Replica guns to go.

It has been announced that replica guns are to be banned from public sale in an effort to reduce their circulation and ultimately stop them being used to intimidate and threaten people.

The sale of certain kinds of knives is to be further controlled too.

Plans to ban the manufacture, import and sale of replica guns are being outlined by the government.
The measures are expected to be included in the Violent Crime Reduction Bill - one of the government's flagship pieces of legislation.

New restrictions on the sale of knives are also set to be introduced.

Binge drinking-related disorder will also be addressed, with proposed plans such as closing bars for 24 hours if they persistently sell to minors.

news.bbc.co.uk...

- Good news IMO and about time too.

Whilst it will take time it should ultimately reduce the numbers of those replica guns in circulation.
IMO we have far to much of a ridiculous 'gun culture'.

It is worth repeating that replica guns make up a substantial proportion of what is termed 'gun crime' in the UK.

(thanks for the info Ace of Bass)

It's worth noting that according to ITV news real gun crime fell by 13% last year whilst replica gun crime rose by 60%.

I also applaud the restrictions on the sale of certain types of knives, particularly to minors. IMO this additional control (to what already exists) is long overdue.

It's not the whole answer but part of the whole answer.......

.......and part of what keeps serious crime of all kinds (especially and very much including gun crime) low in the UK as compared to many countries.



[edit on 8-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

even if this comes into play
at the end of the day
do you really think criminals will take notice of the ban?
if they can get hold of guns the can use knives,base ball bats and so on

That's true to a certain extent, bodrul, but at least this might make it a bit harder for them to get hold of these things. However positive a move this is, the government would do well to keep in mind that simply banning things doesn't remove them from circulation completely and a ban never solved a crime.

One thought that occurs, if a criminal can't get hold of a replica gun to commit his crime and takes a knife instead, surely there is a greater likelihood of someone being hurt? A replica gun can be used to frighten someone but ultimately can't do them much harm unlike a knife.

Originally posted by Chris McGee

One thought that occurs, if a criminal can't get hold of a replica gun to commit his crime and takes a knife instead, surely there is a greater likelihood of someone being hurt? A replica gun can be used to frighten someone but ultimately can't do them much harm unlike a knife.

Thats an interesting question Chris, and i won't suggest I can offer a definitive answer. I imagine there would be some cases such as you suggest, but I would also think that many people who would use an imitation weapon would not necessarily move to carrying a knife and using it.

I would suggets that there is a significant difference between implying the use of violence and actually applying violence in the commission of an offence. Personally I would suspect that imitation firearm users would probably be more inclined to switch to the use of a bladed weapon (in the longterm, as the short term effect will be negligible Ithink), but i do feel that that does not automatically imply they would actually use a knife to inflict injury anymore than they might pistol whip a victim with their imitation firearm.

It will be interesting to see how this pans out though, and I think you have raised a very pertinent point.

So this is like banning guns reduces gun crime? Whatever..... How is banning something going to reduce it's use? Show me an example of something that is banned actually end up not being used? All your doing is banning responsible people owning them as the criminals will not care if it is illegal, hence why they are criminals!

Stupid, but entirely normal, Government reaction. Instead of trying to treat the disease they just fight the symptoms.

How will this affect those that enjoy Airsoft (basically paintballing but with BB Guns). Will responsible people have to be punished again for doing something that they enjoy, when it is only a small handful of twats that are spoiling it?

Originally posted by stumason
So this is like banning guns reduces gun crime? Whatever..... How is banning something going to reduce it's use?

- It reduces (eventually) the numbers in circulation and the ease with which they get into circulation.

Ultimately you end up with the 'casual user' unable to to 'use' and those that do are a small core group much more easily tackled.

How will this affect those that enjoy Airsoft (basically paintballing but with BB Guns). Will responsible people have to be punished again for doing something that they enjoy, when it is only a small handful of twats that are spoiling it?

- As I understand it the idea is that replica guns (and presumably paintball type guns etc) that could genuinely be mistaken for real guns are out.

I'm sure it's not beyond the wit of the honest paint-ball gaming crew to come up with a solution to that.

One quick side note:

If we get rid of Replica guns the criminals who would normally use this will either
A) Get a knife or blunt object or;
B) Get a gun(real) since those will still be coming into the Nation illegally.

