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NEWS: Classified Guantanamo Log Reveals Interrogation Techniques
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A classified Guantanamo Bay log detailing the interrogation of the man suspected of being the 20th 9-11 hijacker discloses some of the techniques used
to break detainees' resistance to interrogation. The document, cited in a Time magazine exclusive, describes techniques used on Mohammad al-Kahtani
such as sleep-deprivation, sexual and non-sexual humiliation, deprivation of toilet relief, denial of prayer, blasting with loud music, terrorization
by military dogs, and many others. It also details how Kahtani went on a hunger strike and later refused water
www.abc.net.au
Interrogators also played Christina Aguilera music to keep him from dozing off, Time said. Kahtani is thought to be the 20th September 11 hijacker.
The Pentagon described the document in Time as a "compromised classified interrogation log," and said it had notified appropriate congressional committees.
The logs - parts of which are incomplete - provide a detailed account of some of the measures used against a detainee at the prison, many of which have been harshly criticised by rights groups.
The logs detail how Kahtani was interrogated for 50 days from early November 2002 to early January 2003, during which 16 additional interrogation methods were approved by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
The Time article can be found here:
www.time.com...
If asked to log in, use 14089470650, [email protected]
An excerpt:
Al-Qahtani's resilience under pressure in the fall of 2002 led top officials at Gitmo to petition Washington for more muscular "counter resistance strategies." On Dec. 2, Rumsfeld approved 16 of 19 stronger coercive methods. Now the interrogators could use stress strategies like standing for prolonged periods, isolation for as long as 30 days, removal of clothing, forced shaving of facial hair, playing on "individual phobias" (such as dogs) and "mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing." According to the log, al-Qahtani experienced several of those over the next five weeks. The techniques Rumsfeld balked at included "use of a wet towel or dripping water to induce the misperception of suffocation." "Our Armed Forces are trained," a Pentagon memo on the changes read, "to a standard of interrogation that reflects a tradition of restraint." Nevertheless, the log shows that interrogators poured bottles of water on al-Qahtani's head when he refused to drink. Interrogators called this game "Drink Water or Wear It."
[...]
But a much more serious problem develops on Dec. 7: a medical corpsman reports that al-Qahtani is becoming seriously dehydrated, the result of his refusal to take water regularly. He is given an IV drip, and a doctor is summoned. An unprecedented 24-hour time out is called, but even as al-Qahtani is put under a doctor's care, music is played to "prevent detainee from sleeping." Nine hours later, a medical corpsman checks al-Qahtani's pulse and finds it "unusually slow." An electrocardiogram is administered by a doctor, and after al-Qahtani is transferred to a hospital, a CT scan is performed. A second doctor is consulted. Al-Qahtani's heartbeat is regular but slow: 35 beats a minute. He is placed in isolation and hooked up to a heart monitor.
[...]
The FBI letter said al-Qahtani had been "subjected to intense isolation for over three months" and "was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma (talking to non existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a cell covered with a sheet for hours on end)."
[...]
Over the next few days, al-Qahtani is subjected to a drill known as Invasion of Space by a Female, and he becomes especially agitated by the close physical presence of a woman. Then, around 2 p.m. on Dec. 6, comes another small breakthrough. He asks his handlers for some paper. "I will tell the truth," he says. "I am doing this to get out of here."
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
"I will tell the truth," he says. "I am doing this to get out of here."
The techniques revealed in the log straddle a fine line between interrogation and psychological - sometimes physical - torture. This statement by the interrogatee neatly shows why techniques such as these, in this case where the subject is given no respite over a period of several months, are of dubious value since the subject will eventually say anything to stop the interrogation.
Related News Links:
www.time.com
[edit on 2005/6/13 by wecomeinpeace]
www.abc.net.au
Interrogators also played Christina Aguilera music to keep him from dozing off, Time said. Kahtani is thought to be the 20th September 11 hijacker.
The Pentagon described the document in Time as a "compromised classified interrogation log," and said it had notified appropriate congressional committees.
The logs - parts of which are incomplete - provide a detailed account of some of the measures used against a detainee at the prison, many of which have been harshly criticised by rights groups.
The logs detail how Kahtani was interrogated for 50 days from early November 2002 to early January 2003, during which 16 additional interrogation methods were approved by US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
The Time article can be found here:
www.time.com...
