Amazing new UFO Footage, June 8 Phoenix

I have seen many vidoes that seemed suspect. However, I looked at this in amazement. If it is a hoax, then well done. But I do not get that impression.

I guess it is human nature when presented with some extraordinary to try and make is ordinary and thus explainable within our own terms of reality. I showed the video to a couple of people I work with and their reaction was "uh-uh, no way". They simply did not want to accept that it could be real.

Again, that's why debunking is all the rage. Lets explain it away and the world will go on as we know it. This is not to say that there aren't hoaxes. There are some incredible ones.

My issue is with all of these so called "experts" who have immediately jumped on this with comments ranging from "who has a video camera in their car on the way to Walmart" to "perfect framing" to "CGI lights that can be done in software" to "no commentary". To these I say "bah".

If anyone wants to try and call themselves a debunker in any serious fashion then, to them, I challenge to recreate the video. If it is not so hard to do, then we should have copies spring up in about 2 weeks.

There are many reasons why someone might have video equipment in their car and I simply find this line of thought irrational.

Perfect framing? Let's see, I look through the viewfinder and center the object. Then I zoom out. Crap, look at my 'perfect' framing. Did I really mean to do that? Again, this comment makes no sense.

No commentary? I did hear commentary. Don't know about you though. I guess if this were authentic, you wouldn't just stand there stunned and make a comment or two. A more natural reaction would be to crap your pants (make sure you get that on video too), and yell explitives towards the sky while maintaining your 'perfect framing'. Come one. What kind of commentary would be acceptable to you? After all there are 5 billion people on this planet and we all react differently. But apparently there is a commentary protocol when filiming an alledged UFO.

Last but least, CGI lights. O.K. do it. Prove that it is a hoax. Show me the money. Recreate it. In fact, lets get all the dirt we can on the person who did this and see if they have any background in CGI or video. If we are going to debunk, lets do it full force.

Free-
First of all perfect framing is highly unusual in ufo videos. It's a fact, that if you choose to ignore or..."bah" as you put it, then youre welcome to be drawn into any number of outright hoaxes. It's called critical thinking...and there's not nearly enough of it in UFO circles.

You ask for "recreation", yet that proves absolutely nothing, but is always being asked for these days. I'll say it again, duplicating it proves NOTHING.

Commentary in amazing events such as this are the majority. I do hear comentary, but it's a little less then what would be expected at such a sight...it is not grounds for proving a hoax....it's called an observation.

If you choose to believe this straight away be my guest. I'd choose to put it thru it's paces and make it stand up on it's legs, and know what I'm really looking at, rather then delude myself.

I'm getting a little tired of the stance of "prove it's a fake". The burden of proof falls on those making a claim.

No one here is making any claim, but rather trying to be critical and not accept anything at face value.

As far as I'm concerned looking at it on the web, it certainly looks good. I'm pretty impressed actually.

BUT FACE FACTS:
we have no idea what the whole tape looks like
we have no idea what the shooter does for a living
has the shooter shot ufos before?
were there other witnesses?

We know nothing. Only what a report says.

Just because it looks good, doesnt mean I'm gonna swallow it.

I'm not saying this is fake, but here's my thinking on how it could be faked. There's a piece of glass. On 'this' side of the glass you have some kind of laser pointer thingy creating this effect on the glass. The camera is also on 'this' side of the glass filming through the glass which gives the effect that these things are really there in the sky. Does this make sense to anybody? Should I send my resume in to George Lucas?

Peace

Doc-
I see what youre thinking, but that leaves out the scintellation...you wouldnt get that twinkle using a piece of glass. It could be done that way, but it wouldnt look like this does. It's also a question of moving the lasers...you cannot hold them still no matter what you do, so if they are lasers, it's computer aided movement.

But I dont think it is. Whatever they are, it looks like they are truly far and scintellation is happening.

At least it looks that way on this web based video.

You'll have to explain perfect framing to me then. If the camcorder is on a tripod and you center the object, what's the problem? Heck, a twelve year old could do this. You make it seem that anyone with a camcorder, unless trying to perpetrate a hoax, should not be able to perfectly frame anything. This is nowhere close to motion picture quality, so again I say "bah" on your perfect framing analysis.

O.K. so recreating the video proves nothing? How about the fact that it could prove that it is a hoax, which seems to be the majority thought on this thread.

Why is it that there are so many who tout "critical thinking" as their venue rather than stating that this is an outright hoax. Heck, I love critical thinking and question just about everything. And yes, I ran through some scenarios in my mind where this video could be a fake.

Let me ask you this....what does debating do? It allows you to express your opinion. What does THAT prove. Nothing.

I certainly am not drawn into every hoax and, yes, I agree that the filmer has an obligation to make the raw footage available for anaylsis. There is burden on this individual. I guess I am expressing my opinion for those of us who would like to belive this is real. I am questioning your questioning.

I can see that you are involved with film, so you obviously have some expertise in the matter.

