The only thing history will remember is how America won their war in Iraq.

Hmm. "How" exactly, yes. Fairly? Unfairly? With great cost to both or one side? History will record things according to the writers of those histories....and we know there can be two sides, and thus two histories, relating to the same incident.

Really? There are entire videos you can go pick up that are nothing but Saddam's men recording real torture, like throwing people off buildings, and hanging them by their limbs for days.

For some reason, that hasn't been the headline for any newspaper. But then papers like the New York Times run over 50 frontpage stories on Abu Ghraib.

A) Yes, such actions did make newspaper headlines too.
B) The New York Times Abu Ghraib headlines were showing actions committed BY AMERICANS. Thus, the sense of outrage was a little different, don't you agree? Most Americans would agree with the sentiment that "We're better than they are" - thus more outrage.

America's kindness is apparent in Iraq. The fact that we've stayed to help them build a stable government while loosing lives of our own only shows that kindness. The fact that we've given them freedom, and a democracy shows our kindness.

And what loyalty should we have to Europe? Europe is only free today because of America, while America had to fight its way out of Europe's control to become free in the first place.

The first part is a question of perception. If and when the Iraqi people truly have their freedom, and their freedom to CHOOSE whether they'd prefer a democracy - then it'd be a valid point. Until then, it's just more rhetoric, unfortunately. The second part is almost laughable - and no offense is meant, truly - and again, it's down to perception; it's a common perception amongst Americans that the US saved Europe - and it's just as common amongst Europeans that the US came in towards the end of things, reluctantly (and only after they'd been dragged into it), and that victory for the Allies was virtually guaranteed regardless. History shows us two sides of the same story, as it usually does.

The Iraq war is one in which both sides will gain in the end, and that doesn't America evil or immoral.

Whether Iraq will "gain", in the same terms as America might "gain", remains to be seen. But how about giving the Iraqi people a choice in it?

The Iraqis who all fled Saddam? Congress? The CIA? We know he gassed his own people. We had high ranking officials from Saddam's government defect. We have millions of Iraqi exiles around the world.

We don't need some internation organization to tell us which governments are abusive to their people.

Apparently, "we" just might. We didn't seem to be overly aware of our own government's actions....

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
I base my opinion on the fact that when many people realise even though I am white, I am not american, they become quite open and friendly towards me.

Yeah sure, they'll open up to another white 'gaijin' who really "understands" their view point? I bet!!

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
I for one would not be so naive as to ignore a drunkard's opinion.

Yeah! Good for you! So, thats why your posts were so "SPIRITED" !!

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Koizumi was elected a long time before Bush came to power.

I don't know if you are aware of this or not but Koizumi was " re-elected" just before the American elections and Koizumi won even though he said that he would continue the effort against terrorism!

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
The Japanese would much prefer to stay out of the whole mess, but this time around they were bullied into putting men on the ground as oppossed to their past tactic of just using money to secure their energy supply.

So now your accusing the Japanese of dishonesty as well, their is no end to your delusions is their??

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
The troops were scarce and the coalition was threadbare and Bush needed another country on the list to make it look like an international effort rather than highway robbery on a global scale. Cash wasn't going to cut it this time around, they were going to have to put their necks on the line!!

Firstly, most of the troops in Iraq are Americans that have 'volunteered' and also Terrorism is not only about Osama Bin Laden. Al Qaeda isn't the only terrorist group out there! Terrorism if you Europeans have forgotten is a global problem and just capturing OBL is not going to magically destroy its tentacles. Obviously you Europeans would not understand as you sit on the wall criticizing both sides but remember those who sit on the wall, always fall! You better be ready to face the consequences when you do!
To criticize Japan which has taken a pro active role for the world in which it lives in is ludicrous especially one coming from a European who just criticizes and can do in actuality NOTHING!

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
My statements about Japan are factual. If you can tell me what the Japanese refer to themselves as since they went to Iraq, I'll know that you know at least as much about Japan as I do. I doubt you know.

So that makes you an expert? I bet the people in MI 6 and NSA/CIA look for people who know what the latest drunken Jap rap is ?? Yeah!
You carry on finding out such stuff and leave the 'important' information to the rest of us who aren't "hitting the bottle" as we hear this!!

Hmm. "How" exactly, yes. Fairly? Unfairly? With great cost to both or one side? History will record things according to the writers of those histories....and we know there can be two sides, and thus two histories, relating to the same incident.

Please. Mistakes made by during war by the winning side are always glossed over later.