If asked to log in, use 14089470650, [email protected]
An excerpt:
Al-Qahtani's resilience under pressure in the fall of 2002 led top officials at Gitmo to petition Washington for more muscular "counter resistance strategies." On Dec. 2, Rumsfeld approved 16 of 19 stronger coercive methods. Now the interrogators could use stress strategies like standing for prolonged periods, isolation for as long as 30 days, removal of clothing, forced shaving of facial hair, playing on "individual phobias" (such as dogs) and "mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing." According to the log, al-Qahtani experienced several of those over the next five weeks. The techniques Rumsfeld balked at included "use of a wet towel or dripping water to induce the misperception of suffocation." "Our Armed Forces are trained," a Pentagon memo on the changes read, "to a standard of interrogation that reflects a tradition of restraint." Nevertheless, the log shows that interrogators poured bottles of water on al-Qahtani's head when he refused to drink. Interrogators called this game "Drink Water or Wear It."
[...]
But a much more serious problem develops on Dec. 7: a medical corpsman reports that al-Qahtani is becoming seriously dehydrated, the result of his refusal to take water regularly. He is given an IV drip, and a doctor is summoned. An unprecedented 24-hour time out is called, but even as al-Qahtani is put under a doctor's care, music is played to "prevent detainee from sleeping." Nine hours later, a medical corpsman checks al-Qahtani's pulse and finds it "unusually slow." An electrocardiogram is administered by a doctor, and after al-Qahtani is transferred to a hospital, a CT scan is performed. A second doctor is consulted. Al-Qahtani's heartbeat is regular but slow: 35 beats a minute. He is placed in isolation and hooked up to a heart monitor.
[...]
The FBI letter said al-Qahtani had been "subjected to intense isolation for over three months" and "was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma (talking to non existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a cell covered with a sheet for hours on end)."
[...]
Over the next few days, al-Qahtani is subjected to a drill known as Invasion of Space by a Female, and he becomes especially agitated by the close physical presence of a woman. Then, around 2 p.m. on Dec. 6, comes another small breakthrough. He asks his handlers for some paper. "I will tell the truth," he says. "I am doing this to get out of here."
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
"I will tell the truth," he says. "I am doing this to get out of here."
The techniques revealed in the log straddle a fine line between interrogation and psychological - sometimes physical - torture. This statement by the interrogatee neatly shows why techniques such as these, in this case where the subject is given no respite over a period of several months, are of dubious value since the subject will eventually say anything to stop the interrogation.
www.usatoday.com
Techniques approved in December 2002 but apparently dropped in April 2003:
• Forced shaving of the beard or the head.
• Hooding during transport and interrogation.
• Interrogations for up to 20 hours.
• Use of mild, non-injurious contact.
• Stress positions, such as standing, for a maximum of four hours.
• Removing a detainee's clothing.
• Use of dogs to frighten a detainee.
Techniques proposed by Guantanamo interrogators but rejected by Rumsfeld in December 2002:
• The use of scenarios designed to convince a detainee that death or severely painful consequences are imminent for him or his family.
• Exposure to cold weather or cold water, with appropriate medical monitoring.
• Use of a wet towel and dripping water to induce the misperception of suffocation.
Full list of approved techniques as of 6/22/2004
Related News Links:
www.time.com
[edit on 2005/6/13 by wecomeinpeace]
In Gulf War 1 Coalition engineering troops bulldozed over Iraqi earthworks with soldiers still inside, so forces could advance fast enough to keep
Saddam off guard.
In the Pacific theatre of WWII, the flame thrower was used to attack earthenen positions and tunnels. Death in these cases was often by suffocation as the intense flame consumed the air. Soldiers who entered these to "mop up" would find their boots sticking to any hard flooring, the fats of the enemies' bodies boiled out by the heat. Few victims "burned" or even encountered direct contact with the flame.
My grandfather served in WWII and Korea as a Marine and witnessed the latter first hand quite a few times. His response to me at the brutality of the various Gulf War incidents: "they don't say 'war is hell" for no reason at all. it *is* hell."