Now, I am not trying to start a war. But everyime someone questions those that are applying "critical thinking", you folks fire right back as to why their thinking is screwed up.

There are two possibilities: Real or Fake.

Again, I will table my thoughts until the raw footage can be made available and analyzed. Until then, I retain the right to belive that the footage is genuine.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by Freenrgy2]

Originally posted by Meteor_of_War

The lack of anyone saying anything while watching the amazing light display is kind of odd, no verbal reaction at all? A bit hard to believe. I could see if maybe the guy was alone, but in the description he did say "we", implying there was multiple witnesses.

Agreed. The basic human reaction to such an event would NOT be silence.

Second, I agree that it is strange the guy happened to conveniently have a camera and tripod with him while going to Walmart. Although, we cant hold that against him. Surely some people out there carry cameras wherever they go--especially people who have been witness to sightings in the past.

Disagree. I am a designer/artist. I often have a digital and/or video camera with me for no apparent reason. It's not out of the relm of possibility to have this stuff handy.


Peace

I said before that the first part of the video it looks like the lights are right in front facing the camera, but the second portion, presumably when he detached the camera from the tripod and moved a little off angle from where he was you can see the light pattern has changed slightly as the camera view point appears to be slightly to the right now, revealing the lights being off plane from the center larger light.

from one angle the light appear in perfect formation like a flower pedal but as the camera moves around to the right, the light pattern changes. This one is going to be hard to determine what it actually is that is making the lights.

Footage seems almost too perfect, to believe. But there is something about those lights emerging from a distance and making their way into the conglomeration. That part looks real enough.

I don't really get the part after the edit, the formation is less than perfect, than what was initially displayed. The lights had to have moved out of alignment at some point to take that almost triangular position before blinking out.

I agree that there seems to be much editing done, perhaps to shrink the file size for interests sake alone.

Also, I don't think it impossible that the witnesses would be dead quiet while the lights emerged. If you were truely awed by such a spectacle you might be frozen and just staring, too!

Whether it is real or not, there is not much to be gained from this video. I think it is very good, but questionable because I don't think it would be hard to duplicate. But that doesn't matter because there is no new evidence or information, so we would be no closer to solving the mystery of UFO's in either case. So IMHO there is no reason to knock someone elses opinion.

"O.K. so recreating the video proves nothing? How about the fact that it could prove that it is a hoax, which seems to be the majority thought on this thread."

You said it yourself. *Could* be hoaxed. Could aint good enough. Hollywood has proven that anything can be faked digitally, and given enough time and knowledge this footage could be too. Does it look fake? Nope, but thats the idea behind doing something like that. Again, I dont think any CGI is involved. "Could" doesnt solve a damned thing.

"Why is it that there are so many who tout "critical thinking" as their venue rather than stating that this is an outright hoax. Heck, I love critical thinking and question just about everything. And yes, I ran through some scenarios in my mind where this video could be a fake."

Because I dont believe it's a fake...yet. However you seem perfectly willing to accept internet based video for "analysis". I dont. Appearently you dont question everything. Critical thinking is not accepting face value on this kind of stuff...not just saying it's a hoax, which I have never done without doing work on footage.

"Let me ask you this....what does debating do? It allows you to express your opinion. What does THAT prove. Nothing."

I fail to see the relevancy. Debating isnt even in the equation.

"I certainly am not drawn into every hoax and, yes, I agree that the filmer has an obligation to make the raw footage available for anaylsis. There is burden on this individual. I guess I am expressing my opinion for those of us who would like to belive this is real. I am questioning your questioning."

You wanna believe it's real, feel free. Am I badgering your belief? Gimme a break. Believe what you want, thats not my problem. I dont base my belief on internet quality edited video I downloaded from people I know nothing about. You can question my questioning all you want...it seems you feel I am intruding on your belief system, I'm not, and again, thats your issue.

"I can see that you are involved with film, so you obviously have some expertise in the matter.

Now, I am not trying to start a war. But everyime someone questions those that are applying "critical thinking", you folks fire right back as to why their thinking is screwed up."

I guess I'll just drop it then, if you'd rather get suckered in, be my guest. If no one ever put forth why something might be fraudulent, then nothing would get solved, or unsolved in the case of genuine enigma.

Yeah, thats real productive. Glad you werent around when the snake oil salesmen were trying to cure polio.

"There are two possibilities: Real or Fake.

Again, I will table my thoughts until the raw footage can be made available and analyzed. Until then, I retain the right to belive that the footage is genuine."

Oh I see, so you can have your belief but I cannot put forth any opinion at all. You feel free to believe whatever you want...but coming at people here with "put up of shut up" when you have no clue what youre believing in....well thats again your issue.

"You'll have to explain perfect framing to me then. If the camcorder is on a tripod and you center the object, what's the problem? Heck, a twelve year old could do this. You make it seem that anyone with a camcorder, unless trying to perpetrate a hoax, should not be able to perfectly frame anything. This is nowhere close to motion picture quality, so again I say "bah" on your perfect framing analysis."

