Permenant Magnet motor

Gearing will offer no more watts then it already does. I think cooling the motor in a fridge or when its cold outside may either slow it down or speed it up. If cooling it slows it down then it may really work with just the heat thats generated, then try covering the ends.

I've heard of drum in drum oil heaters that have been said to be over unity so it might be the heat setting up a vortex between the sufaces.
I haven't stated on making one yet because I have other projects going that I'm part way through and need to be done by the end of summer.

Thats true.Gearing won't produce more wattage.Not quite what I was thinking of though.I came up with this idea this morning that I will be trying after the motor is built.It works similar to an automatic transmission.

Inside a housing I will install two counter rotating finned plates The housing will be filled with water.The plate driven by the magnetic motor will cause the water to churn and in turn rotate the output plate.That will in turn power some device.

Atr first I will connect that to probably a generator to measure output.But we'll see what happens after I get going on the project.I still have to figure out some calculations on the magnet layout first though.I'm going to try to build this as cheaply as possible so anyone that wants to build one can.

Interesting thread

Regarding permanent magenets losing their power when used in a moter; yes, they will fail if they are "smashed" against each other. The key is to make your motor "harmonious". Learn to channel magnetism/magnetic energy and you'll learn the power of over-unity. Various metals have various effects on magnetism - magnesium composites, aluminium, brass, iron etc etc.

Cheers

JS

Has anyone seen "Art's parts" that was supposedly from area 51?
art's parts
Apparently, bismuth has unique charcteristics... being electrogravitic.

Originally posted by jumpspace
Interesting thread

Regarding permanent magenets losing their power when used in a moter; yes, they will fail if they are "smashed" against each other. The key is to make your motor "harmonious". Learn to channel magnetism/magnetic energy and you'll learn the power of over-unity. Various metals have various effects on magnetism - magnesium composites, aluminium, brass, iron etc etc.

Cheers

Originally posted by jumpspace
Interesting thread

Regarding permanent magenets losing their power when used in a moter; yes, they will fail if they are "smashed" against each other. The key is to make your motor "harmonious". Learn to channel magnetism/magnetic energy and you'll learn the power of over-unity. Various metals have various effects on magnetism - magnesium composites, aluminium, brass, iron etc etc.

Cheers

JS

You don't even have to bang them together.The EMF generated by the proximal fields causes them to weaken over time.So far I haven't found one reference to a PM motor that has lasted more than several months.It must be remembered that a "permenent" magnet is not really permanent.We can think of it as a battery for magnetic force,and just like a standard dry cell,it will die out after a period of time.

The length of that time depends on the manufature of the magnet,as you say.But we just wanna have some fun with this project.Still,all comments can be useful,never know when someone will have a eureka moment.

Feel free to post more,Posting,XL5,Shadow88 and I don't need to do this alone you know.Join the fun.

JS

Got your u2u Posting.Great idea.Unfortunately I am unable to reply do to lack of posting for quota and am not permitted to post on the other thread you started.

I have come upon a couple of problems with the designs that I could pull from memory and need to work out a solution to them before I start construction of the motor itself.If I am thinking right I will have to find a loophole in the laws of thermodynamics you mentioned.Has to be one somewhere.Every law has at least one loophole doesn't it?

I also think that the way to make this thing viable will be to have it power some other device through a transmission of sorts.Working on that design too.

Hunt down some info on a guy named William J. Hooper.He has a patent on a device thatis similar to the one I built back in the 70s.It's not exactley the same but pretty close as I remember.

Check out orihu.net... I got 13 pages out of it with lots of research notes.

I'll stick around for a couple of months and see what happens with the project,but I'm becoming somewhat disenchanted with this ATS board stuff.
We'll see what happens.

All,
I really need help here:

I have found the following site that sells magnets, and various other materials. Could be pretty useful:

scientificsonline.com...

BUT, I need to find resources (websites or not) for places that sell stuff that fits the following needs:

-Drill
-Acrylic plastic (possibly as a temporary chassis to mount spinning materials). I actually already have this material, which should be helpful at least to me. Other suggestions for easily workable chassis materials are completely welcome.
-plastic gears (mainly to keep gears that are supposed to spin, and counter-spin against each other).
-A way of mounting gears in the acrylic so that it can tolerate high-spin rates.
-A way of mounting the magnets so that they can easily be adjusted without dealing with glue or adhesives.

