Western Europe becoming more and more anti-American?

Originally posted by Passer By
[...] there is some historical evidense of it happening in the past hasn't there? One nation sacrifacing their own people to get a more valuable need/want?

For those Americans out there who are feeling particularly safe in their country, and feel that Bush has done the right thing in this so-called 'War on Terror' - perhaps I might suggest you go and research something called Operation Northwoods... If you can't see the similarities between the Operation Northwoods and 9/11 and even comparing that to the Reichstag Fire

But the statement about "You should know when their is a problem in your country, when your own friends start telling you so..." - I agree with this 110% - and I think the general US populous finds it incredibly hard to dis-associate themselves from their government, so keeping this in mind, I beg those Americans who have the slightest inclining that their government is screwing them over - to take up the fight, and realise the rug of freedom is only minutes away from being yanked from beneath you...

Originally posted by finnman68
Quote:
I am not sure so maybe I am wrong, but there is some historical evidense of it happening in the past hasn't there? One nation sacrifacing their own people to get a more valuable need/want?

Are you saying that america has done something like this in the past. I've never heard any such thing that an american has done to his own country men and women. so what are trying to say that about?

[edit on 8-6-2005 by finnman68]

Does it have to be America? The point I was trying to make is that it wouldn't be the first time some country did that, accepting that to be true, then isn't it illogical to think people motivated by the same things would chose to do the same thing given the same chioces?

Once again maybe I am wrong and all governments have looked after their citizens with the kindness, compassion and respect that they deseve......

Ahhhhh, one must always take the time to laugh...

Cheers mate.

Originally posted by deltaboy
If it becomes law, the measure also would bar other conspicuous religious symbols, including Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses. The commission spent six months studying the issue and held 120 hearings

- Ah yes, I remember this part of it now.

So with this measure they have banned "conspicuous religious symbols" when the kids are in school.
So what?

Keeps it all non-sectarian and fair doesn't it?

Originally posted by CTID56092
Yes we are undoubtably becoming more anti-american.

It's many things (Kyoto, spy bases, cultural and military imperialism, starbucks, globalisation, contempt for the UN, the ICC, your interference in EU affairs, your arrogant view of your right to dominate the world and beyond - Galileo etc, GM crops, starbucks (again) etc etc.)

The problem as I see it is people across the world especially Europeans, have stereotyped America and Americans. This maybe due to insouciant American policy through out the 80's and 90's but this attitude has only has only help breed global insecurity and instability. Europeans are of the attitude that Americans are endemically hedonistic and that we will continue with our self-indulgence onto eternity. They feel that our arrogance stems from our wealth and our military might but they do not understand that we began as modest children of a peaceful nation and we still are!
I want to quote a part of the speech that Bush gave after 9/11;
" Tonight, we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done. "
We didn't want to act like the way we do now, we don't want to spend billions on policing the world, we don't want to put our friends & family in harms way in places like IRAQ and we certainly don't want to live in fear. But these are not our choices but the card fate has dealt to us and we must play our hand.
We defended our ideals, our belief in democracy is absolute and our commitment towards Freedom will not waver in the face of criticism.
Europeans such as yourself believe that what America is doing now is autocratic and arrogant but who will bring together the Freedom loving nations of the world and form a coalition to tackle this menace that is terrorism? THE EU?? Not Likely!! The EU is basically a neo-colonial plutocratic institution and its pull is merely economic, more over the EU is incapable of uniting even its members on something so basic as a constitution. How can we even begin to imagine that it will have some sway over nations from other nations?
Their is only one nation in the world that can possibly bring about a meaningful coalition against the world and that would be the USA, we have a right to ensure the safety of our people and ALSO a duty to the world to answer the call of freedom, from people plagued with tyranny.
It is just as easy to criticize and demonize the good intentions of a nation with purpose as it is to selectively marginalise and malign its leaders. The main reason for this is because not all Americans are true to their nation, the liberals and democrats still long for the yester years in America where the White house had transformed into a den of debauchery and grandstanding. They lend support to the 'dysfunctional disgruntled' of the world in spreading a smear campaign against America and its leader. They unknowingly degrade themselves in this endeavor to garner the 'rebel vote'.

Originally posted by CTID56092
your arrogant view of your right to dominate the world and beyond.. ...

Let me ask you this question; Who do you think is going to clean up the mess the world is in if we all especially America don't play a more proactive and engaging role in tackling global problems?
What has OUR insouciance brought us? Can your nation step up and clean the mess the world is in today and ensure an end to terrorism? The answer is NO!
Therefore as the world’s only super power it is our right and duty to promote security and safety in the world, it is our duty to ensure that the greater cause of freedom is always served. Even though most might see this as unilateral but sidelining the UN is the best thing to happen in our recent times as the blame lies squarely on Kofi Anann and his ad hoc directorship.
Do not preach to us about arrogance and world domination, it was not the USA that was hell bent on subjugating over half the world's populace to meet some petty need of self glorification for a better part of the last millenium.

Originally posted by CTID56092
When your friends get concerned about you it's normally a sign that something's wrong.