How does this help to stop violent crime? The criminals will just turn to "real" firearms instead of "fake" firearms. Would it have not been better to give the Police more powers? So that they can shoot to kill without having to worry if a firearm is a replica or not and the consequences of their career? The only people in my honest view who will suffer will be those who buy such toys for fun. If someone is going to mug someone they'll do it with access to these or not - they'll just find something else to use instead.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey

Originally posted by stumason
So this is like banning guns reduces gun crime? Whatever..... How is banning something going to reduce it's use?

- It reduces (eventually) the numbers in circulation and the ease with which they get into circulation.

Ultimately you end up with the 'casual user' unable to to 'use' and those that do are a small core group much more easily tackled.

Just like drugs? That worked and does work so well. :-) No drug problems in the World at all; honestly...don't believe me do you?

Originally posted by Odium
One quick side note:

If we get rid of Replica guns the criminals who would normally use this will either
A) Get a knife or blunt object

- That has always been a possibility, the other possibility you have not mentioned is that without access to a realistic replica they might not commit the crime at all, hmmm?

B) or: Get a gun(real) since those will still be coming into the Nation illegally.

- Once again I'd suggest this is a leap to an (unlikely) extreme.
Surely the whole point about those wanting to use a replica is that they don't wish to use one of these 'real guns still coming in'?

How does this help to stop violent crime? The criminals will just turn to "real" firearms instead of "fake" firearms.

- This is pure supposition and personal opinion.

Would it have not been better to give the Police more powers?

- I think you'll find this new Police bill comes with a variety of "new powers", as all new Police Bills invariably do.

So that they can shoot to kill without having to worry if a firearm is a replica or not and the consequences of their career?

- What you mean like the guys who recently shot that bloke carrying the wrapped table-leg and got no punishment at all?

The only people in my honest view who will suffer will be those who buy such toys for fun. If someone is going to mug someone they'll do it with access to these or not - they'll just find something else to use instead.

- Maybe.
The fact remains they won't be using one of the convincing replicas that till now have been easily available.

Good thing too IMO.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Just like drugs? That worked and does work so well.

- If you really think there is a real parallel between a 'market' overwhelmingly about the recreational and harmless personal use of drugs and that for illegal guns feel free.
I see no parallel whatsoever.

Originally posted by Odium
One quick side note:

If we get rid of Replica guns the criminals who would normally use this will either
A) Get a knife or blunt object

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- That has always been a possibility, the other possibility you have not mentioned is that without access to a realistic replica they might not commit the crime at all, hmmm?

Simple matter of fact is if someone is driven to commit a crime they will. They'll get a hold of the tools they need one way or the other if they are serious about going a head.

Originally posted by OdiumB) or: Get a gun(real) since those will still be coming into the Nation illegally.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Once again I'd suggest this is a leap to an (unlikely) extreme.
Surely the whole point about those wanting to use a replica is that they don't wish to use one of these 'real guns still coming in'?

Or the fact a Replica fire arm can cost about £20 for one that looks real and about £50 for one that fires plastic BBs or up to £150 for one that fires metal BBs and sounds like a real gun.

Where as I'm fairly sure an imported gun would cost several hundred? Probably £400ish, I can find out about this though. Also if it costs more it'll mean "Criminal A" has to do more crime to afford it, if they have been "driven" to doing an offence.

Originally posted by OdiumHow does this help to stop violent crime? The criminals will just turn to "real" firearms instead of "fake" firearms.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- This is pure supposition and personal opinion.

Finland.

Originally posted by OdiumWould it have not been better to give the Police more powers?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- I think you'll find this new Police bill comes with a variety of "new powers", as all new Police Bills invariably do.

The Police Bill should move to fix the problem and get rid of crime not punish those who are innocent.

Originally posted by Odium So that they can shoot to kill without having to worry if a firearm is a replica or not and the consequences of their career?

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- What you mean like the guys who recently shot that bloke carrying the wrapped table-leg and got no punishment at all?

I assume you're talking about Harry Stanley? If my memory serves me correctly they were in fact punished for this crime and were given a verdict of unlawful killing which they got over-turned. Having to go to the High-Court to get this done.

Also they are going back middle of this month so I'm glad you already know the verdict of the CPS report, which has yet to be issued?

Originally posted by OdiumThe only people in my honest view who will suffer will be those who buy such toys for fun. If someone is going to mug someone they'll do it with access to these or not - they'll just find something else to use instead.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- Maybe.
The fact remains they won't be using one of the convincing replicas that till now have been easily available.