That is it for now. I want to brainstorm here, to minimize the chatter in the research thread. Once we have a list of decent resources, one of us should post there. I can do that if need be.

-P

Check out your local hobby shops.They have all kinds of plastic sheets and structural shapes.Acrylic is good if you need see through material but I have found the pvc products work equally as well.They can also sell you the tools and hardware you need to work with it.If you haven't any hobby shops in your community look in the yellow pages under modeling aand model railroad supplies as well.

As far as adjusting the magnets goes I don't think a perfect answer can be found.However,since my motor is going to be cylindrical,I plan on machining slots where the magnets will be mounted.If I can find them again I will be using disc magnets with a hole in the center.They will be secured with a plastic screw and nut.

I haven't found just the right source for what I want yet,but I do have a drawing for the basic motor already.I have not created dimensions yet because of this.After I find my magnets I"ll post the source and description of my motor here.

The concept itself is good, the problem is about how you're going to go about making it.

Hey guys,I've got an additional part of the solution to think about.There are about 5-6 motors that have been built,none of which have been able to produce any viable HP for work.Does anyone have any thoughts on constructing a low input-high output transmission or torque converter of some sort?If the motors meager output can be multiplied somehow,I think it would have better prospects for more research beyond our stage of engagement.

If the output cant be made suffiecient then what is the possibility of sticking several dozen voltage multipliers in the works? Just a thought although ive never worked with them before so dont know much about them. just google it.

Originally posted by Shadow88

Hey guys,I've got an additional part of the solution to think about.There are about 5-6 motors that have been built,none of which have been able to produce any viable HP for work.Does anyone have any thoughts on constructing a low input-high output transmission or torque converter of some sort?If the motors meager output can be multiplied somehow,I think it would have better prospects for more research beyond our stage of engagement.

If the output cant be made suffiecient then what is the possibility of sticking several dozen voltage multipliers in the works? Just a thought although ive never worked with them before so dont know much about them. just google it.

Voltage multipliers probably would not be worth the effort.When you are producing electricity by any means you have to consider transmission of that power.The more devices you introduce into a distribution system,the more power you consume through the resistance created by these devices.Even the wires you use creates resistance.

What I am thinking of doing here is to build a device that will be suficient in energy created to run a generater of some sort.That generator will in turn charge a bank of batteries.That bank of batteries is what will supply electricity to whatever.If I can get one to work I will start by powering my new workshop with it.

The problem these motors seem to have is in generating sufficient torque to run or power another device.What I am trying to design right now is a way to build some type of torque converter to do just that.I have a lot of ideas running around in my head right now and I have not latched onto any one in particular.

Have you folks got any thought on the matter?

Maybe the energy is lost to magnetic cogging. Or maybe using bent iron wires between the N/S magnets on the outside since there is nothing that returns the flux between the magnets.

Afraid not.It is just the way it is.Laws of physics being what they are and all.Resistance is part of any electrical calculation.If we could build a really huge pmm we could overcome some of the torque issue,but then the motor would no longer be practical,nor affordable.

We need to find a way to change the energy expended by the rotation of the wheel or cylinder and turn it into a useable energy force to make this a viable device.

There are a great number of experimenters out there developing pmm devices and every one of them seem to face this same problem.I do not believe we can make a pmm to directly power any device such as an automobile or processing equipment but I do believe we can get one to generate enough power to run smaller items such as a generator.

The fellow that used a bicycle generator demonstrates this in practice.But the question is,can we make one do practical tasks?Personally,I would like to see this go beyond the novelty level,and contribute something viable to the advancment of the cause.

I hate to be a downer but i notice everyone seems to be overlooking what thousands that have tried this before have discovered. The nsnsns magnetic placement sounds good becuase of the opposing forces however at the same time you have the non opposing sides wanting to pull themselves together which again sounds great but it creates drag. The only reason these novelty motors work is the intial force given to get them going then decline and return kick in. As the motor spins the drag slows the initial speed further and further down until the motor stops. Any load on a motor such as this would speed this process up because it would increase the drag. Previous inventors relieased this and began to think about how they could eliminate this drag and in doing so they began experimenting with electromagnets because they could turn them on and off in a sequential order thus making the motor spin and eliminating the drag. However if you end up going down this road ill go ahead and tell you congradulations you have invented what is commonly referred to as a conventional motor.

