The Mind Dimension

Oh no, this is what I like, ideas stemming into ideas and so on. This is all very interesting though, that's the wonderful thing about this site, it brings all of these brilliant minds together. So, by all means on with it

Originally posted by Raideur
Dreams have no purpose.

Wrong. Flat wrong.

Raideur, you mentioned something earlier about chemicals........

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Since the body is really an ongoing series of chemical reactions, it would stand to reason that dreams are the sensory perceptions associated with these chemical reactions. As associated experience is assimilated over a lifetime, dreams can get complex in their presentations........I'm still trying to figure out how to word this.......

www.belowtopsecret.com...

Dreams are an evolved physiological process; everyone dreams. The amount of attention you give your dreams is a good way to learn how to be more expressive...

I recommend looking into 'Lucid Dreaming'.......just google it and see what you come up with.......

Rational topic on dreams, congrads MemoryShock.

This conversation of dreams will be the end of my stoic defense of the rational human mind, I can predict fairly well.
It would figure that the only gap I cant explain becomes the focus of this topic. However, I will not give in! I remain confident that dreams are nothing more that an unimportant trick of the imagination simply to occupy the mind from the day to day logic processing.

This is going to lead directly into "what is the imagination" so I will race ahead and put up a roadblock.

The imagination seems to be a human trait that allows us to create elaborate ideas in our mind and interact with them. I would say most of the time, it is kept from running our mind completely by the higher level logic processing and the low level "Id" simply to keep us rational and productive. Dreams seem to be the time in which it takes over and we get totally bizzare worlds that are the accumulation of our emotional wishes and various sensory input from the past. This implies that it dreams serve no function other than letting the higher level logic rest and allow ourselves to be released in a unconcious state.

I am proud to say that I rarely dream and if I do, I make it a point to forget them. They are more of distrations than releases and thanks to the great deal of adaptability of the brain, I would say that one could function without them.

Besides, who wants to live life constantly being reminded of some horribly embarassing moment or that love you'll never have while you rest? Or rather, live in a wonderful rainbow world that doesnt exist. It just teases your higher level logic to pieces.

Im going to get flak for this, but I am prepared to defend my position.

Originally posted by Raideur
Rational topic on dreams, congrads MemoryShock.

Thank you.....

Originally posted by Raideur
This implies that it dreams serve no function other than letting the higher level logic rest and allow ourselves to be released in a unconcious state.

Not entirely true.....The function of dreams is to strengthen the connections made earlier in the day........the brain is like a sponge, soaking up all data in the real world, even peripherals. The brain releases a certain chemical at night, beyond melatonin, that helps to 'make permanent' reactions that recently occured.......in the course of a day, the brain is stimulated by it's perception of it's environment and either creates a new 'file'(mostly an infant trait), or adds it to pre-existing 'files.' That is why you can drive a fairly complex route without thinking about it too much.......dreams are a very important physiological process, otherwise we would have to relearn everything, day after day, after day........

Originally posted by Raideur
I am proud to say that I rarely dream and if I do, I make it a point to forget them. They are more of distrations than releases and thanks to the great deal of adaptability of the brain, I would say that one could function without them.

Proud to say? Eh, your choice.....but you should amend your statement to say you rarely recall them........and one cannot function without them......one can function without conscious awareness of them, however, this would be reactive human personality who never questions anything........

Originally posted by Raideur
Besides, who wants to live life constantly being reminded of some horribly embarassing moment or that love you'll never have while you rest? Or rather, live in a wonderful rainbow world that doesnt exist. It just teases your higher level logic to pieces.

Sure, with that attitude, who would even want to live life?
Of course, with practice, you can make dreaming a valuable tool, practing social confidence without the real life reality of consequence........

Originally posted by Raideur
Im going to get flak for this, but I am prepared to defend my position.

Defend away.......

Originally posted by Raideur
I am disturbed by the idea that normal thinknig can be clouded by something, be it booze or love. Everything must make sense.

Your disturbed? That's an emotion.
Everything MUST make sense? Sounds emotional.

Logic is a concept of our own creation. It's a concept used to help us understand everything and put up limits, in order to create an order and balance in all of our minds.

It's a concept like any other. It's not even close to being everything and anything in life.

Logic helps us to keep order in our minds and live a life without insanity. This is what makes it a good thing.

It's a good thing most of the time, but it's not EVERYTHING.

I must say i'm more on MemoryShock's side on this one. Freud's theory was basically, dreams are representations of our suppressed thoughts and desires that we can't express normally. So I agree that dreams are important to teach us about ourselves and they can help us find better ways to come at certain situations in the real world.

However! In a lot of cases dreams are just completely weird. There are certain places and people that will interpret your dreams for you claiming to know what certain things stand for, but there is no way they can no what particular things mean in your mind.

I don't see how Freud's theory can be correct when people may have dreams where they are killed. So do these people long to be killed and they are just too shy to let anyone know?