Your concern is unwarranted since what you are concerned about is an individual and individuals change ideals dont!!
I would like to close by qutoing President Harry S Truman ;
"Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive."

IAF101, in what parallel universe do you live in??

You don't seem to live in ours.

Your post is purely philosophical and has very little to do with reality.

Do you seriously think that goverments of today are motivated by some altruistic greater good like bringing freedom to world full of tyranny??

The problem as I see it is people across the world especially Europeans, have stereotyped America and Americans.

Yet this thread shows otherwise. In fact, YOU are the one sterotyping here.

This maybe due to insouciant American policy through out the 80's and 90's but this attitude has only has only help breed global insecurity and instability

The world pretty much worshipped Americans at the end of the 90s. Cinton brought PEACE, END of war, in Bosnia, he brought peace to Israel/Palestine, he talked with Iran, China, he signed INTERNATIONAL treaties... list goes on and on. The american policy of the 90s is the reason you had the WHOLE world unite with you after 9/11 in the fight against terror, including most islamic countries. There was and still is a world wide coalition to fight war on terror, the actual war on terror... remember? Al-Qaeda? bin Laden? That terror.

The world in which you seem to reside now in your head, is this strange philosophical quest to bring light where there is darkness and other poetic babble.


The real world is a world much much more complicated, full of nuances, shades, and more then 6 billion people, all individuals, living in over 200 nations with over a dozen different political systems, religions, leaders, parties, wars, treaties, aliances, problems, economies, systems.

There is no simplified world of absolute good vs. absolute evil.
Not in the universe we live in.

Originally posted by IAF101
The problem as I see it is people across the world especially Europeans, have stereotyped America and Americans. This maybe due to insouciant American policy through out the 80's and 90's but this attitude has only has only help breed global insecurity and instability.

but this attitude has only has only help breed global insecurity

Your mastery of the english language amazes me.

Attacking nations diplomatically and globally has brought about global stability then?

The problem as I see it is people across the world especially Europeans, have stereotyped America and Americans

At least you're not steroetyping anyway, oh no, wait:

Europeans are of the attitude that Americans are endemically hedonistic and that we will continue with our self-indulgence onto eternity. They feel that our arrogance stems from our wealth and our military might but they do not understand that we began as modest children of a peaceful nation and we still are!

we began as modest children of a peaceful nation and we still are!

I want to quote a part of the speech that Bush gave after 9/11;

Oh, please don't

" Tonight, we are a country awakened to danger and called to defend freedom. Our grief has turned to anger and anger to resolution. Whether we bring our enemies to justice or bring justice to our enemies, justice will be done. "

So they've captured OBL then? How has justice been done? Words, nothing more.

We didn't want to act like the way we do now, we don't want to spend billions on policing the world, we don't want to put our friends & family in harms way in places like IRAQ and we certainly don't want to live in fear.

Then don't. Iraq was your choice, you live with the consequences, but if you're not man enough......

But these are not our choices but the card fate has dealt to us and we must play our hand.

No, those are the choices you have taken and you must live with the consequences.

We defended our corporations right to make money from death and misery, our belief in cold hard cash is absolute and our commitment towards money will not waver in the face of criticism.

Corrections highlighted in bold.

Europeans such as yourself believe that what America is doing now is autocratic and arrogant but who will bring together the Freedom loving nations of the world and form a coalition to tackle this menace that is terrorism?

Hmm, tough one, who was doing it while the american people were funding the IRA? More people die from gun crime than terrorism in the US, how are you going to tackle that menace? Silly me, there's no petro-dollar hegemony in gun crime.

THE EU??

Not Likely!! The EU is basically a neo-colonial plutocratic institution and its pull is merely economic, more over the EU is incapable of uniting even its members on something so basic as a constitution.

Ah, I get it now, you're playing the ignorant stupid moron role. Well done, you fooled me there for a while, I was really starting to think you were a dumbass.

How can we even begin to imagine on in the world that can possibly bring about a meaningful coalition against the world and that would be the USA

That doesn't actually make any sense. Placing words randomly into text doesn't make for good reading.

we have a right to ensure the safety of our people and ALSO a duty to the world to answer the call of freedom, from people plagued with tyranny.

Ah, we agree! You do have the right to ensure the safety of your citizens. As for this nebulous 'call of freedom', is it something only americans can see? Is it something like the Bat signal in the sky? Is it a big oil pump with a dollar sign over it projected onto the clouds?

It is just as easy to criticize and demonize the good intentions of a nation with purpose as it is to selectively marginalise and malign its leaders.

Yep, I would question 'good intentions' though. As for maligning leaders, you were very gracious when Chirac said no, weren't you?

The main reason for this is because not all Americans are true to their nation, the liberals and democrats still long for the yester years in America where the White house had transformed into something the world respected

Fixed in bold

They lend support to the 'dysfunctional disgruntled' of the world in spreading a smear campaign against America and its leader. They unknowingly degrade themselves in this endeavor to garner the 'rebel vote'.

bush-monkey is doing a good enough job of smearing himself.