A) Yes, such actions did make newspaper headlines too.

Where? I never saw any.

B) The New York Times Abu Ghraib headlines were showing actions committed BY AMERICANS. Thus, the sense of outrage was a little different, don't you agree? Most Americans would agree with the sentiment that "We're better than they are" - thus more outrage.

50 frontpage stories for pretty much anything is extreme. And it wasn't just in America that this was focused on, but all over. Considering the actually lack of torture, it's a bit strange. It's also even stranger that, in spite of a complete lack of evidence, many of those stories claimed as almost fact that the American government was directly behind it, and this type of behavior was policy.

The first part is a question of perception. If and when the Iraqi people truly have their freedom, and their freedom to CHOOSE whether they'd prefer a democracy - then it'd be a valid point. Until then, it's just more rhetoric, unfortunately. The second part is almost laughable - and no offense is meant, truly - and again, it's down to perception; it's a common perception amongst Americans that the US saved Europe - and it's just as common amongst Europeans that the US came in towards the end of things, reluctantly (and only after they'd been dragged into it), and that victory for the Allies was virtually guaranteed regardless. History shows us two sides of the same story, as it usually does.

Well, since 60% Iraqis risked their lives to vote, I'd say they made it pretty clear already they want democracy and freedom.

As for the way Europeans regard history, that's more recent. I've noticed a trend in Europeans trying to change the way they remember their history as their viewpoints of America have changed.

I suppose you would prefer to thank Russia instead of America these days over there.

Whether Iraq will "gain", in the same terms as America might "gain", remains to be seen. But how about giving the Iraqi people a choice in it?

They've had elections, and they seemed to enjoy it.

Apparently, "we" just might. We didn't seem to be overly aware of our own government's actions....

What actions are you talking about? There has been absolutely no proof that torture is being carried out by the American government. The press and groups like the Red Cross have been allowed into the prisons.

The fact that, even after digging, Abu Ghraib was pretty much the worst cases of abuse they could prove only shows how weak their claims are.

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
So what European countries did hundreds of years ago makes it alright for amerika to go off on it's colonial adventures....whoops....I meant spreading "freedom" and "democracy" throughout the world?? Talk about hypocrisy....

Well just about all of them, like;
Italy, Spain, France, Uk, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Portuagal, Greece, Scandinavia( Vikings!). How many more names do you want? Are there any more " psuedo- noninterventionalists" in your camp??
The very fact that you can ask such a question is laughable and extreemly arrogant!! But thats the way Europeans are!

[edit on 14-6-2005 by IAF101]

Erm, I think he was referring to the actions committed by European nations in the past not being ones that should occur again. Not asking for a list of former colonial empires, of which he seems perfectly well aware.

Goes to show how easy it is to get the wrong end of the stick!

Stop the insults and address the issues.

Petty bickering is not settling any dispute or building any bridges.

Jak

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

The sooner we start to recognise - and more importantly, act upon - that notion, the sooner we can start behaving like civilized humans. Sure, "they" have to do the same - I'm not saying for one second that the Allies/whoever are the only ones at fault here - but it has to start somewhere.

Why must we wait?

Because my dear bourgeois, they do not understand the concept of forgiveness and mercy. Just as they don't understand the concept of religious and political freedoms, they are medieval people who are only preoccupied with what they have lost and how others are to blame. Also they do not understand that religion and politics are two completely different concepts, they believe that every action taken by America is 'against the Muslims' and our presence in the Gulf is to 'defile' and 'pervert' their religion and region!
How can we, with such vast ideological differences even begin to understand each other and work out a feasible solution.
Are you aware that in Iran if a person is found guilty the prosecution can dictate the defendants punishment, that is just revenge, how do you suppose we deal with a culture that does not consider women to belong to the human race?
I think we should communicate in a language that they can understand and our western values of peace and compassion are just seen as western weakness and western idiosyncrasies.

Originally posted by DenyAllKnowledge

Erm, I think he was referring to the actions committed by European nations in the past not being ones that should occur again. Not asking for a list of former colonial empires, of which he seems perfectly well aware.

Goes to show how easy it is to get the wrong end of the stick!

DenyAllKnowledge
If you care to read up my posts previously I claim that Europe has no right to accuse America of Colonialism when it has resorted to colonialism for the better part of the last millennium. I have never stated that what America is engaged is colonialism and that it supports colonialism but European criticism about Americas policy of pre-emtive action against confirmed terrorist states and calling it as colonialistic is farfetched at best! Also with such perfidious pasts calling America as a colonialist power is ludicrous as all America is doing is protecting the lives of its citizens from the powers that seek to destroy the American way of life and its freedoms!

