Originally posted by finnman68
GWB is our representative to the rest of the world and when you put him down its like putting America. And why is it every time some one brings up America they have to bring Israel into the fray.

Ummmmmmm... probably cos AIPAC seems to be an integral part of the US Government and has congress (both Rep and Dem members) paid off

See, when large "special interest" groups have so much influence and pay so much money to politicians for house votes and bills in their favour, you have to wonder who the politicians actually serve.

See, some of us can keep a sense of humour over issues like this and don't take ourselves too seriously. If you can't bear to hear criticism then go hang out somewhere else.

You want to joke about Bush? I don't care. Make fun of how he talks. It won't bother me. You can even question his policy and it wouldn't bother me (if done in a respectful and fair manner). Comparisons to Hitler or any other tyranical murderer is simply absurd.

I bow to no man and respect nobody until they act in a way worthy of respect. Bush and Blair, and the self serving criminals that surround them, have yet to prove, to me at least, that they are worthy of an ounce of respect.

It's easy to call a politician names while ignoring the fact that they themselves don't always get to call all the shots. They have pressure from within their party, as well as outside to do some things.

It's impossible to be a politician and not at some point make decisions that are unethical. That doesn't mean you aren't achieving a greater good in the process.

For everything bad you could name about Bush, I could name five things that he's done that are unqestionably good in anyones eyes.

And this isn't even about respect for Bush, but America. And if America hasn't done enough to earn your respect, then you're simply an ingreat.

As a taxpayer who pays their salary I'll reserve the right to criticise at every opportunity

You don't pay Bush's salary.

No, I pay Blairs salary... so I get to criticise him whenever I want. I also get to criticise Bush as I see him and his buddies as criminals. My personal viewpoint and I don't expect others to agree, but I have the right to say so.

As for being an ingrate, what am I supposed to feel grateful to the US for?
You lost me a bit on that one

Hi,

I just sat here and read all the above posts, and there are many that I wished I got here sooner to respond to directly, but I'm not going to go back and try to do so.

Basically though, what it sounds like is that everyone has their opinion (obviously, as they should), but no one can speak for "everyone else" or "the majority of" the other people in their respective countries.

It seems to me that, for example, I was born in America. I had absolutely no choice in the matter what so ever. And the same goes for all the rest of you who were born in (or raised in) the country that you are in. Right? And some of us vote, some don't, I'm sure. Now personally, IMHO regarding voting - at least in the U.S. I'm not sure whether it makes any difference or not, but, that is a topic that has been covered over and over again.

Also, I absolutely do not like it at all, and it happens every day just about, I don't just mean here, but in general, when I get lumped in with the government and the rest of the country. When a U.S. president and their administration chooses to do something, and it gets referred to as "we" did it, well, that just rubs me the wrong way because "I" am part of "we" by being a citizen, but I had absolutely no part in making the decision(s).

Sorry, I guess I feel strongly about that, and got rambling a little off track. But I was basically wanting to say two things, and that is that first of all, most of the posts I read in this thread, were coming from people who seem to feel that they automatically need to take the position of their government. Which is O.K. if if that is how everyone really feels, but.....I don't know..... And the main thing this thread make me think about, is the fact that while we have no control over where we were born, and the policies of our governments (although we ought to have more say in what our elected officials do) but that's neither here nor there. We are all citizens of our own, very special country, and we are all here only of our own choosing. We are all voluntary citizens of ATS. We need to remember that above all else, when attacking each other on behalf of what our governments, media outlets, etc... do.

It's great to talk about what they do, but remember, if I'm not mistaken, we're all on the same side here, aren't we?

Just a couple of thoughts.

GWB is our representative to the rest of the world and when you put him down its like putting America

That is not true. You are not your president. You are a society of individuals. It is the essence of democratic society. Presidents and politicians come and go, do not identify yourself with something so fleeting. Presidents are supposed to work for the people and not the other way.
What or who american is, is based on values of your people and country and not on one political figure.
A true patriot is the one who is the first to point out the flaws of leaders.

GWB is not your only representative in the world. Movies, music, clothes, technology, food, those are your representatives in the world too, and we love them. (specially 24, Lost, Stargate, Goo Goo Dolls, Pearl Jam, Burger King, Firefox, msn messenger... ).

So to say europeans are anti-american is very far from the truth.

There are indeed those in Europe who are very quick to stereotype americans and do actually say things that fit into deffinition of being "anti-american". Every time I hear that I remind them of everything american in their daily lives. That is usualy enough to shut them up.

Generaly though, there aren't many of those.

As for GWB, we do not hate him. If anything, he is a joke, specially his bushisms. Priceless.
We criticize certain aspects of foreign policy of your current administration. That is our democratic right though. FOREIGN policy affects the whole world, so the whole world does have the right to speak their mind about it.
We criticize our own goverments too. Look at what the french are currently doing to theirs.

IAF101, the irony of your posts is appalling. You generalize europeans into a stereotype that doesn't even exist anymore, practically bashing all europeans. You respond to a thread about anti-americanism with posts loaded with anti-europeanism. I got no further comment on your words.

Originally posted by Britguy

Originally posted by finnman68
GWB is our representative to the rest of the world and when you put him down its like putting America. And why is it every time some one brings up America they have to bring Israel into the fray.

Ummmmmmm... probably cos AIPAC seems to be an integral part of the US Government and has congress (both Rep and Dem members) paid off

See, when large "special interest" groups have so much influence and pay so much money to politicians for house votes and bills in their favour, you have to wonder who the politicians actually serve.