I have to take the side of Hobson and McCarley over Freud who say dreams are the result of nerve signals sent out during REM sleep and are just random images.


Another little unrelated thing.. is there any particular reason for that thing that happens when you have a dream and when you wake up it's in your head and you can picture it but you just can't seem to say it or explain it at all. Its really weird because you can see it and remember certain things but you just can not say it for some reason. But maybe its just me!!

I am still trying to know what are these chemicals that the brain releases...

Name at least one...with references...

Originally posted by mwen
I am still trying to know what are these chemicals that the brain releases...

Name at least one...with references...

im not sure if this is quite what you want but here.

Nerve-signaling chemicals called neurotransmitters control whether we are asleep or awake by acting on different groups of nerve cells, or neurons, in the brain. Neurons in the brainstem, which connects the brain with the spinal cord, produce neurotransmitters such as serotonin and norepinephrine that keep some parts of the brain active while we are awake. Other neurons at the base of the brain begin signaling when we fall asleep. These neurons appear to "switch off" the signals that keep us awake. Research also suggests that a chemical called adenosine builds up in our blood while we are awake and causes drowsiness. This chemical gradually breaks down while we sleep.

www.ninds.nih.gov...

brain.web-us.com...

Yes. During REM protein-synthesis is highly active, so your body needs high levels of amino
acids. The neurotransmitter in use during REM is Acetylcholine. It is made from the B-vitamin
Choline and the vitamin B-5.

But there are more vitamins that can make us dream more. The body can synthesis the B-vitamin
Choline. But in order to do that it needs vitamin B-12, Folic acid (B-9), the amino acids
Methionine and Serine. Vitamins B-12 plays a role in the activation of amino acids during
protein formation. It has also the ability to increase the production of Acetylcholine and
normalize neurotransmissions in the brain.

Vitamin B-6 is another important vitamin. It is a co-enzyme, which participates in over 60
enzymatic reactions involved in the metabolism of amino acids. It is involved in the production
of several body proteins and neurotransmitters. It is particularly indispensable to the action
of amino acid neurotransmitters, like Serotonin, Dopamine, Melatonin, and Norepinephrine, which
effect brain function. It is also involved in the metabolism of Selenium, Calcium, and
Magnesium.

Melatonin is a neurotransmitter/hormone that is only active during sleep. It is being
metabolized when you fall asleep from Serotonin, a neurotransmitter that is being metabolized
from the amino acid Tryptophan. Melatonin increases non-REM sleep and makes it easier for you
to fall asleep. But it has also an interesting rebound effect that gives more frequent and
vivid dreams. The vividness might even give you a lucid dream.
The Kava Kava root, a traditional drug from the Polynesian islands, is little known but highly
recommendable. It is said to take away stress and tension, very mildly tranquilizing while clearing
and sharpening thoughts. Also told to help dreaming, especially for lucid dreaming exercises.
From my own experience, it causes a deeper but shorter sleep with more intense dreams.

The amino acid Tryptophan can be metabolized into Serotonin and Niacin (B-3). Vitamin B-6
promotes this conversion. Taking Niacin or Nicotine patches will increase the Serotonin
production. The more Niacin you take, the more Serotonin is produced and more Melatonin is
metabolized. Calcium and Magnesium promotes Serotonin production as well. Zinc is in every cell
of the body and is a part of over 200 enzymes, so Zinc supplements may increase REM-sleep, too.

DMAE (Dimethylaminoethanol) is a very important B-vitamin. It flows easily through the brain's
blood barrier, where it is converted into Choline. During REM, Choline is added the coenzyme A
(Vitamin B-5), and we have Acetylcholine, the neurotransmitter in use during REM.
5-HTP (5-Hydroxy-TryptoPhan) is a Serotonin precursor that also flows quite easy through the
brain's blood barrier. It is a good alternative to Melatonin.

Vitamin C helps metabolizing several amino acids and hormones. It is also important to have
adequate levels of amino acids. A few important ones are Phenylalanine, Tyrosine, Methionine,
Cysteine, Serine and Tryptophan.

A basic look at some of the chemical interplays in our brain during sleep and how our conscious ingestants can affect these interactions.

Also, there may be symbols that can be interpreted universally, but for the most part, I would distrust anyone who says they know what your dreams mean. Dreams are a personal interpretation and synthesis of your experiences and as such, the only real authority is you. My suggestion.......learn more so that you are comfortable with your opinions. The link at the top is a very good start......I never had it so easy...

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Also, there may be symbols that can be interpreted universally, but for the most part, I would distrust anyone who says they know what your dreams mean. Dreams are a personal interpretation and synthesis of your experiences and as such, the only real authority is you...

Not necessarly true...

there are dream patterns that can be logically define...and that people seem to dream similarly about these patterns...

