Studying it from a scientific viewpoint, instead of paranormal. Can we prove it once and for all?

"Most haunted", siances, ouija boards, clairvoyancy. All useless ways to gain evidence of paranormal goings on.

Whether you believe or not, i myself keep an open mind, you should realise as i do that traditional means of "contacting spirits" etc are lets face it pretty rubbish. Just taking "most haunted for a moment, and putting aside the possibility of it being a fake, in any given episode there is about 1 or no instance of physical "evidence", and a more usual, pretty crap noise of footsteps or someone groaning etc. And thats only what they show, the footage is condensed from an entire nights worth of film.

Basically my point is that if anyone ever wants to prove or disprove the existance of that which we do not at present understand, we are going to have to think up something far more advanced than traditional methods.

perhaps when we die, we die. period. But perhaps we dont. I for one would like to find out, and no ouija board, siance or episode of most haunted is going to prove it (unless of course a ghost walks up and speaks to them)

Can somebody from the scientific community please conduct some real research into the field. I've never understood this thing that scientist have had about studying "far out" fields of research, incase the scientific community deems them not a "real scientist. I for one think thats crap. Let the scientist snobs call you what you like! Be an individual!!! Ok that paragraph is my little teeny ranty bit over.

If people will reply to this i want to completely separate this from the realms of paranormal and superstition in a traditional sense, and look at this field scientifically.

What force of nature or the universe could cause spirits? How could one survive the physical proccess of death? Are these so called spirits the souls of those who have passed away? Or are they some form of intelligent, perhaps energy based life forms? Other life forms? Our minds separated from our bodies??? What reason would they have to not just come forward and talk to us face to face? can they???

these are some of the questions i would like to know.....Please help out guys!!!! (and gals) PWEEEZZZ

Oh and if you have your own questions you are just bursting to get out you are more than welcome to post them here and i for one will try and either answer them or at least ponder with you over them

[edit on 10-6-2005 by Shadow88]

I haven't had the chance to read very much of it, but try looking at this e-book:

www.victorzammit.com...

Victor Zammit has a psychology degree and a law degree, which means he is good at researching and presenting arguments. He decided that he wanted to gather evidence that there is an afterlife. He does a fairly good job of presenting information objectively, and (at least in the parts I've read so far) tries to analyse the concept of an afterlife strictly from a scientific and observational point of view. I don't recall him mentioning religion even once. (not that religion is bad, but it's hardly scientific)

He has chapters on several of the subjects you are asking about, such as seances and the ouija board. He has web links at the end of several chapters that go to researchers in the field. It's worth looking at, particularly as you have expressed an interest on this topic.

Wow some pretty informative stuff. Will take some time to read though so off i go! cheers dude

It is not that what you ask is impossible, there are plenty of people out there right now doing exactly what you want. There are however some inherent problems when you try to apply standard scientific approaches to anything paranormal.

The basic idea of scientific investigation is to try and isolate what you are going to study as much as possible. Eliminate as many factors that could influence the result but that are not vital parts of the subject in question. Very useful for many things, this computer I am using for example, but also contrary to the very nature of psychic events. Everything matters when you are talking about anything psy-related.

There is intent, and most importantly need, to consider and that is rather hard to handle in testing. Humanity as a whole decides how far we wish to go at any one moment. And while it is possible to escape these 'limits' to a small degree any event that would impact others has natural defenses to deal with. If I prove something like ESP to you I have made a decision that will affect the rest of your life, and I simply do not have the right to do that.

But when there is a need, when it matters, then these abilities come out, sometimes in people who have never shown them before.

Take as an example the use of Rhine cards to test for ESP. What meaning can this possibly have other than to the scientist who is doing the study? If a persons abilities do not show up in such a test I would not be surprised because it is pointless. Pointless in the grand scheme of life, certainly of interest to many people.

(Everyone please forgive the example I am about to use, it is harsh and I am in NO WAY suggesting that anyone actually do this)

If the desire to prove that some form of ESP exists, put one scientist at home with a mother, and have the other take her child 100 miles away and shoot him. Then watch the mother, ask her how she feels. She knows, somehow, the moment it happens.

