being hijacked, yet golfer Payne Stewarts single plane went off radar a few years ago and was swarmed in 20, not to mention NORAD had never had a "failure" like that day in it's 50 year history >
There was a plane in the area and it had more time to respond to Payne Stewart. Didn't Payne Stewart radio in that he was having trouble, and then flew for a long time? It wasn't until he passed out that the plane crash.

Also NORAD was monitoring planes from the outside in. And 70 minutes number is off. You have to look at when the plane was going off course. And then you have to look at the physics of a plane being ready and catching up with an already moving plane.

Operation Northwood in the 60's which talked about flying planes into buildings to get the U.S. people behind a war against Cuba>
60s was all LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover, and a Democratic Congress. So it's there fault?
Government agents quitting and blowing the whistle on the Government.
Yeah, that's the problem. No one is coming out and saying, "I saw a CIA agent piloting the planes remotely" or "I wrote the Memo for NORAD to step down." If this stuff happened, they would be coming out of the woodwork. All we have is Richard Clarke saying Bush wanted Sadaam out before 9/11.

I mean I could go on and on, but yet to the average person they're all just thrown aside as "coinicidences" I mean it takes an incredible mind to throw these things aside I feel but maybe that's just me.
I take them as grasping at straws. Intellectual ejaculations. I need money to pay the rent book deals.

[edit on 15-6-2005 by RedWhiteandBlood]


Joe Kennedy, JFK's father was a thug this is true. He wanted his son to do his dirty work. But he's one of the few presidents that stood up and tried to be a real President.

If you'd take the time to watch that video (it's only an hour and a half) the CIA was doing things behind JFK's back without his permission. Including the bombing of Cuba.

The Four planes were off radar for app. 70 minutes. They knocked them off radar after the hijack. It wasn't like they were just up the street from the Towers.

To say Oswald was the sole murderer is just plain wrong. Even the average American knows this is false. I think you're pulling at straws there.

Obviously I'm not saying GWB did 9/11 by himself you're knew that. I believe most of the real people in charge of the Government were behind it.

As for "getting the electric chair" for it. You don't understand the true power structure at all. You think the President is the true leader of our country. This is false. But I guess to you when JFK comes out and talks about the Shadow Government, he's just imagining things huh? When George Bush Sr. and Jr. talk about the New World Order, they really mean it is a peaceful way. When Henry Kissinger comes out in the 90's and says "Today, Americans would be outraged if U.N. forces entered Los Angeles to restore order, Tomorrow, they will be greeted." you must think he was just high or something. These things are being said right in your face. You either need to a.) do some more research or b.) wake up. And the media is the Government's b****, just look at Newsweek and the story that happened in Afghanistan. Government tells them to retract the story, and they retract the story and say they made a mistake.

quote:
Highly recognized former chief economist (Morgan Reynolds, Ph.D) in Labor Department now doubts official 9/11 story, claiming suspicious facts and evidence cover-up indicate government foul play and possible criminal implications.
June 12, 2005
By Greg Szymanski
www.arcticbeacon.com...

A former chief economist in the Labor Department during President Bush's first term now believes the official story about the collapse of the WTC is 'bogus,' saying it is more likely that a controlled demolition destroyed the Twin Towers and adjacent Building No. 7.

"If demolition destroyed three steel skyscrapers at the World Trade Center on 9/11, then the case for an 'inside job' and a government attack on America would be compelling," said Morgan Reynolds, Ph.D, a former member of the Bush team who also served as director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis headquartered in Dallas, TX.

Reynolds, now a professor emeritus at Texas A&M University, also believes it's 'next to impossible' that 19 Arab Terrorists alone outfoxed the mighty U.S. military, adding the scientific conclusions about the WTC collapse may hold the key to the entire mysterious plot behind 9/11."

But I'm sure to you this woman that is alot smarter than you, that worked for the administration and is coming forward with these accusations, must be crazy huh? I mean what does it take?

I know you're going to reply with a million things that try to prove me wrong but I've said my part. That's all I seem to do is go back and forth with people on this forum I'm kind of tired of it. I said what I think and I've backed up my opinion with evidence so you can do whatever you want with it try to research to back it up like watch the video link I gave, throw it out of your brain. I really don't care. Most likely no matter is said to try to prove otherwise I'll still believe what I believe and you'll still believe what you believe and it'll just go back and forth.






[edit on 15-6-2005 by NoJustice]



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by Rasputin13
The only people that are talking of a draft is the Liberal fear-mongers who want to scare everyone into voting for them, giving up support for the Republicans, and backing the acts of our Administration in the War on Terror.

...


It is the NeoCons (Republicans) who are to blame for the war? It is the Democrats who are promulgating the war and now the draft?

Who's fault is it anyway? I don't think you can have it both ways Ras' old boy.




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