Good thing too IMO.

Simple fact is; if they have been driven to do an act of crime they will do it, it won't stop them from doing it they just won't have access to a cheap weapon which can do very little harm to a person.

Originally posted by Odium
Just like drugs? That worked and does work so well.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
- If you really think there is a real parallel between a 'market' overwhelmingly about the recreational and harmless personal use of drugs and that for illegal guns feel free.
I see no parallel whatsoever.

Harmlessl? Go tell that to a heroin addict and their family. Go tell that to the people who have been victims of crime due to drug problems.

Also as of 2004 and the International Narcotics Control Board found Britain had the 3rd largest population (percentage wise) of heroin addicts in Europe. Which is only going to go up and up if Labour does not get their act together soon and will lead to more crime involving fire-arms.

Also it's fairly clear to see the "Market parallel" between drugs and guns. You're not nieve don't act like it.

Darn, there goes my whole suicide by cop idea out the window. Well instead of guns and knifes, maybe the bad guys can stock up on tasers, I hear they work rather well. And if you tase an officer then you can get his gun so its a win win situation for the bad guy all the way around. Ah, what a wonderful world we live in.

Where there are bad guys, there are weapons and all the bans in the world won't stop it. Good luck though to any new legistation around the world, at least its a try.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the replica guns.

I think it is a worthwhile thing which will also help reduce in a small way some of the, IMO, deeply unhealthy fixation we have with firearms in the UK.

Originally posted by Odium
Harmlessl? Go tell that to a heroin addict and their family. Go tell that to the people who have been victims of crime due to drug problems.

- You are using the tinniest fringe of the drugs market to paint a whole story.

Like I said, it is undeniable that by far the vast bulk of the UK drug market is harmless recreational personl use.

Also as of 2004 and the International Narcotics Control Board found Britain had the 3rd largest population (percentage wise) of heroin addicts in Europe.

- Yes I know.
Thanks to ineffective "just say no" type policies we have had in the past the UK has a heroin user population with a declining average age (ie young people are entering the 'scene' lowering the average age).

As opposed to, for instance, Holland which has a heroin user population with an average age that is rising (ie new young users are not entering the 'scene')

Which is only going to go up and up if Labour does not get their act together soon and will lead to more crime involving fire-arms.

- Labour have been far more progressive in this field than any previous gov.

(but I do not accept this heroin 'scene' is in itself connected in any major way with firearms.
Again it may be there on the fringe but I doubt it goes beyond that)

Also it's fairly clear to see the "Market parallel" between drugs and guns.

- Given the rareity of guns in the UK full stop (and don't forget our figures are inflated by those gun crimes still being reported in Northern Ireland) I think it is perfectly reasonable to call for a little proportion and a realistic view of how we actually are as opposed to how we think we are.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the replica guns.

Indeed we will. -tips hat- We'll find out in about 5 years who was right and who was wrong. I do hope it is you, really do. :-)

What next, BB guns?

i think im beggining to understand why so many people are moving abroad.

Originally posted by 87718
What next, BB guns?

- You could put someone's eye out with those!
(before finding this so ridiculous have your own child suffer this and come back and tell us all how terrible a ban would be and how vital BB guns are, hmm?)

i think im beggining to understand why so many people are moving abroad.

- S'funny the arguement is usually one about people coming in to the country, not leaving it.

I like the fact the UK has a relatively low crime rate (including gun crime); I think part of the appeal the UK has is that we are a pretty safe society compared to many.

Originally posted by Odium
Indeed we will. -tips hat-

- ......and to you too Odium.
(not a lot of point going round in circles, I think we're each pretty decided?)

We'll find out in about 5 years who was right and who was wrong. I do hope it is you, really do. :-)

- If we're both here maybe we'll recall the conversation?

Here's hoping.

posted by Sminkeylefty
You could put someone's eye out with those!
(before finding this so ridiculous have your own child suffer this and come back and tell us all how terrible a ban would be and how vital BB guns are, hmm?)!

Come on Smink, thats a lame argument! I could have your eye out with a pencil, or a knife, or if I wanted too, a cabbage!

I am understand where they are coming from on this, but I think, given the relative small number of crimes commited with any firearms, let alone replicas, that it will do more harm than good.