[quote]Let me ask you this question; Who do you think is going to clean up the mess the world is in if we all especially America don't play a more proactive and engaging role in tackling global problems?

Hmm, let me see, maybe the citizens of that country.

What has OUR insouciance brought us?

When you can answer that you might be halfway there.

Can your nation step up and clean the mess the world is in today and ensure an end to terrorism? The answer is NO!

Can your nation step up and make a mess the world today and ensure a more recruits to terrorism? The answer is YES!

Therefore as the world’s only super power it is our right and duty to promote security and safety in the world, it is our duty to ensure that the greater cause of freedom is always served. Even though most might see this as unilateral but sidelining the UN is the best thing to happen in our recent times as the blame lies squarely on Kofi Anann and his ad hoc directorship.

Fair enough, if that's what you choose to do don't come pissing and moaning to the rest of us (like you are now) when it goes pear shaped.

Do not preach to us about arrogance and world domination

You already know all about that, huh?

it was not the USA that was hell bent on subjugating over half the world's populace to meet some petty need of self glorification for a better part of the last millenium.

Well, that could be anybody but is money for a few of bush-monkey's mates a better reason?

Your concern is unwarranted since what you are concerned about is an individual and individuals change ideals dont!!

Tsk, grammar man, grammar.

I would like to close by qutoing President Harry S Truman ;
"Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive."

And I would like to close by quoting Ghandi

originally posted by Ghandi

An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind

A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave

CMCG
You made the whole point of this post. It just shows that Western Europeans are becoming more anti-American, and what proof do you have that the US government or citizens funded the IRA?


[edit on 11-6-2005 by finnman68]

Originally posted by finnman68
CMCG
You made the whole point of this post. It just shows that Western Europeans are becoming more anti-American, and what proof do you have that the US government or citizens funded the IRA?

I was fairly anti-american until I realised that most americans are good-hearted, sensible people and that the views represented by a minority of US citizens on ATS are just that, a minority. People are the same the world over. They want to care for their families, put food on the table for their children and just live their lives the best way they can.

As for me making the whole point of the post, it's all in your head. Extremists are searching around for someone to project their insecurites onto. We've had NK, Iran, France, China and now the whole of western europe. You may need an enemy in your sights at all times but most people in the world do not think that way.

Sure, we disagree with a lot of the foreign policies of the current US administration but that doesn't make us 'anti-US'. In the same vein, a US citizen who disagrees with government policy is not 'anti-US' or a US hater. Try and find a clear separation between yourself and your government. People disagreeing with govt policy is normal and healthy and good.

Abe Lincoln once said:

You may deceive all the people part of the time, and part of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time.

You're never going to make everyone happy, labelling them as enemies/traitors or anti-american because they disagree on something is counter-productive and makes you seem small.

If you have faith in your judgement then it matters not what any man may say.


p.s.

www.victims.org.uk...
www.timesonline.co.uk...
www.freedominst.org...
news.bbc.co.uk...

Let me put the record straight , I'm talking for myself and not for Europe but I'm afraid Americans are seen as warmongering thick people thats only vote for idiots like George Bush. If you elected someone with a brain we might think better of you . We don't hate you only your Government.

Let me put the record straight , I'm talking for myself and not for Europe but I'm afraid Americans are seen as warmongering thick people thats only vote for idiots like George Bush. If you elected someone with a brain we might think better of you . We don't hate you only your Government.

Right. You don't hate us, you just think you're smarter than us. That's just so much better...

As for me making the whole point of the post, it's all in your head. Extremists are searching around for someone to project their insecurites onto. We've had NK, Iran, France, China and now the whole of western europe. You may need an enemy in your sights at all times but most people in the world do not think that way.

You see, you talk about how you just dislike our administration, but then you make statements that address the whole nation such as these.

And it's funny that you'd state that America has to go looking for enemies. Couldn't I just say that the rest of the world is doing the same with America? For the rest of the world, what easier target for their anger than America?

I suppose it's only the American people with a strange habit like that, though...

Sure, we disagree with a lot of the foreign policies of the current US administration but that doesn't make us 'anti-US'. In the same vein, a US citizen who disagrees with government policy is not 'anti-US' or a US hater. Try and find a clear separation between yourself and your government. People disagreeing with govt policy is normal and healthy and good.

If only you guys just disagreed with policy. As I said long ago in this topic, Europeans have managed to find fault in just about everything America does. Apparently, our charity isn't even good enough anymore, as you've found fault in that even while it's multiplied under Bush.

I'd say many of the complaints of Europe are simply irrational.

The world pretty much worshipped Americans at the end of the 90s. Cinton brought PEACE, END of war, in Bosnia, he brought peace to Israel/Palestine, he talked with Iran, China, he signed INTERNATIONAL treaties... list goes on and on. The american policy of the 90s is the reason you had the WHOLE world unite with you after 9/11 in the fight against terror, including most islamic countries. There was and still is a world wide coalition to fight war on terror, the actual war on terror... remember? Al-Qaeda? bin Laden? That terror.