Question:
How many of you have ever dream where one's teeth seem to break down into pieces for apperently no reason...?

Originally posted by mwen

Originally posted by MemoryShock
Also, there may be symbols that can be interpreted universally[snip]

the only real authority is you...

Not necessarly true...

Not necassarily true, indeed, but a good mindset to have at the onset of any personal endeavor....

[edit on 16-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 16-6-2005 by MemoryShock]

For something so vital to our existance, why would they follow such an irrational and fantasy-like path while we sleep? Our instincts, the Id, is a very simple and logical system as well as our normal thinking. Why does these dreams have no coherent pattern or obvious cause for them? Are we really that crazy, or fantasizing, or insane as we seem to be during a dream...?

and one cannot function without them

Why not?

Sure, with that attitude, who would even want to live life?

I would like to live knowing I am in control of myself. Dreams are not under your control, nor are emotions, and thus seem somewhat disturbing.

Originally posted by Raideur
For something so vital to our existance, why would they follow such an irrational and fantasy-like path while we sleep? Our instincts, the Id, is a very simple and logical system as well as our normal thinking. Why does these dreams have no coherent pattern or obvious cause for them? Are we really that crazy, or fantasizing, or insane as we seem to be during a dream...?

Actually, after a bit of concentration and much time, I started to recognize a logical process. The human brain, i.e. learning, operates on the concept of association. If you have an experience with a loved one, for example, and had a particular reaction, then that reaction may become subtly manifested when you encounter someone who reminds you of that loved one..........now you have two events that are connected to each over based in similarity, rather than an explicit a=b=c connection......which is why you can dream about something from 10 years ago and have it intermingled with current events regardless of conscious understanding

Originally quoted by Raideur
why not?

Physically impossible........everyone has the genetic hardwire.....if you really need to test this.....have someone you know watch for REM signs in your sleep patterns after researching the physical signs of it with them.

Originally posted by Raideur
I would like to live knowing I am in control of myself. Dreams are not under your control, nor are emotions, and thus seem somewhat disturbing.

You can learn to control yourself......granted, life is a series of reactions that are to some degree pre-determined by previous experiences. Have you ever heard of the yogis or monks who had such a conscious control of their body as to be able to exert influence on the autonomic functioning of their heartbeat? They were just men and they started with an understanding of why they did what they did, why they felt the way they did in response to various stimuliis.........all you really need is an inquisitive mind and a sense of responsibility........

You may find this amusing, but several of my friends have used a very Freudian approach on each other, and this was "be honest" sort of session. Everyone was reluctant, but did answer the questions. One of which was:

"What do you dream about?"

I drew a blank, and he decided to dig. I believe we either established that I am a cold, heartless bastard, or Im bottling far too much in my mind. #2 is obviously true.

Would figure I drew yet another blank at the "what is your fantasy woman?"

Perhaps I used the wrong word when I mentioned "control" and a more fitting phrase would be "assurance of rationale."

Dreams may have a logical pattern somehow, but you will never find it.

Originally posted by Raideur

Dreams may have a logical pattern somehow, but you will never find it.

Never say never...

the teeth braking down dream is a pattern...don't tell me you never had one...!

I repress my dreams, remember? And perhaps not never, but from what I hear of dreams, they are a garbled mess of imagines and ideas.

Originally posted by Raideur
I repress my dreams, remember? And perhaps not never, but from what I hear of dreams, they are a garbled mess of imagines and ideas.

I mean before you become the person that U R now...!

I'm intrigued, mwen..........tell me your thoughts on the 'teeth breaking' type dreams.........

Originally posted by xxblackoctoberxx
I just think that our minds are capable of a lot more than we think.

Indeed. Our minds are currently limited, finite as it were. We are capable of so much more than we know, we are just not aware of that yet.

We are bound in this world by our finite minds, we can only have limited knowledge, perception etc. For finite to exist, there must be infinite, or that defies the principle of duality by which all but an enlightened few of us are bound by. There cannot be hot without cold, darkness without light, life without death. It is when we get beyond duality, that we see that we are capable of infinite experiences and knowledge, or the ‘Mind Dimension’ as which you refer to it.

Originally posted by MemoryShock
I'm intrigued, mwen..........tell me your thoughts on the 'teeth breaking' type dreams.........

Although the are many interpretention about dreams from different sources (it doesn't mean that all of them are true)...I would use one of the sources from this book below......It does not matter to me whether anyone believe it or not...

According this book, "The Healers Handbook: A Journey Into Hyperspace"
under the Dream Dictionary section, on page 137, the mind pattern for Tooth or Teeth: Adjustment to life...

so breaking down teeth type of dream may mean that person is having trouble or difficulties adjusting to or dealing with a life situation...

So, the only way to prove to see if that definition is true, one has to examine the time frame, which he/she had that dream and his/her life situation then...

I remain neutral on this interpretation...


[edit on 16-6-2005 by mwen]