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NEWS: Replica Guns To Be Banned?

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posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 03:39 PM
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AceOfBase is right....even if you do the percents and basically make up for the US larger population....the UK stats are still lower.

I still don't think we should ban guns....but AceOfBase is right with the stats. The original stats that subz posted are wrong and inaccurate.




posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 03:50 PM
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Statistics are warped, open your eyes and ears.. Go out and talk to people, I would say listen on the scanner but it's illegal and impossible now thanks to TETRA.

I work in a public service job and I'm not afraid to talk to people about this subject, the majority of people I speak to of all ages, professions, backgrounds all think we should be able to defend ourselves and have nothing against normal gun ownership.

To hell with what the 'statistics say' at the end of the day I havn't met one person who has ever taken part in a 'survey' and I know I havn't.
Most of the surveys/phone ins etc are completed by people with little else to do with their time, stuck at home and not eally with the real world anywya. They then blow up the figure proportionally to give these ridiculous statements.

If you run a TV survey on daytime TV, then who are you going to get?

Say after Dunblane, they did phone in surveys...

OK, it's during the day.. the majority of people who are even watching it and who bother to phone in are Mums (OK lets be 'PC' Dads as well..) at home who naturally are feeling particularly vulnerable because of this disgusting act and they pose the question 'Should guns be banned?"

No prizes for guessing the outcome of that survey then..........

Problem is, it gets portrayed as the national view of the subject.. very far from the truth.

About a week or two after dunblane someone did the equivalent with a machete... I can still buy a machete in the store next to work for under a fiver (and rightly so too!)...

People get scared, subjects become taboo and the governement passes yet another ridicolous law taking away more freedoms from the people without ANY effect on the criminals that we fear...


"So this is how liberty dies -- to thunderous applause" - SW EP-3


- how sadly true...


[edit on 9-6-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:04 PM
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I don't have references to them online as I own the sources/books, in the flesh. It was why I listed the name of the publication though; I can probably find links to the books if you wish to buy them?

List again:
Population Trends 103. Office for National Statistics. London, Spring 2001
London’s Evening Standard
United Nations International Study of Firearms Regulation. UN: New York
Guns and Violence: The English Experience by Joyce Lee Malcolm
Jan Berry, chairman of the Police Federation

It's clear Britain has raising gun crime, just from the Guns and Violence book which gave these numbers: 1981 the American rate was 8.7 times the English rate, in 1995 it was 5.7 times the English rate, and the latest study puts it at 3.5 times in 2002. With America going down in violent crime and Britain getting worse all it will take is another economic depression and this Nation will be screwed.

Few online articles:
www.ncis.co.uk...
www.met.police.uk...

Side note:
although I don't think being easily able to buy firearms is the direct answer, I think they should be legal and strictly regulated. As it is I can easily get a shotgun through a legal channel as can anyone else who wishes to go to a "shooting club" or "sports event". It would easily be possible to abuse this and steal the weapons as has happened in the passed.

It is clear if you look world over (as I've mentioned many nations with legal firearms and low murder rates) that it is the social and economic problems that cause homicide. Banning guns won't ever help this problem because then only criminals can have them. Also on a serious note if you were going to steal something from someones house; would you be more likely to do it if their was a chance they were armed?

Also it boils down to the simple fact: if guns are illegal it makes a black market for them. I don't know if any of you have lived in a "run down" estate but go there, go to Wolverhampton or Birmingham and live in one of the rougher areas for a week. See what it is like. People get threatened daily by guns and they never report it t the Police through fear. The same for burglary, this Nation is going to get worse unless something is done to change all aspects of it. Also seriously, look at other Nations such as Norway, Switzerland, etc, instead of just America. You can use one Nation to justify anything but it does not make it reprosentative of the world or the whole of Society. America and Britain are different a lot different, we're better related to other european countries which have guns and low death rates and crime rates.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by Odium0
Also it boils down to the simple fact: if guns are illegal it makes a black market for them. I don't know if any of you have lived in a "run down" estate but go there, go to Wolverhampton or Birmingham and live in one of the rougher areas for a week. See what it is like. People get threatened daily by guns and they never report it t the Police through fear. The same for burglary, this Nation is going to get worse unless something is done to change all aspects of it. Also seriously, look at other Nations such as Norway, Switzerland, etc, instead of just America. You can use one Nation to justify anything but it does not make it reprosentative of the world or the whole of Society. America and Britain are different a lot different, we're better related to other european countries which have guns and low death rates and crime rates.


Thank you.. The problem with the statistics is because they are inaccurate..
Just try and peel youself away from the Newspaper, TV Screen, Computer Screen, etc and go and talk to people and take a look for yourself!

To hell with what 'statistics' show.. If they said the grass was blue and everywhere you looked they said the grass was blue would you believe it?

The answers are out there, go and check them for yourselfs.. it's not a conspiracy as such.. they massage the figures because reality is just too scary.. back in the days when you 'could' listen on a scanner, anyone that has knows how many incidents you hear that are serious, yet how few (if any) make it to figures and news stories.