As a kid ( as early as age 8 ) i too began looking into this aspect and i came up with this same wonderful design and i eventually started playing with electomagnets and it too lead me to the wonderful invention of a common day motor. ( I always told my dad i was born a few hundred years to late ) I even experimented with small hobby motors , such as the ones that used to come in the toy stompers ( google stomper for those of you to young or to old to know what im talking about ) Anyway if you hooked to stomper motors together and gave one an initial charge to start running then removed the charge the first motor would then continue to power the second. I thought i had discovered perpetual motion but this is when i learned about decline and return , in a short amount of time both motors eventually stopped.I will say this little experiment as a kid did later in life produce some useful knowledege becuase it taught me that most motors are also generators too depending on thier wrappings. An example of this being useful is my homemade phase converter used to give my machine shop 3 phase power out of normal old 220. Quite simply i took an old 5hp 3 phase motor and i get it spinning using a 110 motor , once its to speed i hit the motor with 220 and it starts running, once the 3 phase motor is running it starts generating a 3rd phase ( granted a slightly wild one ) From that generated 3rd phase i can run any smaller 3 phase motors such as the 3hp motor on my mill , but notice how the motors have to be smaller then the first motor this is again due to decline and return.

For those of you that still think im wrong and wish to keep trying i will say there is one thing ive noticed that all the other previous inventors seem to have over looked. The laws of decline and return are pretty simple , however at the same time even if you are loosing energy in one place your gaining it somewhere else. Energy never dissapears it just changes form , be it heat from friction or whatever the energy is still there its just in another form. When the energy is transformed it becomes useless in current designes however if one could figure out a way to utilize the converted energy then they might have something.

By the way the person with the design that needs something machined in order to finish there idea ill do it for you if you would like. If the idea looks feasible that is .............

Yes when getting the correct angles and spacing of the magnets it is fairly trail and error, but once you work it out, it should work fine. WHen i can be bothered to get some money ile build one.

That would be me. How do you send JPG's to people. I need to send one to you (for this) bargaindan, and shadow88.

-p

Originally posted by minniescar
By the way the person with the design that needs something machined in order to finish there idea ill do it for you if you would like. If the idea looks feasible that is .............

[edit on 15-8-2005 by postings]

minniescar is partly correct in the context of what he calls decline and return.Actually what he is talking about is sinusoidal decadence.This is part of the problem of resistence I mentioned earlier.Every reference I have been able to dig up on these pmms have the same problem.

I have an idea that I may work on later to overcome this to a partial extent but I doubt there is any real cure for it.

So,let me put it this wayI am not a scientist here so if anyone reads this and I am wrong or off base,please let me know.)

Magnetism is merely a field of energy created by concentrating matter in like patterns so that all particles are 'facing' the same way.This causes energy to be transmitted in a specific pattern.This energy flows in a constant flux.When that flux is interupted the energy produced in the flux can be carried away by whatever is interupting that flow.

For instance,say you were to make a coil of wire around a toilet paper roll and attach the two ends to a voltmeter.If you introduced a cylindrical magnet into the coil you would be introducing a magnetic field as well.In a stationary mode there would be no activity on the voltmeter.However,if you moved that magnet back and fourth the voltmeter would register a fluctuating voltage.

That voltage would go from tV- to tV+.Otherwise known as a sine wave.The resistance from many factors would cause the movement of that cylinder to become progressivly harder until it would take more work to produce voltage than the effort would be worth,thus causing the device to slow down and stop.

A pmm will work.There have been many built.One of them I read about ran for three years before stopping.So,building a pmm is not a real problem.The problem we need to solve is how do we build one that ctually provides a meaningful return,and is not just another toy.

This is a rather simplistic view of the project,but hey,I'm tired.I've been working all day.Gotta pay for all those magnets somehow.

All,
I am working on a magnet motor design that requires that I place magnets on half of a disk, and counterweights on the other half. Anyone know of a good place to find counterweights? OH!!!! Coins! NVM.

-P

All,
I was able to test out the following again with no success:

www.keelynet.com...

Giving it a slight whirl helps get it going, but it definitely doesn't stay going at all.

Having said that, I was thinking about something. Suppose I use mono-pole magnets for motors? Has anyone thought of doing this? Any ideas for how one might get something like this going?

-P

Mono pole magnets?

and....are you sure you have strong enough magnets? they should really be neodymium otherwise it wont likely be strong enough to spin itself no.