The Media loves the ratings and drama and since the end of WWII and moreso in Vietnam and after, non-soldiers and uninvolved individuals are shown more of the situations of combat-but we're forgetting that we are not there. We're seeing more of how police handle a riot, from a safe helicopter's eye view. We see and hear about prison interrogations, mostly from the prisoners. And we see all this through someone else's interpretation, without the emotions and reactions and perceptions of actually being in those conditions and living that scene. We sit as "armchair generals" and think we can dictate how a soldier should have reacted when we get the luxury of seeing edited video from a different angle entirely.
Our soldiers did some pretty nasty stuff in Bosnia and other conflicts, and there have always been reports of UN-sponsored wars and multinational troops involved in abuses and atrocities-it's what militaries do, when confronted with the savageries of combat. Interrogations in the field were acceptable then, but now the Media seems to find even the concept of playing music too loud or too long to be unacceptable. Now it's not. The only difference being the "R" on the CIC's party checklist instead of a "D".
War is hell. Get in it to win it, or get out. Metering the brutality to keep things "civilized" especially when your enemy does not, prolongs the conflict and increases the amount of evil done. The Media needs to get back to reporting, not attempting to make policy and manipulate public opinion to it's own ends.
In the Pacific theatre of WWII, the flame thrower was used to attack earthenen positions and tunnels. Death in these cases was often by suffocation as the intense flame consumed the air. Soldiers who entered these to "mop up" would find their boots sticking to any hard flooring, the fats of the enemies' bodies boiled out by the heat. Few victims "burned" or even encountered direct contact with the flame.
My grandfather served in WWII and Korea as a Marine and witnessed the latter first hand quite a few times. His response to me at the brutality of the various Gulf War incidents: "they don't say 'war is hell" for no reason at all. it *is* hell."
The Media loves the ratings and drama and since the end of WWII and moreso in Vietnam and after, non-soldiers and uninvolved individuals are shown more of the situations of combat-but we're forgetting that we are not there. We're seeing more of how police handle a riot, from a safe helicopter's eye view. We see and hear about prison interrogations, mostly from the prisoners. And we see all this through someone else's interpretation, without the emotions and reactions and perceptions of actually being in those conditions and living that scene. We sit as "armchair generals" and think we can dictate how a soldier should have reacted when we get the luxury of seeing edited video from a different angle entirely.
Our soldiers did some pretty nasty stuff in Bosnia and other conflicts, and there have always been reports of UN-sponsored wars and multinational troops involved in abuses and atrocities-it's what militaries do, when confronted with the savageries of combat. Interrogations in the field were acceptable then, but now the Media seems to find even the concept of playing music too loud or too long to be unacceptable. Now it's not. The only difference being the "R" on the CIC's party checklist instead of a "D".
War is hell. Get in it to win it, or get out. Metering the brutality to keep things "civilized" especially when your enemy does not, prolongs the conflict and increases the amount of evil done. The Media needs to get back to reporting, not attempting to make policy and manipulate public opinion to it's own ends.
You're exactly right... The media would have us believe that the interrogation techniques at Gitmo are 'abuse'... For my money, they're no where
near harsh enough... These people have killed Americans, plotted against America and her allies...
Dripping water on someone's head isn't exactly torture... it might be mildly annoying but torture??? Nope...
Would the bleeding hearts prefer that we turn the prisoners over to other countries whose hands aren't tied when it comes to interrogation techniques??? I understand the Egyptians have a number of techniques that are quited successful... and painful...
Dripping water on someone's head isn't exactly torture... it might be mildly annoying but torture??? Nope...
Would the bleeding hearts prefer that we turn the prisoners over to other countries whose hands aren't tied when it comes to interrogation techniques??? I understand the Egyptians have a number of techniques that are quited successful... and painful...
There's no explanation that I found explaining how, where, or from who this classified log came from. I would think we'd have learned to distrust
uncorroborated information leaked to a news source, especially one which leans to the left as Time does. The only explanation I found in the article
was:
Obtained by TIME how, and by whom? Every time they reference someone, a source or document, it is an unnamed source unless they're talking to the terrorists. The entire premise seems based on a 3 legged stool missing a leg, as the draft memo was, as the flushing of the Koran article was. They got information they wanted, and ran with it.
I'm going to wait for some verification before biting into this latest media accusation against the Bush administration and our military.
So in late November 2002, according to an 84-page secret interrogation log obtained by TIME, al-Qahtani's questioners switched gears.