Most people when threatened with a gun in a lot of circumstances, are not going to report it due to fear of the consequences... as with a lot of crimes.. rapes don;t get reported becasue the victim is too ashamed.... statisics are inaccurate - I say again, talk to people, go to the areas and see for yourself.. if you dare...

Of course you can hide behind your statistics, computers, tvs, newspapers and laws and pretend the problem isn't there.. it seems to work for some...

[edit on 9-6-2005 by AgentSmith]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:20 PM
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Hooah!!! AgentSmith! Well said. Sorry I used all my way aboves for the month or I'd give you two of them.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:28 PM
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Originally posted by OdiumI don't know if any of you have lived in a "run down" estate but go there, go to Wolverhampton or Birmingham and live in one of the rougher areas for a week. See what it is like. People get threatened daily by guns and they never report it t the Police through fear. The same for burglary, this Nation is going to get worse unless something is done to change all aspects of it. Also seriously, look at other Nations such as Norway, Switzerland, etc, instead of just America. You can use one Nation to justify anything but it does not make it reprosentative of the world or the whole of Society. America and Britain are different a lot different, we're better related to other european countries which have guns and low death rates and crime rates.


Would you feel safer in South Central LA than in Birmingham or Wolverhampton?

I'll start comparing the UK to other European countries if you can give me a list of countries in Europe which have banned guns and countries where they are still easy to get. What's it like in Germany and France? Are they banned there?



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:33 PM
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There are a lot of places in the UK a lot rougher than you might think..
Unlike some people though we don't have any film crews stupid enough to go there and it's not something we like to brag about...



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith

Of course you can hide behind your statistics, computers, tvs, newspapers and laws and pretend the problem isn't there.. it seems to work for some...


Just out of curiosity, how would they fudge the statistics to lower the number of murders?
What do they do with the dead body laying on the ground?
Do they not record it?



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by AgentSmith
There are a lot of places in the UK a lot rougher than you might think..
Unlike some people though we don't have any film crews stupid enough to go there and it's not something we like to brag about...


The areas where this type of crime in the UK happen are very rare and isolated.

Very few people have ever met someone that has been threatened with a gun.

There are very few places in the UK that are "rough" enough that gun crime is a regular occurence, it is so rare. In fact I can't think of one town or city that it happens even once per day on average.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:17 PM
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sorry, my bad.

[edit on 6/9/2005 by lightseeker]

[edit on 6/9/2005 by lightseeker]

[edit on 6/9/2005 by lightseeker]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by AceOfBase

Would you feel safer in South Central LA than in Birmingham or Wolverhampton?

I'll start comparing the UK to other European countries if you can give me a list of countries in Europe which have banned guns and countries where they are still easy to get. What's it like in Germany and France? Are they banned there?


My girlfriend/fiancee is actually from North Carolina; in one of the worse areas and if you check the statistics it is also one with the highest number of murder rates in the U.S.A. yet I feel safer there then I do in Wolverhampton. I've visited New York a lot as well as a lot of the world (I go on holiday at least 3 times a year) and the only time I go back to Wolverhampton now is if someone I know either dies, gets married or has a kid. In the area I grew up in after my parents divorce it is a hell hole. Violence is going up and up and the "gang culture" is getting worse.

Nations with strict gun laws in Europe; Britain, Sweden, Germany (hunting only)

Nations with Stringent gun laws; Switzerland, Norway, Spain, Finland (bringing back self defence laws for hand-guns after the rise in violent crime once they were banned).

France can fit into either as they have odd laws on firearms.

Spain has had several recent problems with fire-arms, including abuse by Police officers but the majority of this was done by people who got access to firearms though the military or police force so legal or not they would have had access to them.

Switzerland has an amazingly low crime rate and every man over 21 or 18 has to own a firearm by state law.

The Nations which work the best are the ones which allow people to own firearms, record those who do, give background checks and keep up to date records of weapons. As well as restricting certain types of weapons; such as those that can not be used for self-defence or hunting. (Although I dislike hunting). Guns such as RPG launchers and explosive types should never be legal nor should any form of sniper rifle or silence. But those which can be used for home defence of "military" defence should be.


Originally posted by Kriz_4
There are very few places in the UK that are "rough" enough that gun crime is a regular occurence, it is so rare. In fact I can't think of one town or city that it happens even once per day on average.


Glasgow, London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton I'm fairly sure have a daily report of firearms. Nottingham is another.


Originally posted by AceOfBase
Just out of curiosity, how would they fudge the statistics to lower the number of murders?
What do they do with the dead body laying on the ground?
Do they not record it?


What I meant by this is, in America is takes a long while to go through the court system, etc, to display if something was a homicide or self defence especially with the way in which the law is worded. It is similar over here but if someone shoots another person dead they are guilty no matter what - unless teh jury let them off.