Wow...Could you glorify Clinton anymore? He didn't even actually achieve most of what you say. When was this peace between Israel and Palestine? I'd say the closest we've come to that has been under Bush.

Most of the stuff you talked about was controversial in Europe, and down right pissed off the rest of the world. One doesn't have to look past Kosovo to see that.

I guess the world is fine with American intervention, as long as it comes under a liberal Democrat instead of a conservative like Bush.

No, what he said, IMO, looked like it was directed at policy of the US, which is really the government not the people. Joe Blow isn't making decisions. The government is. That is how I saw it anyway....

Disturbed, seriously when a large part of the free world thinks one way - and the US government thinks another - what are the chances that all are corrupted or just one? Obviously just one is easier than many right? Logic. If that one, has huge ties to oil, and big business, and has in the past shown himself to lie and be decietfull doesn't that only magnify the logical problem you pointing forth?

All the worlds porblems are not caused by the US, and on Sept 12, the entire world was with America bar none. The continued refusal to realize it has been what America has done since that has caused these feelings - and those actions that caused these feelings, more and more look like a lie. Yet there is still defence for this. I don't get it.

As for the American Charity - they are generally loans. When you use your Visa is that Charity? No, because you have to pay it back. Same thing with muxh of what the US seems to want to call Charity. Not that that in itself is wrong. If a country is in trouble and needs cash and you lend them the cash it doens't make you evil. When you call it charity, it makes you a lier though.

Once again, remember. 9/12 the entire world was willing to march and kill those that did that to you. Today, there is some question on whether or not America can even be the only Superpower.

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. So true IMO.

Disturbed, seriously when a large part of the free world thinks one way - and the US government thinks another - what are the chances that all are corrupted or just one? Obviously just one is easier than many right? Logic. If that one, has huge ties to oil, and big business, and has in the past shown himself to lie and be decietfull doesn't that only magnify the logical problem you pointing forth?

The entire free world doesn't disagree with America. It seems to just be Western Europe. America is actually thought of well in Eastern Europe, the ones who have actually seen opression and tyranny.

And it's funny you'd mention America's lies, and oil connections. At least America has never gone so far as to support genocide (at worst), or at the very least prevent anyone from stoping genocide as various Western European nations are doing with the Sudan.

But then, it's much easier to focus on America's war with Iraq, which one could argue is at least bringing some form of freedom to the Iraqi people.

If one goes through places like Africa, you'll find that Western Europeans are not thought of very highly at all, and many prefer America.

All the worlds porblems are not caused by the US, and on Sept 12, the entire world was with America bar none. The continued refusal to realize it has been what America has done since that has caused these feelings - and those actions that caused these feelings, more and more look like a lie. Yet there is still defence for this. I don't get it.

Yea, the world talked real flowery to us after 9/11, didn't they? How much ACTUAL support did they give us, though? How many troops were actually sent to Afghanistan? The amount of contribution there has been minimal.

As for the American Charity - they are generally loans. When you use your Visa is that Charity? No, because you have to pay it back. Same thing with muxh of what the US seems to want to call Charity. Not that that in itself is wrong. If a country is in trouble and needs cash and you lend them the cash it doens't make you evil. When you call it charity, it makes you a lier though.

Sorry, but American aid does not have to be paid back. There is a difference between what America gives in loans and charity. One couldn't call it charity if it had to be paid back.

And I was specifically referring to what we give for AIDS. It amazes me that in places like Frane Bush is met with protests basically calling him a murderer, and not for his policy in Iraq, but for how he wishes America's aid to be used in Africa.

Well Disturbed we can always agree to disagree but the facts are that Western Europe, Canada and the like have been shoulder brothers with teh US UNTIL they went into Iraq. Why? Despite claims that it is people are "anti-US", it was because we saw there was no reason to go. The reasons were lies, and those that knew they were lies told you(The American people), The media claimed it was because we were Anti-US, but anyone who looked at history knows this present gap in beleif's started exactly when America invaded Iraq.

So where is the problem? Because America when into Iraq. Not anti-US, not Anti-Democracy, or anti-freedom or anything else. It is because you guys are acting like bullies. That is it.

As for what people in Estern Europe and Africa feel about Western Europe in relation to America - Well, Africa is understandle Western Europe, the white culture in general, has been horrible to Africa and really needs to help out there. How, when and why are all major problems agreed. However, how they feel about one group of oppressors over another is somewhat irrelevent.I'll tell you a more telling opinion though. How about Bin Ladin's? I bet he likes America more than Western Europe. He has hated and was an enemy of Saddam forever, now that Saddam is gone they have a big opening. How about that opinion, and still more relevent than anyone in Africa right?

America never attempted genocide? You really don't want me to show you that do you? The complete decimation of most of the plains indians, does that ring any bells?

Charity is nice, if there is string then there is no charity and if you can find one time that any nation did that - good on ya, because that just doesn't seem to be in any governments interest.