Obtained by TIME how, and by whom? Every time they reference someone, a source or document, it is an unnamed source unless they're talking to the terrorists. The entire premise seems based on a 3 legged stool missing a leg, as the draft memo was, as the flushing of the Koran article was. They got information they wanted, and ran with it.
I'm going to wait for some verification before biting into this latest media accusation against the Bush administration and our military.
Phugedaboutit:
? So in other words, you need to be brutal in war so as not to prolong the conflict? Is there any differentiation if you STARTED the war, or is it just a basic rule? NOT keeping things civilized increases the amount of evil done.
Aren't you supposed to be the good guys? Torturing people who are ACCUSED of terrorism? That seems a little Nazi-like, no?
Guantanomo is TRAINING a whole bunch of people to hate the United States. Nobody has been charged with a crime there AT ALL yet. It's a prison camp, totalitarian-style.
As for the media, what a joke. They should get back to reporting and not try to manipulate public opinion? LOL!
Yeah, they should be reporting on some blonde chick in Aruba who is kidnapped, who nobody gives a crap about. Or find out MORE about Michael Jackson! Or hey, what about poor Lindsey Lohan and her weight problem?
This Guantanomo business is precisely what the media should be reporting on. 5 years from now when you're travelling abroad and you are spat on and called a Nazi, you will know why. 20 years from now when your children are unable to travel out of the country for fear of being killed, you will know why.
So either educate yourself about it, or explain to your kids in a few years why you just kind of ignored it.
CTO:
Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot you're aghast. HOW could these Iraqis capture and kill Americans? How could they hate you so much.
That sentence you just said is why. You seem to believe that your American lives are worth more somehow than these people's. I don't know if it's racist or just ignorance, but it's pathetic.
You SHOULD be hated for having such a silly, simplistic attitude toward the value of life of your fellow human beings. And you will be.
jako
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]
Metering the brutality to keep things "civilized" especially when your enemy does not, prolongs the conflict and increases the amount of evil done. The Media needs to get back to reporting, not attempting to make policy and manipulate public opinion to it's own ends.
? So in other words, you need to be brutal in war so as not to prolong the conflict? Is there any differentiation if you STARTED the war, or is it just a basic rule? NOT keeping things civilized increases the amount of evil done.
Aren't you supposed to be the good guys? Torturing people who are ACCUSED of terrorism? That seems a little Nazi-like, no?
Guantanomo is TRAINING a whole bunch of people to hate the United States. Nobody has been charged with a crime there AT ALL yet. It's a prison camp, totalitarian-style.
As for the media, what a joke. They should get back to reporting and not try to manipulate public opinion? LOL!
Yeah, they should be reporting on some blonde chick in Aruba who is kidnapped, who nobody gives a crap about. Or find out MORE about Michael Jackson! Or hey, what about poor Lindsey Lohan and her weight problem?
This Guantanomo business is precisely what the media should be reporting on. 5 years from now when you're travelling abroad and you are spat on and called a Nazi, you will know why. 20 years from now when your children are unable to travel out of the country for fear of being killed, you will know why.
So either educate yourself about it, or explain to your kids in a few years why you just kind of ignored it.
CTO:
For my money, they're no where near harsh enough... These people have killed Americans, plotted against America and her allies.
Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot you're aghast. HOW could these Iraqis capture and kill Americans? How could they hate you so much.
That sentence you just said is why. You seem to believe that your American lives are worth more somehow than these people's. I don't know if it's racist or just ignorance, but it's pathetic.
You SHOULD be hated for having such a silly, simplistic attitude toward the value of life of your fellow human beings. And you will be.
jako
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]
>>Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot you're aghast. HOW could these Iraqis capture and kill Americans? How could they hate you so much.
That sentence you just said is why. You seem to believe that your American lives are worth more somehow than these people's. I don't know if it's racist or just ignorance, but it's pathetic.
You SHOULD be hated for having such a silly, simplistic attitude toward the value of life of your fellow human beings. And you will be.
That sentence you just said is why. You seem to believe that your American lives are worth more somehow than these people's. I don't know if it's racist or just ignorance, but it's pathetic.
You SHOULD be hated for having such a silly, simplistic attitude toward the value of life of your fellow human beings. And you will be.