No, again you misread, Mr. Defensive. We dont know where the edits were nor what the cam motion was, and I said, perfect framing doesnt make it a hoax....only unusual. I"ll say it again so you can "get it", it's an observation, not a basis for any analysis.

Originally posted by justdj
usually the local news covers stuff like this. i havent heard anything about this otherwise, outside of here. i will certainly keep an eye out.

[edit on 9-6-2005 by justdj]

lol, the U.S. media certainly does NOT cover stuff like this.

I happen to agree with everything you said, but you need to relax a bit. Obviously there isn’t "enough information" available to determine fake or real. I know this, you know this, but so what if others don’t. Let them duke it out. The point is someone posted a really neat video that MAY or MAY NOT be real. If everyone shared our way of thinking the post would go like this:

Video posted. Looks cool! Not enough info to determine real or not. Thread closed.

Now that’s no fun is it? Frankly, it's through these "debates" (intelligent or not) that I find I learn more from everyone. Sometimes what I learn isn’t even about thread's topic but rather about the "psychology" of the people that post here. They represent fragments of our many societies. And to me, THAT is valuable.

Relax, and enjoy the show!


Peace

Dude, I'm relaxed...when have I not been calm...I'm calm. lol

Seriously, I aint bent, but I dont like being told I cannot say what I think or put forth any senario I think may add to a base of data. Thats all.

"Bah" put forth as a response to legitimate questioning is to me an effort to squelch discussion. I dont put up with that.

No worries, I'm good.

For what it's worth, based on what limited footage I see, I like it, and I think whatever it is, it's there. But I *really* wanna get the raw footage dub...man...I'd love to see it all.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by jritzmann]

Originally posted by jritzmann
Dude, I'm relaxed...when have I not been calm...I'm calm. lol

Seriously, I aint bent, but I dont like being told I cannot say what I think or put forth any senario I think may add to a base of data. Thats all.

I understand. I'm sure your not bent, I just think you were putting alot of energy into something that will fall on deaf ears. I always enjoy your posts... It's all good.

For what it's worth, based on what limited footage I see, I like it, and I think whatever it is, it's there. But I *really* wanna get the raw footage dub...man...I'd love to see it all.

I agree, I think it's great and I WANT IT TO be real, but you really do need the raw footage to make any headway.

I dont talk about my experiences much, but these lights are soooo close to something i saw in the past. In my experience the lights went from a circle formation such as this to a straight line, and faded out in order. To this day, my father and I wonder what it was.

Peace

Originally posted by Serum39

Originally posted by jritzmann
Dude, I'm relaxed...when have I not been calm...I'm calm. lol

Seriously, I aint bent, but I dont like being told I cannot say what I think or put forth any senario I think may add to a base of data. Thats all.

I understand. I'm sure your not bent, I just think you were putting alot of energy into something that will fall on deaf ears. I always enjoy your posts... It's all good.

I agree with the deaf ears...and youre right, but one has to try sometimes to explain one's stance...no matter how futile the outcome. I'm done with that...no point in more.

For what it's worth, based on what limited footage I see, I like it, and I think whatever it is, it's there. But I *really* wanna get the raw footage dub...man...I'd love to see it all.

I agree, I think it's great and I WANT IT TO be real, but you really do need the raw footage to make any headway.

I dont talk about my experiences much, but these lights are soooo close to something i saw in the past. In my experience the lights went from a circle formation such as this to a straight line, and faded out in order. To this day, my father and I wonder what it was.

Peace

Eh, I dont feel either way about it being real...if it is, it's some of the best I have seen in at least the controlled lights category. I try not to put my "want" of it being real, before being critical and objective. It's tough, but keeping that "want" in check is detrimental for good work and discoveries of hoaxes as well as real enigmatic instances.

Take care,
J

It's always great to see intelligent debates going on, you guys are brilliant!

As for requests for RAW footage, UFO theater is taking requests for the original DVD RAW AVI format that can be mailed to you (for legitimate use of course) free of charge.

More info and RAW footage request can be found here:
UFO Theater post
will require registration

Excellent, I'll get a copy soon as I can, thanx much for doin the legwork.

I'm outta here, you guys have a good weekend.

~J

About the "no commentary" comments

He did say something. First he said "they're coming down" or something like that, then he said "whoa..."
Isn't "whoa..." a good reaction to this? I know he didn't say anything at first. Maybe he was surprised beyond words that some light he was taping was joined by some other little lights. Or maybe he murmured something quietly and it got lost in the wind howl.
Then later he says "$hit!!! check that $hit out!"

What I find a bit suspicious is why the trees seemed so well lit when everything else is pitch black. Maybe there are some street lights nearby but, I dunno, I expect the trees to be darker and not lighted so uniformly. The lighting on the trees seemed to be pale too. Maybe the UFOs were so bright they helped light the tree up?

[edit on 10-6-2005 by Taishyou]