My points still stand. The world was with you until Iraq. Claims can be made that it is because of being anti this or that, but the facts are it happened right when America invade Iraq - all the rest is just to try and draw the American peoles attention from the HUGE clusterf#$k that Bush has gotten you into and the lies behind it. You can't impeach him while you are dutifully trying to defend actions you own commander in Cheif has lied to you about. I love American patriotism, I really wish Canada had more of it, however sometimes it plays against you guys IMO.

Well Disturbed we can always agree to disagree but the facts are that Western Europe, Canada and the like have been shoulder brothers with teh US UNTIL they went into Iraq. Why? Despite claims that it is people are "anti-US", it was because we saw there was no reason to go. The reasons were lies, and those that knew they were lies told you(The American people), The media claimed it was because we were Anti-US, but anyone who looked at history knows this present gap in beleif's started exactly when America invaded Iraq.

Yea, you said this already. But what is this support you keep talking about? The few hundred troops you guys sent for Afghanistan? You never gave us more then you had to.

And you present a clearly one-sided view. One could make a very convincing argument that those nations who opposed us pretty much all had alterior motives. Sorry, but France, Russia, Germany, and China were all receiving huge bribes from Saddam. They were being granted large oil contracts. They also all changed their views on UN sanctions throughout the 90's.

What a coincidence that all is, right? But then again, only America would ever act out of alterior motives. We're the only ones who would believe lies from our government...

So where is the problem? Because America when into Iraq. Not anti-US, not Anti-Democracy, or anti-freedom or anything else. It is because you guys are acting like bullies. That is it.

And we weren't bullies in the 90's when we bombed the hell out of Kosovo? OH, and where were all of those mass graves that were supposed to be there? The body counts were widely inflated to gain support for that war. Afterwards only some 5,000 were discovered dead. You know what? There are some 300,000 in mass graves in Iraq.

Then, that's different because we had Western Europe's support, right?

As for what people in Estern Europe and Africa feel about Western Europe in relation to America - Well, Africa is understandle Western Europe, the white culture in general, has been horrible to Africa and really needs to help out there. How, when and why are all major problems agreed. However, how they feel about one group of oppressors over another is somewhat irrelevent.

I think the problem is Africa doesn't want your help, because you just keep screwing them over. Just go take a look at the Ivory Coast. That's just another example of where Western Europe likes to ignore crimes committed by their own, though. How much attention did the alleged massacres of protesters receive in Europe? I know the BBC sure hid that story, yet car bombings in Iraq are headlines pretty much daily.

Then you have what's going on in the Sudan. You could also take a look at who was behind what happened in Rwanda, where France trained the milita who carried out the genocide, aided in their escape, and continues to hide those responsible today. How much attention does that get over in Europe? Well, probably almost none, just like it does over here from our liberal media.

I'll tell you a more telling opinion though. How about Bin Ladin's? I bet he likes America more than Western Europe. He has hated and was an enemy of Saddam forever, now that Saddam is gone they have a big opening. How about that opinion, and still more relevent than anyone in Africa right?

Saddam gave up being a secularist ruler after the Gulf War, and was prepared to kiss ass of the likes of Bin Laden to gain the support of the more radical factions. His entire policy changed after the Gulf War. What you say is simply false.

America never attempted genocide? You really don't want me to show you that do you? The complete decimation of most of the plains indians, does that ring any bells?

Very little of what happened to the Indians was actually intentional. Most died simply of disease. And it's funny you'd dig so far to find bad things done by America, since at the same time we were pushing the Indians further West, Europe was still colonizing the world. The atrocities commited by America don't even compare to Europe at this time.

The difference is, you can't find examples of America supporting actual genocide in modern times, while I've given two occasions in just the past decade where Western European nations have done it.

Charity is nice, if there is string then there is no charity and if you can find one time that any nation did that - good on ya, because that just doesn't seem to be in any governments interest.

Um, what exactly your point? If America is looking to buy some interest in Africa with charity, it's no different then what anyone else is doing. It certainly doesn't excuse Europeans insulting us when we tripple the amount of aid we give for aids.

My points still stand. The world was with you until Iraq. Claims can be made that it is because of being anti this or that, but the facts are it happened right when America invade Iraq - all the rest is just to try and draw the American peoles attention from the HUGE clusterf#$k that Bush has gotten you into and the lies behind it. You can't impeach him while you are dutifully trying to defend actions you own commander in Cheif has lied to you about. I love American patriotism, I really wish Canada had more of it, however sometimes it plays against you guys IMO.

Once again, what support did you guys actually give us in Afghanistan?

Well, if you want to look at a per capita, Canada did send quite a few to Afganni, in fact still quite a few troops there now. However, you are still missing the point, Afganni, whether there were alot of troops or a few, the world was with you. In Iraq it wasn't. There is no amount of playing with idea's or confusing the issue that will change that.

As for whether it was right or wrong in Kosovo, that was determined by the UN, and agreed apun by the court. I didn't agree with it, however, when people decide to have a rule of law, it is imparitive that you go with the rule of law even when you have a personal problem with it. America could have chose toopt out I beleive as it is every countries right to do so. In the end, the UN agreed and the US agreed and that is that.. In Iraq, the UN said no, most of your friends said no. The US said yes because of this information, and now that information has turned out to be flase, and worse, your president lied about it. Once again, no amount id distractions, or confusing the isse will change that.