Originally posted by IAF101

Originally posted by Tinkleflower

The sooner we start to recognise - and more importantly, act upon - that notion, the sooner we can start behaving like civilized humans. Sure, "they" have to do the same - I'm not saying for one second that the Allies/whoever are the only ones at fault here - but it has to start somewhere.

Why must we wait?

Because my dear bourgeois, they do not understand the concept of forgiveness and mercy. Just as they don't understand the concept of religious and political freedoms, they are medieval people who are only preoccupied with what they have lost and how others are to blame. Also they do not understand that religion and politics are two completely different concepts, they believe that every action taken by America is 'against the Muslims' and our presence in the Gulf is to 'defile' and 'pervert' their religion and region!
How can we, with such vast ideological differences even begin to understand each other and work out a feasible solution.
Are you aware that in Iran if a person is found guilty the prosecution can dictate the defendants punishment, that is just revenge, how do you suppose we deal with a culture that does not consider women to belong to the human race?
I think we should communicate in a language that they can understand and our western values of peace and compassion are just seen as western weakness and western idiosyncrasies.

Wow. Way to oversimplify and overgeneralise an entire population.

Western ways of peace and compassion? Which would these be, again? Ok, that was a little facetious - I'll retract that and instead ask, "Perhaps if we could show a valid example of our Western peace and compassion, such might be recognised elsewhere?"

Didn't intend it to sound confrontational, sorry if it was taken that way. I was just pointing out that I thought howmuchisthedoggy's statement was misinterpreted.

As has already been observed this thread seems to have collapsed into a mud-slinging match (and not the saucy "hot" type at that!), and it's going in circles.

To voice my opinion on the subject of this thread I'd say that Western Europe is indeed becoming somewhat anti-American, but more for political reasons (and possibly a feeling of impotence in the face of the US), rather than "Old World" snobbery or elitism. We should hope to learn from errors in the past, but unfortunately we have the rather irritating ability to constantly repeat our mistakes, oh well.

adieu!

Originally posted by IAF101
Yeah sure, they'll open up to another white 'gaijin' who really "understands" their view point? I bet!!

Dude, you'd be surprised the doors that open up to you when you are not an American in Japan!!!

So now your accusing the Japanese of dishonesty as well, their is no end to your delusions is their??

Wah? Seriously, how are you able to misinterpret me so badly?

To criticize Japan which has taken a pro active role for the world in which it lives in is ludicrous especially one coming from a European who just criticizes and can do in actuality NOTHING!

I don't remember criticizing them. I just stated they had no desire to be there in the first place.

If you can tell me what the Japanese refer to themselves as since they went to Iraq, I'll know that you know at least as much about Japan as I do.

So that makes you an expert?

No, it doesn't make me an expert. However, as you never answered my challenge, it shows you as being even less of an expert. So until you can answer my question, my conversation about Japan with you is over. I have no desire to go around in circles with you anymore, as you counter any good points I make with misinterpretations for your own devices.

I bet the people in MI 6 and NSA/CIA look for people who know what the latest drunken Jap rap is ?? Yeah!
You carry on finding out such stuff and leave the 'important' information to the rest of us who aren't "hitting the bottle" as we hear this!!

Man, what is your obsession with drunk Japanese people? I was really puzzled about this as my original post had not mentioned anything about my sources being drunk?

Then I realised; Your only knowledge of Japan came from watching The Karate Kid on tv!!! Listen, it's only a movie. Mr. Miyagi didn't really need to get drunk to let his true feelings be known!

Wax on! Wax off!

I find it amazing that so many Pro-Bushies get so angry all the time. Very un-nerving. Either that, or the personal attacks are the ones I like best. It would be funny if it were so sad to see humans acting like that.

Could we all start from a position that we all want whats best for all parties envolved and we just have different idea's of the best way to accomplish this, or is that too much of a liberal attitude?

I am not sure if this thread can be pulled back from the brink of a flame war, so I will wipe the slate clean and not address any of the previous convuleted arguments.

Instead, lets address the main points in a civilized manner.

Why is Europe so Anti-American?

The main contentions on the European side seem to be that:
1) American power and influence is too great.
2) The Iraq war was unjustified.
3) American colonial aspirations are at work.
4) American media are biased.
5) America flouts international conventions when it suits them.
6) The Americans should reign in their corporations.

Please feel free to add to this list.