Originally posted by Jakomo
? So in other words, you need to be brutal in war so as not to prolong the conflict? Is there any differentiation if you STARTED the war, or is it just a basic rule? NOT keeping things civilized increases the amount of evil done.
Aren't you supposed to be the good guys? Torturing people who are ACCUSED of terrorism? That seems a little Nazi-like, no?
Those people who are detained in Guantanamo are enemy combatants, they were fighting against the coalition or helping the insurgents in one way or another...if they were only regular innocent Iraqi people there would be more Iraqis in Guantanamo.
Originally posted by Jakomo
Guantanomo is TRAINING a whole bunch of people to hate the United States. Nobody has been charged with a crime there AT ALL yet. It's a prison camp, totalitarian-style.
Those people were already fighting and hating the US before they were in Guantanamo, they are there for one reason, because they were part of the insurgency and were fighting against the coalition forces.
Originally posted by Jakomo
This Guantanomo business is precisely what the media should be reporting on. 5 years from now when you're travelling abroad and you are spat on and called a Nazi, you will know why. 20 years from now when your children are unable to travel out of the country for fear of being killed, you will know why.
So either educate yourself about it, or explain to your kids in a few years why you just kind of ignored it.
perhaps you should be the one to educate yourself instead of spewing this hatred you obviously have for american citizens and which you are trying to spread in that BS comment of yours. There are people from all over the world who are being targeted by islamic extremists, and it has nothing to do with the war, this has been ongoing for a long while now....
Originally posted by Jakomo
Funny how when the shoe is on the other foot you're aghast. HOW could these Iraqis capture and kill Americans? How could they hate you so much.
That sentence you just said is why. You seem to believe that your American lives are worth more somehow than these people's. I don't know if it's racist or just ignorance, but it's pathetic.
You SHOULD be hated for having such a silly, simplistic attitude toward the value of life of your fellow human beings. And you will be.
jako
The hatred by Islamic extremists against the west is nothing new...and it is happening even as we speak in France and Germany...two of the countries that were against the war in Iraq...
Perhaps you should ask yourself why islamic extremists have been attacking and trying to make major attacks in these countries too, as they did in 9/11 in the US and 3/11 in Spain...along some others countries that also have the same problem with Islamic extremists.
Perhaps some day you will wake up from your racism against Americans, and realize what is happening in the world. The problem is Islamic extremists in the world, and their movement to have the world being ruled and submissive to Islam.
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Muaddib]
Interigation is not about peoples feelings, its about getting the information you desire.
Also "good" along with "bad" is a point of view and people forget this, personally i don't believe any side is good or bad (tecnically good and bad don't exist, its just a state of mind/belief i believe) our countries do what is in THEIR best intrests. (not nessecerally the peoples)
The government is a business, along with the organizations who support that business, and since the western world is capitalist, then its in the western government's best intrests to generate capital, while at the same time protecting its intrests.
However on the good or bad issue i believe that i would prefer my countrys way of life and society as it is.
If i was in the another country other than my own i would be treated second rate, if i was not of any significant importance to them (such as an Ambasetor or so)
A Lot of people in the West seem to forget that their are other ways of life, a lot different from their own.
Also with the Nazi thing, if it was spat then maby they should be remined that they would also be Nazi's (or most likley, decided that they did not have the right to live for them) if it was not for the intervention of the US, Russia, Great Britian and the British comonweath along with several other countries.
In regards to the Nazi's spitting remark, these people whos countrys were under Nazi control welcome you when you come to liberate them from their opressors, they were greatful yet their children forget, i can tell you now i believe that they would rather live in their societys they live in now and are accustomed to than some new one due to believing that all societys reflect eachother and have similar rules, because they don't.
War is not about whos right, its about whos left.
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Crash]
Also "good" along with "bad" is a point of view and people forget this, personally i don't believe any side is good or bad (tecnically good and bad don't exist, its just a state of mind/belief i believe) our countries do what is in THEIR best intrests. (not nessecerally the peoples)
The government is a business, along with the organizations who support that business, and since the western world is capitalist, then its in the western government's best intrests to generate capital, while at the same time protecting its intrests.
However on the good or bad issue i believe that i would prefer my countrys way of life and society as it is.