It seems to me that AMerican people know they have been played like a cheap piano, but they refuse to say it, or acknowledge it because it hurts their vaunted ego too much. The same way Vietnam turned into a conflict instead of a war - it is purely symantics to help the American ego. I have no problems with that, but to no be aware of it is determental to the whole IMO.

There is an old Irish saying I beleive that goes "Those that push you into mud are not neccesarily your enemy, and those that help you out of of mud are not neccesarily your friends". What that always ment to me is that the world is more complex than most are aware, and what things look like on the surface are seldom the truth. This "Anti-US" drivel is just another smoke screen to hide the underlying problems. It is easier to say someone is just anti-US, to dismiss them, rather than having to take that hard look in the mirror.

Just remember, if you walk around like a tough guy, you can't cry foul when someone hits back. It is the law of life.

Well, if you want to look at a per capita, Canada did send quite a few to Afganni, in fact still quite a few troops there now. However, you are still missing the point, Afganni, whether there were alot of troops or a few, the world was with you. In Iraq it wasn't. There is no amount of playing with idea's or confusing the issue that will change that.

Um, bull? You guys can give far more than a few hundred troops. You could give a lot more cash. You gave the bare minimum. It was pretty much worthless what most of our "allies" gave.

As for whether it was right or wrong in Kosovo, that was determined by the UN, and agreed apun by the court. I didn't agree with it, however, when people decide to have a rule of law, it is imparitive that you go with the rule of law even when you have a personal problem with it. America could have chose toopt out I beleive as it is every countries right to do so. In the end, the UN agreed and the US agreed and that is that.. In Iraq, the UN said no, most of your friends said no. The US said yes because of this information, and now that information has turned out to be flase, and worse, your president lied about it. Once again, no amount id distractions, or confusing the isse will change that.

Clinton and NATO never even went to the UN over Kosovo. They acted completely on their own.

There is an old Irish saying I beleive that goes "Those that push you into mud are not neccesarily your enemy, and those that help you out of of mud are not neccesarily your friends". What that always ment to me is that the world is more complex than most are aware, and what things look like on the surface are seldom the truth. This "Anti-US" drivel is just another smoke screen to hide the underlying problems. It is easier to say someone is just anti-US, to dismiss them, rather than having to take that hard look in the mirror.

You know, you keep spouting your rhetoric, yet you ignore pretty much everything I posted. Why do you give a free pass to Western Europeans who support genocide?

I think you all of you non-Americans should start focusing on your own nations, because they aren't doing half as well as America is. It must be nice to get to give your government a free pass on everything they do, or to be able to simply overlook it because you can look at America's mistakes.

How do you know what anyone else can give? Heck, we hardly even have a military in the typical sense of the world, we generally have more strike force and special opp's - BOTH went AFAIK.

As for why don't we discuss our(Canadian) problems, well, it might have to do with the topic of the thread no?

AS for Western European genecide? To which one are you refering, and once again what is this topic? See! You can't help yourself. Forced to try and deflect the question at hand.

Really childish IMO. Once again - On Sept 12 the world was with you. Now it isn't. It isn't because of any "Anti-US" feeling, it is because the US did something many felt were wrong(and history has shown they were right), then by passed the entire system, started a war, killed innocent people for what? Lies.

I would also add that many seem to confuse peole discussing this with American's online as American bashing. Nothing could be further from the truth in many instances. Many people, myself included, know America screwed up large, but still don't think that "America" is bad, or evil. It does have serious problems and those problems will be solved.

Either way they will be solved either by some other nation conquering the US and thus ending a dream for many, or the people within the US will smarten up and fix the problem internally. I think that is what most want to see happen, but as long as the public allows these facists to bully them, this will continue to happen until people, either inside your country or out, rebel. That will be a sad day and probably the begining of the end to this social experiiment.

How do you know what anyone else can give? Heck, we hardly even have a military in the typical sense of the world, we generally have more strike force and special opp's - BOTH went AFAIK.

There's no Western nation that can't spare more than a few hundred troops.

As for why don't we discuss our(Canadian) problems, well, it might have to do with the topic of the thread no?

Where is the topic to discuss Canada or Europe's problems? From what I see on this forum, every topic seems to be solely about America's problems, and that's in spite of the fact that this forum has a large representation from all over the world.

This topic isn't just about America. It's about the animosity between America and Europe. No reason Canada can't be thrown in. If you want to try and point our policy as an excuse for all bad blood, then I see no reason to point out your hypocracy.

AS for Western European genecide? To which one are you refering, and once again what is this topic? See! You can't help yourself. Forced to try and deflect the question at hand.

The Sudan and Rwanda were both sponsored by Western European nations, and I've pointed that out and explained it rather thoroughly already.

