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The Cobra Maneuver

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posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 01:31 PM
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Ok, how many people here think this particular maneuver is useful in combat (and actually physically possible with a full tank of gas and a full weapons load.)

I for one, know for a fact that it's not, and simply can't do it fully loaded.

Please, give me your thoughts and we can finally put this to rest.



The Su-27S made its formal introduction to the West at the 1989 Paris Air Show, when Viktor Pugachev ran the aircraft through the now-famous "Cobra" maneuver, lifting the fighter to an angle of attack of over 90 degrees to its line of flight, causing abrupt deceleration until it nosed back down. The Cobra maneuver was apparently invented by another Sukhoi test pilot, Valerii Menitsky, as a flight-test exercise, but it became associated with Pugachev, it seems with his encouragement, and is also often called the "Pugachev maneuver" or "Pugachev Cobra". Few aviation experts believe that the Cobra maneuver has much combat utility, but it is undeniably a spectacular airshow trick.


www.vectorsite.net...





[edit on 13-6-2005 by Hockeyguy567]




posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 05:59 AM
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There's already a long and controversal thread about that. Looky here
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 06:11 AM
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(and actually physically possible with a full tank of gas and a full weapons load.)


It has been done on a Su-30MK, with a full load weighing 7000 pounds including dumb bombs,R-27s,R-73s,R-77s and guided missles, where the Su-30MK went up to 120 degrees AoA. That ends it, the Cobra CAN be done on a full load.

But, one thing I agree with you, the Cobra would be of little use in combat. Speed and altitude are the 2 deciding factors in combat, and doing something like the Cobra would bleed these two off quickly (maybe not so much altitude), but it would still become lunch to the Sidewinder or any other infared missle, even if Stealth Spy is right on that article about the Tailslide and the doppler effect.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 07:19 AM
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There are very few pilots trained enough to pull off a successful and survivable 'cobra', 'super cobra', and/or 'kulbit' maneuver in a actual air combat environment.

It is not a trained nor practiced air combat doctrine maneuver for any air force in the world today.

It may be a last ditch type maneuver for a very select fewpilots, but the maneuver is nothing but a show stopping maneuver.....nothing more, StealthSpy's feasibility theoreticals aside.





seekerof



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 07:33 AM
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The test pilots are probably the only ones who know how to pull off manouvers such as these. A normal Russian/Indian/Chinese fighter jock's training would not involve manovers like these. Simply put, these have absolutely NO practical combat use, although the manouverability would be useful in doing turns and loops to dogfight.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 02:59 PM
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A test pilot performed the “cobra” with the Raptor and fired a Sidewinder while performing the “Cobra“, it was armed but I don't now if it had full tank of fuel.




posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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It has been done on a Su-30MK, with a full load weighing 7000 pounds including dumb bombs,R-27s,R-73s,R-77s and guided missles, where the Su-30MK went up to 120 degrees AoA. That ends it, the Cobra CAN be done on a full load.


I'm afraid you're mistaken.

Remember the lone Su-37 that was built? Well, you know why it crashed? Take a wild guess. (It also did it with its gear down, which was dumb)



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 03:21 PM
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Stealth Spy debunked that pic already, it is really easy just to take a picture and rotate it such that the plane is doing a cobra. I seen a video on discovery channel showing the F-22 doing manovers, one of them a "cobra",where the F-22 goes to 120 degrees AoA,stalling, then coming back down.

For fun, I did this to amuse myself (I am pathetic btw), here is a MiG-21 Bis doing a Cobra




Hockeyguy, the Su-37 suceeded in doing the cobra with gears down. Why did it crash, I'm not sure.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 04:56 PM
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I don't know about whether that F-22 pic was rotated but I think it's more possible that it's flying at 80 deg pitch inverted (flying up almost).

Anyway, if anyone wants to see if the cobra is good for combat, I suggest you try Lock-on, Modern Air Combat (PC flight sim) online against other pilots. Fly your Su-27 or Su-33 and do all the cobras you want while facing expert pilots who know better than to do that. You'll get your brains blown out!



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Stealth Spy debunked that pic already, it is really easy just to take a picture and rotate it such that the plane is doing a cobra.