If i was in the another country other than my own i would be treated second rate, if i was not of any significant importance to them (such as an Ambasetor or so)
A Lot of people in the West seem to forget that their are other ways of life, a lot different from their own.
Also with the Nazi thing, if it was spat then maby they should be remined that they would also be Nazi's (or most likley, decided that they did not have the right to live for them) if it was not for the intervention of the US, Russia, Great Britian and the British comonweath along with several other countries.
In regards to the Nazi's spitting remark, these people whos countrys were under Nazi control welcome you when you come to liberate them from their opressors, they were greatful yet their children forget, i can tell you now i believe that they would rather live in their societys they live in now and are accustomed to than some new one due to believing that all societys reflect eachother and have similar rules, because they don't.
War is not about whos right, its about whos left.
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Crash]
CTO:
It's not Iraqis who carpetbombed Baghdad, a city of 4 million (Shock & Awe = Terrorizing a Civilian Population.
It's not Iraqis who abused and humiliated prisoners in Abu Ghraib before letting most of them go without any charges being laid.
It IS Americans and Brits who are responsible for the embargos that killed over 500,000 Iraqis since 1991, mostly children.
It IS Americans who have raped and pillaged the Iraqi economy since Day One of the Illegal Occupation.
It IS Americans who refuse to report civilian casualties in Iraq because "we don't do body counts" (except of course when it's "suspected militants"), thus implying these civilian lives are irrelevant.
All true. But you supported the Taliban AND Saddam for many years when it was in your best interest to do so (see also Suharto, Pol Pot, Noriega, etc).
Ah, the old faithful "America saved Europe in WWII" line. Read a book. Russia and the UK did far more than you did. You only came in after 1941 after you were directly attacked, so spare me. If Pearl Harbor hadn't happened, your country would have been happily speaking German right now if it meant profit.
Drag Canada's butt out of a tight spot? LMAO! Yeah, I'll hold my breath over that one.
Muaddib:
Yeah, I'm sure it's that simple. They're bad guys and you're good guys. They hate freedom and you love life. How Dr. Seussian. Wake up.
jako
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]
It's not Americans who are cutting the heads off civilians, burning them alive and hanging their corpses from bridges... It's not Americans who are using IEDs and car bombs to murder innocent Iraqi women and children and to kill Iraqis who volunteer for their country's police force or military...
It's not Iraqis who carpetbombed Baghdad, a city of 4 million (Shock & Awe = Terrorizing a Civilian Population.
It's not Iraqis who abused and humiliated prisoners in Abu Ghraib before letting most of them go without any charges being laid.
It's not Americans who diverted the funds from the 'oil for food' program and caused hundreds or perhaps thousands of Iraqis to starve... It's not Americans who used biological weapons against their own citizens... It's not Americans who dragged women off to rape rooms and torture chambers...
It IS Americans and Brits who are responsible for the embargos that killed over 500,000 Iraqis since 1991, mostly children.
It IS Americans who have raped and pillaged the Iraqi economy since Day One of the Illegal Occupation.
It IS Americans who refuse to report civilian casualties in Iraq because "we don't do body counts" (except of course when it's "suspected militants"), thus implying these civilian lives are irrelevant.
It IS Americans and our allies who freed the Kuwaitis from military occupation by Saddam... It IS Americans and our allies who freed the Afghanis from the oppression of the Talaban... It IS Americans and our allies who brought Saddam down and provided an opportunity for a free, democratic Iraq...
All true. But you supported the Taliban AND Saddam for many years when it was in your best interest to do so (see also Suharto, Pol Pot, Noriega, etc).
It IS Americans and our allies who rid the world of the Nazi threat and kept you from having to wear a swastika arm band, I suspect...
Ah, the old faithful "America saved Europe in WWII" line. Read a book. Russia and the UK did far more than you did. You only came in after 1941 after you were directly attacked, so spare me. If Pearl Harbor hadn't happened, your country would have been happily speaking German right now if it meant profit.
Say what you want about my country but I'll guarantee you that we will never back down in the face of oppression, we will not capitualte...
Hate as all you want but remember your words when next we have to drag your butts out of a tight spot...
Drag Canada's butt out of a tight spot? LMAO! Yeah, I'll hold my breath over that one.