Really childish IMO. Once again - On Sept 12 the world was with you. Now it isn't. It isn't because of any "Anti-US" feeling, it is because the US did something many felt were wrong(and history has shown they were right), then by passed the entire system, started a war, killed innocent people for what? Lies.

And once again, the world talked nice, but when it came time to act, they didn't do much at all.

If that's about all the support we get from the world, then we don't need it.

And I'm not deflecting anything. I've addressed every issue you've brought up. Just because I decided to point some things out of my own doesn't mean I'm deflecting attention.

Either way they will be solved either by some other nation conquering the US and thus ending a dream for many, or the people within the US will smarten up and fix the problem internally. I think that is what most want to see happen, but as long as the public allows these facists to bully them, this will continue to happen until people, either inside your country or out, rebel. That will be a sad day and probably the begining of the end to this social experiiment.

And people in America shouldn't take offense to these kinds of statements? We're wrong because some whiny liberals in Canada and Europe don't like our policy all of a sudden?

You're basically calling Americans ignorant, or just flat out stupid. How isn't that insulting us? You compare our government to fascists, and that's not supposed to insult us? Any American, even a liberal, shouldn't stand for a bunch of foreigners who have far more problems then we do and do far more evil things in the world telling us what to do.

I suggest you Canadians and Europeans take a look at your own nations for a change (you spend most of your time talking about American politics, after all). Your economies are constantly getting worse (yet you still somehow complain about America's "recession," in which we still grew faster and had lower unemployment than you).

You know what I say to you? Canada and Europe have two choices. They can either abandon their social programs, or their economies. You'd better wise up and get rid of your socialist leaders.

Disturbed, if I was to call American's stupid I wouldn't waste my time with you. However, it has been clear that while you acknowledge there isn't a place about the topics you brought - that only means, to you, that we are picking on the poor American's. Crazy how the ego's run rampent when they aren't getting their way.

Once again - Sept 12th we were all with you. I am sorry if other nations don't share your urge for massive military and the trillons of debt already(Our social programs already give us enough debt thank you). So let me get this straight, just to run it down for you - You claim the world isn't helping, I show it is, and then you say it isn't good enough. Well, I am sorry - but clearly whether it is good enough or not - the fact remains we are there and others as well. In fact most coutnries from what I remember agreed at first until the illegal invasion of Iraq. Once again - nothing you have said or can say will ever change that and nothing else or any deflections will erase the lies your president told you that sent so many American kid's to their death needlessly.

As for any warnings, well, at one point in time I used to see our social safety net much like a giant chain around each Canadian's neck - still do to a degree. However, I will take our moderate capitalism/socialism that helps all over your facist regime anyday - not that this is even a comparision. Both countries, IMO, are great or have the potential to be great. Remember we don't have to fear them, nor you. It is America that is acting like the coward, and that truly pains me to say. Only a coward attacks those unable to defend themselfs, and then claim it is for freedom. Sad when people can simply use a word and have that trick people.

Please don't take it as me, or anyone, calling you or any American stupid or dumb. I think it is fairly well accepted that the Americans that don't have a grip on the situation are that way primarily because the news they get is filtered. Although there are many on both sides, however it takes more work sifting through the media garbage and hype, and most AMerican's(and Canadian s for that matter), sadly, can't be bothered so they just parrott the mantra from the corperate media.

Really it is quite simple. First you claim it the US iis right and others are Anti-US. I show that the sentiment you are refering to came when you invaded a country illegally and has nothing to do with anything American, just America's actions. You try to deflect it or rationalize by saying others have done it before, so bother them. Obviously this is so logically flawed that it should be self evident. The kosovo, the amount of people in Afganni, etc - all merely deflections to aviod the single inexcapable fact that the world was with the US until they invaded Iraq - why? Because it was wrong, it was illegal, there was no proof of WMD's, everyone felt/knew/suspected it. The changes in party line afterward eventually leading to Saddam is a bad man so he had to go only underlines how weak the rational for invading Iraq - a soverign nation - was and that Bush and Co got away with it, and continue to get away with it while stripping the average American of his/her consitutional rights, really does say something about the people that elected him.

If you don't agree I am sorry, but until you can explain why the world suddenly started to be Anti-US right as they invaded Iraq, but have nothing to do with Iraq, this is game, set and match. If you can then I am all ears. But I don't think you can.

This has been a slice, but I don't think I can add anything else. I'll check the boards to see if you have managed to come with a reason, but failing that. Thank you for a great discussion, I have truly had a blast.

BIG UP's Disturbed.

Disturbed, if I was to call American's stupid I wouldn't waste my time with you. However, it has been clear that while you acknowledge there isn't a place about the topics you brought - that only means, to you, that we are picking on the poor American's. Crazy how the ego's run rampent when they aren't getting their way.

So, what exactly does it mean? Why is just about every topic about America's faults?

Once again - Sept 12th we were all with you. I am sorry if other nations don't share your urge for massive military and the trillons of debt already(Our social programs already give us enough debt thank you).

First, the European nations do build up their militaries. France has rapidly increased their military spending over the past few years. Behind America and Russia, the next top two weapons exporters are France and Germany. They spend more of their GDP per capita on weapons then we do. They also have larger debt when compared to their GDP.