I really have no place to comment on the plausibility or the useability of the cobra, but it'd take a pretty expert photoshop artist to rotate just the F-22 and not the clouds or the mountain in the background, without leaving any kind of artifacts in the pic. To my untrained eye, it doesn't appear to be pasted in at all. Then again, if I'm understanding the premise of the manouver at all, a pic doesn't help at all anyways--the plane could be in mid loop, which isn't uncommon for fighters at all (if I'm not mistaken). That'd be easier than trying to fake a pic anyways. There's nothing in the pics that says it's in the cobra at all. My two cents at least.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 06:51 PM
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In the Raptor picture you can see the exhaust stream coming out of the jet, it would take a great deal of work to paste that in the picture as well, if it is fake.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
In the Raptor picture you can see the exhaust stream coming out of the jet, it would take a great deal of work to paste that in the picture as well, if it is fake.


A very good point, but I think moreso that the fact it exists shows more attention to detail than someone trying to pull one over on everyone generally has. Doing a little blurry spot like that with some gray shading isn't that difficult in PS; anyone who's fiddled with the different tools for a day or two could do it pretty easily.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 10:11 PM
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Here is the link, you can decide for yourself if this website made the story and the picture up.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 10:21 PM
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Fully loaded Part Duex

The F-22 picture is of the Raptor performing a 70 degree AOA.
Outside tests have shown the F-22 doing beyond 80+ degree AOA.
Remember, the F-22 is the only aircraft that can perform a constant 60 degree AOA, while rocking its wings at high speed(s).



seekerof



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 04:11 AM
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About that picture,any guy who knows anything about photoshop at all, can just crop a plane, find another background and post the inverted aircraft there. As for the exaust part, the MiG-21's pic which I posted also has exaust coming out from its nozzles. In the F-22 "cobra", the exaust is pointing straight away from the aircraft. Let me flip it and show you what I mean.

Lets look at this picture now. Does it look more familiar now, more like a F-22 climbing? The exaust is going exactly where it should be going if it climbed. In fact, if you looked at the video of the Flanker doing the Cobra, the exaust was actually pointing at a 45 degrees angle away from the aircraft, not at a straight angle parallel to the aircraft.



Lets take the aircraft out of the background, and paste another background picture inside (I have photoshop, but I'm too lazy. Someone else do this for me, pls
). Et Viola, a climbing F-22. Now you know how much effort it took the guy to fool everyone with just one picture.

And SeekerOf, those planes can't do Cobras. They just don't have TVC. I would like to see you show me a video of them doing a Cobra. (No pictures pls).

[edit on 15/6/05 by W4rl0rD]

[edit on 15/6/05 by W4rl0rD]



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Here is the link, you can decide for yourself if this website made the story and the picture up.

Your link said "high G missile launch" and "elevated g turn." It did not say "cobra."



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:18 PM
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Maybe someone can explain this to me how in the hell is the Raptor climbing with e mountains being vertical? How can the Raptor climb if its trying to go parallel with e side of the mountains?


Your link said "high G missile launch" and "elevated g turn." It did not say "cobra."


Are you serious? The “cobra” is a nickname that we call it, you think the military actually calls it a cobra? Of course not because its not official, I can make up any nickname for any A2A maneuver.

Listen The Raptor is a very maneuverable aircraft even more so than the F-15, believe what you want but I suggest you stop spinning everything.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Lets look at this picture now. Does it look more familiar now, more like a F-22 climbing? The exaust is going exactly where it should be going if it climbed. In fact, if you looked at the video of the Flanker doing the Cobra, the exaust was actually pointing at a 45 degrees angle away from the aircraft, not at a straight angle parallel to the aircraft.

Erm, W4rl0rd....
That photo is an official Air Force/Lockheed Martin photo. It has been around longer than you have been on this site. I originally posted it in my Cobra Maneuver: The Truth topic thread. Now you want to "debunk" an official Air Force/Lockheed Martin photo? Knock yourself out, but while your doing so, please bear in mind that I have never stated that the picture was of a Raptor performing a "cobra maneuver", k? Be assurd that the Raptor can perform one though. Hello1?