Now personally I am not all that interested in Spirits, Ghosts, or whatever you wish to call them. I think that impressions are left behind in the normal course of human events, the more powerful the emotions the stronger the impression (BTW, human memory works the same way, the more important/emotional something is, the more likely you are to remember it).

But on the bright side, more and more people are looking into these things with an awareness of what I talked about above, and we have already seen results. Today you can tell your Doctor that stress is making you sick and he will not even bat an eye. 30 years ago that was mystical nonsense to the medical community.



A.T
(-)

good luck trying to scientifically proof it when the tools aren't even capable of detecting most of the things yet.

Well then i guess those are things to add to the list of questions

something along the lines of....what will enable us to detect anything of these phenomena?

(eg: purely for hypothetical pondering, if they were electromagnetic energy life forms, we'd detect them on an electromagnetic field detector (the correct name escapes me) and most likely be able to convert these waves into a picture using some specially designed camera, therefore being able to "see" them) obviously i no the reality is farrrrr from this simple.

And dude, the kid shooting analagy......erm.....do try and pick a nicer analagy. but yea i get the point.

This is more faith than proof as of now.

I am far more skeptical than I use to be though, but I do not exclude everything. I would say MOST paranormal things are fraud or false even though the "victims" may believe genuinely in them.

as it is now the only proof is to live it instead of read about it. experience instead of theory.

eventually technology will catch up to detect and document it. but it still has a long way to go unfortunately.

the world is in the 3rd vibrational sequence. some people are in 4-5 and some like me are in the 6th and 7th (there are 13 in total). technology simple has a long way to go.

i'm willing to help the world further, so if you got questions i'll answer them as good as possible. just because i'm way ahead doesnt mean i know everything though so keep that in check.

*Edit*that makes it sound more arrogant then it should, but what the hell...can't find a way to make it sound better and i dont have the time to get the dutch to english dictionary

[edit on 11-6-2005 by Enyalius]

Well you could look at hauntings and ghost as energy with a purpose. Science has finally found out that we do have a field of electrons around our body. So anything that can measure energy should do the trick. Also equipment that measure magnetic resonance would work too I believe as magnetic fields are potential energy. Good hunting


-Aza

yup you can detect and document ghosts. it's a start.

but how about doing something similar to proof people's gifts are for real? how about documenting the other entities besides ghosts? like demonic natured entities, celestials, enlightened individuals/souls...and the astral plain as a whole?

kwantum physics has a future in here when it is fully developed.

Hmmm.........I am going to get off my butt and do some experiments!

My granmas house has been around since the victorian times. Im told that many many people have died in that house, around 17 i believe. 7 of which have died in the lower bedroom, (which is below ground level) this is probably a good place to start) I'll probably set up........an infra sound and ultra sound converter......Heat sensors are a bit more on the pricey side for a science-hobby......Electromagnetic sensor, Electrostatic sensor etc. I will put up more when i think of them....(anyone not know what any of these are i will gladly explain if you ask)

If i hook them all up to my laptop that will be far more efficient than having them all set up terrestrially and separately. I can record them simultantiously and set parameters (if the meter on any goes above a sound will alert me)

I also want to get infra red and heat camera but they are too expensive.....(which is why i want a scientific company or any company to do proper research.....sigh....)

[edit on 11-6-2005 by Shadow88]

Enyalius yes i think it would be a good idea to study these as well.

but the simple fact remains: It is clear we do not have the means, or means sophisticated enough yet to detect these phenomena, therefore we should be focusing on finding out what force of nature we can detect them with.

Perhaps we could detect something more at the highest of high Ultra High Frequency?

As another side note, there is evidence leaning toward a link between Electromagnetic energy and paranormal activity.

My hypothesis is that there are the following possibilities:

• The EM field has some form of mind altering or hallucinogenic effect of humans that is so far unknown
  
• The highten EM field is a side effect of the "spirits" or is emanated from the spirits (spirit waste??? could that be what orbs are?
  
• The EM field gives a hightened sense of state for humans alowwing them to see more than normal.....
  