Muaddib:
Perhaps some day you will wake up from your racism against Americans, and realize what is happening in the world. The problem is Islamic extremists in the world, and their movement to have the world being ruled and submissive to Islam.
Yeah, I'm sure it's that simple. They're bad guys and you're good guys. They hate freedom and you love life. How Dr. Seussian. Wake up.
jako
[edit on 14-6-2005 by Jakomo]
Thats it? thats all! those torture tatics are a bit too light don't you think... and people think this is harsh lol, this is nothing!!! making them
listen to load horrible music is not torture for god sake! We should get them back in time, to WWII and to nazi germany and they will know what
torture is really is.. like someone said war is hell, war is not goodly goodly. considering how they are treated it is pretty light...
>>It's not Iraqis who carpetbombed Baghdad, a city of 4 million (Shock & Awe = Terrorizing a Civilian Population
Originally posted by Muaddib
Those people who are detained in Guantanamo are enemy combatants, they were fighting against the coalition or helping the insurgents in one way or another
If they are enemy combatants, then according to the Geneva Conventions, they should of been released when hostilities ended.
May 2, 2003
Bush, addressing the nation not from the White House but from the dramatic setting of the nuclear-powered aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, announced: "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended."
CNN: Bush: Iraq is One Victory In War On Terror
You cannot legally detain enemy combatants after the War has ended unless you charge them with a war crime. Until the law changes or the U.S pulls out of the Geneva conventions the actions in Abu Graib and Guantanamo are illegal.
It is not illegal to fight an invading army. They are legally allowed to be detained for the duration of the War but have to be released when the War ends.
Originally posted by Muaddib
Those people were already fighting and hating the US before they were in Guantanamo, they are there for one reason, because they were part of the insurgency and were fighting against the coalition forces.
Its also not illegal to "hate" the United States of America.
Originally posted by Muaddib
Perhaps you should ask yourself why islamic extremists have been attacking and trying to make major attacks in these countries too, as they did in 9/11 in the US and 3/11 in Spain...along some others countries that also have the same problem with Islamic extremists.
Maybe there is some cause for the ill will they feel for the West. Maybe it is you that should ask yourself why these people are going to such extremes.
[edit on 14/6/05 by subz]
Jakomo:
like someone said, if we carpetbombed baghdad, there will be no baghdad to go into... ever heard of smart bombs?
And you think that the embargos is all the americans and brits fault? why not ask saddam, saddam bring it to the iraqi people...
What Americans give can also be taken away. also when we aided the taliban they were in war with the soviets and you know that US and the soviets were enemies. you should be happy that the US bring down the fall of the soviet union.
Germany could never defeated the US... why? they got a big ocean to cross, and mexico and canada is not letting germany to have troops there... And why would americans be speaking germany? do you really think that germnay in WWII can defeat the US...? and it was a UK and russian war, not a US war... after all, hitler attack UK and Russia not the US. And you think americans are that greedy? sell the entire country out for profit? do germany even have the money or enough money to buy the whole US? don't think so, and since you said you are a canadian, if the US will be speaking german then Canada will be as well.
Cause you know the US will be running to your recuse if it does happen, what ever that tight spot is...
If they do love life(the terrorist)... they wouldn't blow themselves up now would they?
[edit on 14-6-2005 by ulshadow]
It's not Iraqis who carpetbombed Baghdad, a city of 4 million (Shock & Awe = Terrorizing a Civilian Population.
like someone said, if we carpetbombed baghdad, there will be no baghdad to go into... ever heard of smart bombs?
It IS Americans and Brits who are responsible for the embargos that killed over 500,000 Iraqis since 1991, mostly children.
It IS Americans who have raped and pillaged the Iraqi economy since Day One of the Illegal Occupation.
It IS Americans who refuse to report civilian casualties in Iraq because "we don't do body counts" (except of course when it's "suspected militants"), thus implying these civilian lives are irrelevant.
And you think that the embargos is all the americans and brits fault? why not ask saddam, saddam bring it to the iraqi people...
All true. But you supported the Taliban AND Saddam for many years when it was in your best interest to do so (see also Suharto, Pol Pot, Noriega, etc).
What Americans give can also be taken away. also when we aided the taliban they were in war with the soviets and you know that US and the soviets were enemies. you should be happy that the US bring down the fall of the soviet union.