Lets take the aircraft out of the background, and paste another background picture inside (I have photoshop, but I'm too lazy. Someone else do this for me, pls
). Et Viola, a climbing F-22. Now you know how much effort it took the guy to fool everyone with just one picture.

First off, how about find the time instead of being "lazy" to back up your assertion. When you do find the "time" how about make sure it looks authentic as the actual photo, maybe? As I have said before, the photo is of a Raptor performing a upside down/inverted 70 degree AOA. Check the link to my original thread on the "show-stopping" cobra maneuver and see, k?
Horizon is left to right: 0 to 180. 90 degrees would be straight up. Take the Raptor and verify. The Raptor, in the authentic photo, is performing a upside down/inverted 70 degree AOA. Hello2?




And SeekerOf, those planes can't do Cobras. They just don't have TVC. I would like to see you show me a video of them doing a Cobra. (No pictures pls).

A debatable video has been posted a number of times in this forum, W4rl0rD. Personally, as I have stated over and over before, regardless of whether the Raptor can perform one or not, is the maneuver air-combat worthy? Not likely, and never will. That you can take to the bank, despite how you and SteathSpy wish to keep dragging and playing this out.



The cobra maneuver and all such maneuvers are pointless and have little to NO air-combat value, period. All they indicate is maneuverability, which does not and will not ever fully account for success in a real air-combat environment. there are multiples of factors that are combined and added to maneuverability to dictate and assure a "Splash One," my friend.







seekerof

[edit on 15-6-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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Your link said "high G missile launch" and "elevated g turn." It did not say "cobra."


Are you serious? The “cobra” is a nickname that we call it, you think the military actually calls it a cobra? Of course not because its not official, I can make up any nickname for any A2A maneuver.

Listen The Raptor is a very maneuverable aircraft even more so than the F-15, believe what you want but I suggest you stop spinning everything.


Cobra refers to a specific manoeuvre where the plane pulls 100-120 degree AoA, then back down to level flight. Look at Stealth Spy's signature for the animation. High G simply means a lot of loading, it has no implication on AoA or what kind of manoeuvre it's doing. A plane could be pulling 9+ G with only 20-30 degree AoA if it were flying fast. I'm not sure what they mean by "elevated G turn," but if it's a "turn," it's not a Cobra, since the direction of travel in a Cobra virtually does not change. It's more probable that by "elevated" they either mean high (G's) or a vertical half loop, which this what this pic suggests it's actually doing.

I will demonstrate

I indicated with white arrow where the F-22 SHOULD be travelling if it were performing a cobra. However, judging by the direction of the engine vapour (circled red), it is more probable that it is simply performing a high G turn and going inverted with high climb (approximation of actual direction in yellow arrow.) I indicated in blue arrow where the "wind" SHOULD be blowing relative to the F-22 if it were in a cobra, however, apparently the engine vapour (circled in red) does not suggest to me that its in a Cobra. It should be "blown" leftwards as opposed to being parallel to the plane's body as seen here.

[edit on 16-6-2005 by Taishyou]



posted on Jun, 16 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Actually I sort of agree with Warlord but for different reasons. I have always had a problem with the claim that this photo shows a Raptor performing a 'cobra'. However, unlike Warlord, I have no doubts that the photo is 100% genuine.

You simply cannot deduce what direction, speed or manouvre is depicted in a photograph, it is impossible and anyone who claims different is using that well known aftershave 'B.S.'

To look at that photo and decide it shows a cobra manouvre is nothing more than jumping to wild conclusions.

What is to say that the aircraft is not simply approaching the top of a loop? It really could be that simple.

Someone once tried to convince me by pointing to the direction of the jet thrust. What is remarkable about the thrust coming straight out of the back in perfect alignment with the fuselage? Any photo of any jet in the same attitude will show exactly the same thing, it would be more convincing if the jet thrust was deflected which would then show that the airframe was been pushed off the datum line, however it clearly is not.

This proves nothing about the Raptors ability or inability to perform a cobra, but the photo itself proves nothing other than the Raptor exists and can fly so why keep wheeling it out?



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