• the EM field is just a coincidence......perhaps a side effect of the electronics in peoples homes or wiring in the walls
  

These are of course all wild guesses, serious research would have to be done to substanciate any of it, as with any paranormal phenomena.

The only problem is that electromagnetics fry electronics.....Sigh its like you get over one mini hurdle and another arises......then another etc.....

[edit on 11-6-2005 by Shadow88]

I would have to go with #1, although I see your point with #3.

I would word them a bit differently 'the EM field contains thoughts, emotions and visuals that are passed to the viewer'. That does fit into what you said, but just a little more explicit. The interesting question for me is exactly how is this energy held for what is sometimes hundreds of years. I have seen people pull impressions off of objects, and it makes me ask the same question. What it is I get, but how?


Good luck with your research.


A.T
(-)

A thought just occurred to me whilst reading your post. What if the increases in electromagnetic fields in towns, cities, buildings etc have had an effect on....something. I dont know what exactly.

Either - (the human body has its own field around it.......the human brain is still full of mysteries.....i could go on) Some part of the human mind could be stored in the EM fields of wires, TV's, even the Iron in materials.....i dont know....AND maybe the increase in the amount and intensities of EM fields could account for the increase over the last 100 years or so of paranormal encounters......

Or - Like i said the increased EM fields just cause us to think we see these things.

All forms of energy interact in some fashion. So while I think the energy that makes up the 'ghost' is very different from electric current it would not surprise me to find links. My first guess is that interfearance would be the most likely effect of a large amount of wires and other EM field producing devices. I think this because the energy involved in the paranormal event contains more than force, it has data, emotions, and other subtle things embeded in it. Plain power EM fields could perhaps act like an eraser.

But I do not believe that the increase in paranormal activity is much more than (90%) better access to a way to report (the net, societies, a lot of places to tell your story or get help) and (10%) the slow advancement of humanity as a whole into broader capabilities to sense and accept 'strange' things.


A.T
(-)

Perhaps there is a so far unknown form of weak energy that contains the ghosts so to speak, and is amplified by and/or interacts with other energies, like, EM or electrical fields?? which is why MOST encounters are in houses. i dunno.....

[edit on 13-6-2005 by Shadow88]

Theory on orbs

an orb is a small ball of energy. this is the ghost. it contains all the information about the ghost. Physical features, personality traits etc. it can not manifest into a shape seen by the naked eye and recording devices. however when i'm in a room where someone sees an orb, i see the ghostly figure itself with my third eye.

seeing more and more people are realising that they have "gifts" since birth and learn to use it, more people start reporting to see ghosts and other entities. in this case we need science to evolve even further to detect these kind of energies and alter it so it can be seen like i see it with my third eye.

seeing the 3rd eye isn't biological it's difficult to dissect someone and study how it works.

when it comes to dealing with paranormal/spiritual events it's clear that you're dealing with energy. unfortunately there are so many different types of energy it's difficult to define which type it is that is being used and which type it is that we have to monitor.

Is there anyway to.....illuminate the surrounding area somehow. Im just trying to think of how to put my idea into words and the point of it......

Right so youre in an empty room, calling for spirits or ghost hunting or whatever. the room appears to be empty. You switch on device X sending out a shockwave of particle Y. All of a sudden the room lights up with orbs all around you....

OH!!! i remember what i mean it to be like. "Final fantasy - the spirits within", the spirits are invisible, unless they come into contact with a certain substance at which point they light up. Thats obviously where I got the thought from......

But could this have any practical application in the real world?

eventually yes. when we know what kind of energy these ghosts consist of and then know what the counterpart of it is.

I was having a discussion on the topic of ghosts earlier. You will find that with this topic that people so easily dismiss it as crap basically.

The problem is that over the years the topic has been churned up and jazzified by the hollywood machines that unless you actually research the subject, on face value it does look like nonsense.

My father says it is nonsense, when i asked him why he said that how on earth could we separate from our bodies is impossible, why would we jump out closets and go "wooo!!!", etc etc.

Film and media is one of the main reasons this subject is taken so unseriously. If people would just take a second to look at the real scientific data and theories behind the topic and how it could work then it actually sounds quite plausible. But thats simply not the case, the media has opinionated the world into viewing it a certain way....