And these nations are perfectly capable of deploying a few thousand soldiers to Afghanistan. France has some 50,000 men in their army. Germany has some 250,000.

Well, I am sorry - but clearly whether it is good enough or not - the fact remains we are there and others as well.

You didn't give all you could, and yet you all have no problem complaining about how much charity America gives, or how we give it.

It seems that you also ignore how much help our military has been to Europe and Canada. We had 70,000 troops in germany throughout the Cold War. Europe never had to worry about protection. Americans were always their to die for them. Yet they have the nerve to complain about how much we spend on our military.

If America didn't deploy those troops overseas, we'd be able to save huge amounts of money. Meanwhile, the German economy would suffer, and they'd be forced to spend more on their own miliatry.

Yet how does Europe repay us? They give us the minimum amount of support they can in Afghanistan, and screw us over on Iraq so they can get some oil contracts.

In fact most coutnries from what I remember agreed at first until the illegal invasion of Iraq. Once again - nothing you have said or can say will ever change that and nothing else or any deflections will erase the lies your president told you that sent so many American kid's to their death needlessly.

Illegal war? Hardly. The UN found Iraq in violation of their own sanctions. That justifies any invasion in the legal sense. Morally, there is nothing to explain to you or any European who isn't in a nation that has given troops to Iraq.

As for any warnings, well, at one point in time I used to see our social safety net much like a giant chain around each Canadian's neck - still do to a degree. However, I will take our moderate capitalism/socialism that helps all over your facist regime anyday - not that this is even a comparision. Both countries, IMO, are great or have the potential to be great. Remember we don't have to fear them, nor you. It is America that is acting like the coward, and that truly pains me to say. Only a coward attacks those unable to defend themselfs, and then claim it is for freedom. Sad when people can simply use a word and have that trick people.

Really? It's cowardly to get rid of a dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of people, and tortured millions more? I suppose we were cowardly in WW2 for what we did with Japan and Germany. We should have turned them into puppets, or just left them as dictatorships.

Why was attacking Kosovo justified in your eyes? Saddam killed more people.

The reasons for attacking Iraq are meaningless as long as we achieve something good in the long run.

And you take your socialist government. Americans have the highest standards of living, along with a rapidly growing economy and low unemployment. Canada's economy continues to decline.

Please don't take it as me, or anyone, calling you or any American stupid or dumb. I think it is fairly well accepted that the Americans that don't have a grip on the situation are that way primarily because the news they get is filtered. Although there are many on both sides, however it takes more work sifting through the media garbage and hype, and most AMerican's(and Canadian s for that matter), sadly, can't be bothered so they just parrott the mantra from the corperate media.

Our media is biased? What do you call CBS? How about the BBC, who has reporters who cry as a monster like Arrafat dies?

I hear more rhetoric, but no facts.

You haven't shown a dman thing. Just because you make a statement, doesn't make it true. You can't back up anything you say with real facts. Tell me how Kosovo was UN approved again...That gave me a real good laugh.

I guess illegal wars are fine if Western Europe and Canada tag along, though, right?

You try to deflect it or rationalize by saying others have done it before, so bother them.

I wasn't reationalizing anything. I just wonder where you get off talking with such moral superiority while you completely ignore, or are ignorant of the crimes commited by your own, and other governments. Seems to me you hold America and the rest of the world to different standards.

Because it was wrong, it was illegal, there was no proof of WMD's, everyone felt/knew/suspected it. The changes in party line afterward eventually leading to Saddam is a bad man so he had to go only underlines how weak the rational for invading Iraq - a soverign nation - was and that Bush and Co got away with it, and continue to get away with it while stripping the average American of his/her consitutional rights, really does say something about the people that elected him.

WMD's were never the only reason for invading Iraq.We at ALL times gave multiple reasons, and cheif among them was that Saddam was a tyranical dictator who massacred hundreds of thousands of people.

And if America made up evidence, then explain to me why Russia, France, the UN, and just about everyone else had intelligence saying the same thing. Russia actually gave us intelligence just after 9/11 claiming people in the Iraqi government were interested in attacking America.

If you don't agree I am sorry, but until you can explain why the world suddenly started to be Anti-US right as they invaded Iraq, but have nothing to do with Iraq, this is game, set and match. If you can then I am all ears. But I don't think you can.

I already answered this. The nations who opposed the invasion all had oil contracts with Iraq that became useless with the inasion. Their officials received personal gifts from Saddam.

The fact that they gave minimal support in Afghanistan, and had motives to oppose the war with Iraq besides their morals is enough to discredit your nonsense.

Europe and Canada didn't give a damn when we were bombing the hell out of Kosovo and then failed to find the massgraves the world was promised. Why were you all silent then? What made that any better then Iraq? How about when Clinton bombed Iraq, and hit milk factories instead?

You can't explain what seperates these two wars. The only differences are America had a Republican instead of a Democrat, and Europe had money to be made off Saddam, but not Kosovo.