Ah, the old faithful "America saved Europe in WWII" line. Read a book. Russia and the UK did far more than you did. You only came in after 1941 after you were directly attacked, so spare me. If Pearl Harbor hadn't happened, your country would have been happily speaking German right now if it meant profit.
Germany could never defeated the US... why? they got a big ocean to cross, and mexico and canada is not letting germany to have troops there... And why would americans be speaking germany? do you really think that germnay in WWII can defeat the US...? and it was a UK and russian war, not a US war... after all, hitler attack UK and Russia not the US. And you think americans are that greedy? sell the entire country out for profit? do germany even have the money or enough money to buy the whole US? don't think so, and since you said you are a canadian, if the US will be speaking german then Canada will be as well.
Drag Canada's butt out of a tight spot? LMAO! Yeah, I'll hold my breath over that one.
Cause you know the US will be running to your recuse if it does happen, what ever that tight spot is...
Yeah, I'm sure it's that simple. They're bad guys and you're good guys. They hate freedom and you love life. How Dr. Seussian. Wake up.
If they do love life(the terrorist)... they wouldn't blow themselves up now would they?
[edit on 14-6-2005 by ulshadow]
Youve got to be kidding me. Why the hell is the media trying to portray Gitmo as Auschwitz? This is far from torture. The Al Qaedas laugh as we are
raked over the coals for what must be some of the best treatment of terrorists anywhere. Koran abuse? Who cares. This is the most blatant attempt to
make something out of nothing ive seen the media do in a long long time. The wine! Its not chilled its room temperature! This is torture! Somebody get
Amnesty International!
Time Warp
Hostilities have not ended.
Originally posted by subz
If they are enemy combatants, then according to the Geneva Conventions, they should of been released when hostilities ended.
Hostilities have not ended.
Majic wrote
Hostilities have not ended.
I pity the poor sods who do end up as prisoners of war in the War on Terrorism, because by President Bush's repeated statements to that effect, and by the intrinsic nature of being at war with an "-ism", this war will never end. And so these peculiarly unlucky P.O.W.O.T's will remain prisoners until they are released/executed/die, or until that 9-letter, Hydra-like noun is wiped off the face of the Earth.
Maybe they should have chosen an "-ology", I hear -ologies are easier to destroy.
Techniques approved in December 2002 but apparently dropped in April 2003:
• Forced shaving of the beard or the head.
• Hooding during transport and interrogation.
• Interrogations for up to 20 hours.
• Use of mild, non-injurious contact.
• Stress positions, such as standing, for a maximum of four hours.
• Removing a detainee's clothing.
• Use of dogs to frighten a detainee.
This isn't torture. With the exception of the dogs and the hoods (neither or which constitute torture by a sane definition) these are all techniques I personally faced while joining a fraternity in college.
i know, keep telling people this is not torture!!! putting cold water on you is not torture! i do it all the time when i shower! i shower with cold
water cause it's so dam hot here in the summer lol
Originally posted by Majic
Hostilities have not ended.
In Afghanistan and Iraq the hostilities have ended. These people are being held as enemy combatants. They are not being charged with crimes because they are enemy combatants that fought the invading U.S army. When that War ended (which it has) then they should all be released.
If they were not enemy combatants and were terrorists then they can/should be held but CHARGED. We are not meant to be supporting the indefinate detention of human beings! This isnt some tin pot back water regime. Its the United States of America!
You cant have it both ways, they people are either enemy combatants or terrorists. Enemy combatants should be released when this war did end, terrorists should be charged with a crime.
Originally posted by ulshadow
i know, keep telling people this is not torture!!! putting cold water on you is not torture! i do it all the time when i shower! i shower with cold water cause it's so dam hot here in the summer lol
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
Collective punishment for individual acts, corporal punishments, imprisonment in premises without daylight and, in general, any form of torture or cruelty, are forbidden.
The treatment including water dripping on the forehead, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation and abuse, having dogs set upon them and stress positions ARE CRUEL.
No amount of glossing over this can change the reality of the sanctioned abuse at Guantanamo. Its illegal and breaks the Geneva Conventions. Im sure Togo felt the treatment of Allied soldiers in SE Asia was not torture or cruel either
We'll see people arrested for this behaviour from the upper echelons of the American government. It wont be for years yet but it will happen.
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