The American response to the above points seems to be:
1) That's too bad, we're no.1. Just be thankful we are a kind and benevolent superpower. It could have been the soviets/nazis.
2) No WMDs were found, but a dictator is being held responsible for crimes against humanity, democracy is taking root, the oil supply is more secure, so not all bad? Why are Europeans getting so riled over a small thing like no WMDs?
3) America has no wish to be a colonial power. Europeans are just jealous as their colonial days are long over.
4) American media are liberal and against the administration or at least are not in any way biased.
5) International conventions/organizations flipflop, don't get the job done and are thus unworthy of our attention.
6) We are paying for the war, none of you stood up to the plate, so we deserve the biggest cut of the pie to cover our expenses for actions which benefit the whole world, not just America.

The Euro-camp then respond to the American points thus:
1) The result of WWII was a team-effort. America had a massive role to play in victory, to which many Europeans are still thankful. It's just after 60 odd years, as a currency it has devalued. Europe is a very different place now.
Add a stinging fact that the current administration has family links to people who financed the Nazis and Hitler in the first place, this tends to deduct Brownie points from the argument, and only serves to insult people and countries who lost much during the war.
2) Saddam is gone, everyone is happy. No WMDs were found, no real big problem, he probably would have tried to get some regardless. However, this invasion set a very dangerous precedent. War is a serious business and to declare it on the flimsiest of evidence, pushing it through despite public opinion, sets standards that you have to admit would worry the rest of the world. You declare benevolence, yet you invade on a whim.
3) The days of overt colonial control are long gone. The Europeans had their day in the sun, the British Empire spanned the globe. But no more. Our (well hang on.....I'm actually Irish, Ireland was a former British colony) colonial days are gone. We actually exercise covert control of former colonies through the banking system. ALL former colonies. Including the US.
4) Our impression of the media in the US compared to our own, is that they cowtow to the administration and never hold their feet to the fire. We have a very low opinion of network news.
5) International co-operation is the way forward as far as we are concerned, but Bush came into power in 2000 and started flouting them left, right and center. And you don't understand why we are annoyed?
Paying lip service to organisations such as AI, until they disagree with you is hypocritical.
6) Okay, business-wise of course the US has to look after itself. Our corporations would probably do the same. The only thing that worries the Europeans is how close the military and industry are in the US and how what each does influences the other. We feel this military-industrial complex is one of the most dangerous forces on the planet.

Okay, sorry long post.

Thoughts and opinions please, let's try and keep it civil, shall we?

Nice post Doggy. I did notice that the way you phrased how the Euro's feel seemed so calm and logical yet how the Americans feel seem arrogant. I will say, I am noticing quite a heavy trend on this site of Euro vs American, especially British. I am actually disappointed but every country that has ever been in the lime light in history faces being the big bad guy. There was a time when the British empire was feared and not well liked in many parts of the world. Sure, like any country on this planet, America has made it share of mistakes and has also contributed good things from time to time. The tides will shift again in history and America will not be on top and then perhaps Europe and American may find themselves holding hands against the next big nation to flex its muscle.

Originally posted by Memorialday1999
I did notice that the way you phrased how the Euro's feel seemed so calm and logical yet how the Americans feel seem arrogant.

Reading over it again, I see what you mean. It was not intended. If any Americans can remake my points more eloquently, I would be grateful!

every country that has ever been in the lime light in history faces being the big bad guy. Sure, like any country on this planet, America has made it share of mistakes and has also contributed good things from time to time. The tides will shift again in history and America will not be on top and then perhaps Europe and American may find themselves holding hands against the next big nation to flex its muscle.

Excellent points being made here. If we can just get past the nastiness for a little bit and stop attacking each other, maybe we can accomplish something, yes? I don't remember any empire in history being universally well regarded. If it was, it wouldn't have disappeared, right?

Very true Doggy. No one ever "leads" or "follows" for too long of a time. American cannot continue to go from country to country for much longer as we have our own domestic issues that will have to be addressed sooner or later. Plus, I think we are running out of military people so there is only so far we can spread out.

Honestly though, yes I am republican and yes I was for the war but even some of us old stubborn conservatives are getting just plain dang tired. A "war on terrorism" could last until the end of earth so eventually we have to stop calling it war, re-group and work with other countries on "operations" against terrorism. Only an international front can even begin to address and hope to reduce the threat. It is becoming pretty clear that the agressive move is no longer working. It is sorta like dealing with a teenager, you can yell and scream till you are blue in the face but at some point, you have to find another angle to get through to the kid.