From your side of the fence, you think there is no need so therefore go ahead and ban it. But.....there needs to be clarification from the Gov' on this.

There is a large industry in this country of people using "replica" BB guns on weekends, similar to paintball, and it is enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people, from work party's, stag do's, through to "weekend warrior" types like me, who like to run around in the woods shooting each other. All good fun, and perfectly safe.

There is no "fixation" with guns involved here (well, a small majority of ex military types like them, but then the Gov made that way anyway!). I own a replica BB gun for pleasure, in a safe, well run environment. I never take it out with me and have never used it for anything other than it was intended

But if this ban comes in, it's another thing the Gov' have "decided" for us that is bad, without any consultation on the issue.

Is this not a democracy?

Are we not supposed to have these people rule for us, not rule over us?

Then why all these mindless, ill thought out laws, banning things left and right because they are deemed "bad for society", when in all reality, only a handful of bad eggs are spoiling things for the majority of law abiding people.

Originally posted by stumason
Come on Smink, thats a lame argument! I could have your eye out with a pencil, or a knife, or if I wanted too, a cabbage!

- Well stu I wasn't being entirely serious over that.

From your side of the fence, you think there is no need so therefore go ahead and ban it.

- I think the most accurate comment would be that I really don't care.

I really can't get incredibly worked up over the 'civil rights' of any of this but on balance I'm happy to see less guns and 'gun-like things' in our society; I think we have a real problem with it and obvious attendant casual violence attitudes here.

I think there are many many more important things to be getting worked up over......and I don't think the UK has suddenly become a fascist hell-hole just because a few things have been banned.

Is that "lefty"?

There is a large industry in this country of people using "replica" BB guns on weekends, similar to paintball, and it is enjoyed by hundreds of thousands of people, from work party's, stag do's, through to "weekend warrior" types like me, who like to run around in the woods shooting each other. All good fun, and perfectly safe.

- Funnily enough I (like tens of thousands) was on the recieving end of this kind of 'safety' ban once, too.
Not completely the same thing but it cost me about £500 in 1983 and took my only transport away (which I needed for work etc etc).
All for my own good and safety......and wider society didn't give a boll*cks.
(when the 'L' plate rules changed and you couldn't ride a 250cc bike on 'L' plates)

Back then I was deeply outraged, but after a while you get over it and even appreciate the value of it for some.

But if this ban comes in, it's another thing the Gov' have "decided" for us that is bad, without any consultation on the issue.

Is this not a democracy?

Are we not supposed to have these people rule for us, not rule over us?

- ......and what if it turns out, like many of these bans so far, that there is actual public approval for this move?

Then why all these mindless, ill thought out laws, banning things left and right because they are deemed "bad for society", when in all reality, only a handful of bad eggs are spoiling things for the majority of law abiding people.

- Same reason as always stu; rightly or wrongly it makes identifying and tackling the 'problem' easier than the alternate approach.
Not easy but easier.
Such is life.

Delete

[edit on 14/6/2005 by 87718]

Well stu I wasn't being entirely serious over that.

Yeah, I know....I wasn't being serious too ...Would take alot of work to poke you eyes out with a cabbage

I think the most accurate comment would be that I really don't care.

Thats the problem, and ties in nicely with this comment:

......and what if it turns out, like many of these bans so far, that there is actual public approval for this move?

As because people don't care, they won't bother to learn who this might affect and what will happen. They will just accept the Government spiel and say "oh well, shame, but who does it hurt? s"...You would be surprised who this will affect and it won't be the criminals who take the brunt.

In a nutshell, it is going to kill an industry and alot of peoples hobbies for the sake of a few less fake gun crimes which will be replaced by knife crimes or real gun crimes.

All bans do is remove something from law abiding peoples reach, as criminals care not for pesky laws and will get a gun if they want one.

Is that "lefty"?

Hehe...you noticed.. Sorry chap, thought I'd have a bit of fun

Funnily enough I (like tens of thousands) was on the recieving end of this kind of 'safety' ban once, too.
Not completely the same thing but it cost me about £500 in 1983 and took my only transport away (which I needed for work etc etc).
All for my own good and safety......and wider society didn't give a boll*cks.
(when the 'L' plate rules changed and you couldn't ride a 250cc bike on 'L' plates)

Back then I was deeply outraged, but after a while you get over it and even appreciate the value of it for some.

Key word there is "some".... What about the "most".....?