This can lead to a very bias view of statistics as the FBI has all homicides listed as murder till proven otherwise and it's hard as all hell to find the number of acquitted people per-year; with only some being done the year the "murder" actually happens.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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Glasgow, London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton I'm fairly sure have a daily report of firearms. Nottingham is another.


Could you please supply a link to these reports. Or contact information for organisations that hold such reports. Who distributes these reports?



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by Kriz_4


Glasgow, London, Birmingham, Wolverhampton I'm fairly sure have a daily report of firearms. Nottingham is another.


Could you please supply a link to these reports. Or contact information for organisations that hold such reports. Who distributes these reports?



I just did a quick search on London but here you go:
www.cnsnews.com.../ForeignBureaus/archive/200204/FOR20020418e.html
"In 2001-02, police recorded more than 1 million total crimes " and "On average, there have been about 190 muggings per day in London over the past year." if gun crime only reprosents 1% of all crime in Britain that is still 1.9 muggings involving a firearm of any type per-day. Also remember these are "reported" muggings, which do not make up all of them as many victims don't come forward.

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...
"Gun crime is concentrated in a small number of urban areas. Nearly two-thirds of non-air weapon firearm offences occur in just three police force areas – Metropolitan, Greater Manchester and West Midlands. In these areas it is a major cause of fear and distress."



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:09 PM
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My figures are wrong, dont know what the hell I was thinking. Apologies people.

I would edit the monstrosity of math but I cant


As a side note to those that question the validity of statistics and say they are massaged. Shouldnt that apply to American statistics just as much as British ones? If the British government would want to hide how many people are being shot to death in their country, wouldnt the United States of America do the same thing?

[edit on 9/6/05 by subz]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:15 PM
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"In 2001-02, police recorded more than 1 million total crimes " and "On average, there have been about 190 muggings per day in London over the past year." if gun crime only reprosents 1% of all crime in Britain that is still 1.9 muggings involving a firearm of any type per-day. Also remember these are "reported" muggings, which do not make up all of them as many victims don't come forward.


Thats the great thing, gun crime represents a tiny percentage of crime. Thousands of times less than 1% of all crimes.

Guns just are not needed for protection here.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:22 PM
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For the best, lol it will just help the black market grow.
This just going to make everything worse... in the UK...



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:26 PM
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While the U.S. doesn't totally ban replica/toy guns, I think it's required that they have bright colored parts that make it obvious that they are not real.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
I think it's required that they have bright colored parts that make it obvious that they are not real.


If it doesn't look the same, it isn't a replica...is it..



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by Kriz_4

"In 2001-02, police recorded more than 1 million total crimes " and "On average, there have been about 190 muggings per day in London over the past year." if gun crime only reprosents 1% of all crime in Britain that is still 1.9 muggings involving a firearm of any type per-day. Also remember these are "reported" muggings, which do not make up all of them as many victims don't come forward.


Thats the great thing, gun crime represents a tiny percentage of crime. Thousands of times less than 1% of all crimes.

Guns just are not needed for protection here.


But it is growing. It always has been growing(since 1997); worse yet by getting rid of replica fire arms now these youths who mug with fake guns will have an option; switch to real guns, knives or smash and grab. All three resulting in more violence. Also gun crime tends to reprosent at least 8% of crime as shown in;
www.homeoffice.gov.uk...='home%20office%20homicides'
So it's much higher then the 1% I used to display it, again shown in this: www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

Funny thing is, violent crime has gone back to the levels of the early 90's in per-100,000 and the gun ban was meant to stop this. There's a reason Finland banned guns and is now allowing them back in.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by junglejake
Violent Crime Statistics
In 2003-2004, the UK experienced 2,708,000 violent crime incidents
The UK's population is 60,270,708
This means there was about a 4.5% chance of someone living in the UK being the victim of a violent crime.
Source

In the year 2000 (couldn't find stats for 2003), the US had a population of 281,421,906 and experienced 2,440,736 violent crime incidents (combined violent crime, murder, agrivated assault, and rape). This means there is a .87% of an American being the victim of a violent crime. Source


The problem with that data is that you've compared survey data (BCS) with recorded crime data (Disastercenter).

You need to compare survey data for the UK with survey data for the US and then compare recorded data for the UK with recorded data for the US.

Lets start with the survey data:
UK 2,708,000 out of a population of 60 million homeoffice.gov.uk (pdf)
US 5,401,720 out of a population of 293 million. ojp.usdoj.gov (pdf)

That does put the UK at a higher rate than the US, according to survey results.

Here are recorded crimes:

UK: 1,109,017 out of 60 million. homeoffice.gov.uk (pdf)
US: 1,381,259 out of 293 million?????? fbi.gov (xls)

I'm not sure what's up with that.
That looks screwy.
I wonder if some classes of violent crime are being included in the UK stats that aren't in the US stats. When I look at assualts per capita on Nationmaster, it shows the US as slightly higher (link) but that's not what I'm seeing here.



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