Britguy, thanks for your response to finnman68's post, in that I have always wondered what exactly is so special about Israel that every Administration, D or R seems to automatically defer to them. You just explained it. Thanks again.

BTW finnman68, I am an American by default. I don't feel the least put down when GWB is put down. He usually, if not always deserves it. I didn't do whatever he did at the time he's getting put down. Why should I feel guilty for his frequent "blunders". And I'm not anti-American, just anti-Bush's policies.

Comparisons to Hitler or any other tyranical murderer is simply absurd.

Why? he has murdered countless innocent people. Maybe not by his own hand, but by direct order.

Originally posted by finnman68
With the politics of war looming in the air I’ve noticed that it seems like there are more anti-American statements in the press, and on various web sites like these I find Europeans and Americans sniping at one and another. And watching a report on the news today I heard of a couple reporters being fired in the UK for having pro-American stories
I think Americans and Europeans alike should try to find some common ground on these issues if we are ever going to have a chance to defeat the terrorist that want to change all of our lives.

Would you like to point out which UK reporters were fired and why you might think the reason for dismissal was because they were considered 'pro-US'? Because I would be stunned if that were the truth of the situation.

Such a suggestion sounds like right-wing trolling in a transparent attempt to promote further discord.

Jak


[edit on 8/6/05 by JAK]

Originally posted by Britguy

See, when large "special interest" groups have so much influence and pay so much money to politicians for house votes and bills in their favour, you have to wonder who the politicians actually serve.

Britguy; this just shows your ignorance on US policy, your ignorance has led you to form the wrong notion of America in your head. The so called "special Interest" groups are nothing more than business groups; i.e groups of business people from a perticular country that join together to lobby for that countries benefit. You country Britan also has such groups so do most countries but these are just for lobbying and not manipulation through bribes or anything of that sort you must remember that the American public watches the government very closely more closely than in other nations and any such 'deals' will always come out and the politicians know they will have to pay hell. If your in office and have underhand dealings with people that compramise the USA then it is treason and you will be hanged its that simple!.

Oh, I see!!!
Everything our politicians do is above board and open to scrutiny by any one of us. GET REAL!!!

How can we possibly have a "democratically" elected leadership, by the people for the people, so to speak, when those politicians accept money and perks from "lobbyists" for preferential treatment. Soon as that happens, they are no longer representing the people and are therefore not worthy of holding public office.

Prior to the Iraq War, the US may not have been universally loved, but it was widely seen as a guarantor of stability and relative peace.

Post Iraq War, the US is seen as a purveyor of instability and an instigator of wars.

Sure there are plenty of other factors, but that is the fundametal issue.

It only took Bush three years to cripple the Atlantic Alliance that guaranteed security and held back the Soviets for more than fifty years. One wonders what he'll "accomplish" in the remainder of his term.

Originally posted by IAF101
Because if we wanted we could have had the whole of Europe to ourselves after the WW2 and we earned it too

It’s statements like that they give you such a bad reputation round the world. You are viewed as arrogant and stupid which in the majority of cases simply isn't true. Yes there are plenty of Americans who are dumb just like there are plenty of Brits who are too but having the dumbest one of the lot as your president just gives the image to everyone else that you're all like that.

Posts like that aren't going to help your case very much.

There's a little thing called diplomacy that your administration is sadly lacking in. Believe me Europe is just as criticised for alleged support of genocide as the US is criticised for alleged torture. All this crap about yearning for our colonial past is complete rubbish, We do not have any wish to go around the world sticking our nose into business that doesn't concern us like the US seems to think is their job. The US is purely motivated by keeping its number 1 position at all costs and don't believe for a second that you are not dispensable in the pursuit of that cause. The US is way past it s golden age and knows that it's empire is on the decline and is doing everything it can by flexing its military might to bring their former dictator buddies back into line. The US may still be the richest, most powerful, most corrupt and number one in the world crime league but it is not number one in terms of technology, education, healthcare and social welfare. We have it a hell of a lot better throughout Europe, Free healthcare systems, proper social welfare systems and education is of a far higher standard in Europe than the US. The Far East is way ahead of you in technology.



[edit on 8-6-2005 by arnold_vosloo]

Most Europeans Hate America because their ashamed of their own cowardance.....years and years of socialist policies in Europe have watered down most of the manhood and all thats left is a gutless buncha cry-babies.

I know there are still some real fighters left in Europe, but they get shouted down everytime they speak up.......kinda like here in ATS.

So the Liberals attack the brave ones who have the GUTS to go after Radical Islam....even as Radical Islam takes over their own countries, they lash out at the fighters who stand up and fight to make this world a better place.

Dear God, how far we have fallen.

Maximu§

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Most Europeans Hate America because their ashamed of their own cowardance.....years and years of socialist policies in Europe have watered down most of the manhood and all thats left is a gutless buncha cry-babies.

Ha ha ha...stop it, my sides may split

It's not hatred to disagree with your government's policies. I don't hold ALL Americans responsible for the spiralling mess the USA is getting into.
I have family and friends in America, many of whom share my own views about their own government.
As for being gutless, I and many others are certainly not gutless, we are vocal in our criticism of our own leaders and don't blindly follow the flag and bow to our leaders "wisdom".

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
years and years of socialist policies in Europe have watered down most of the manhood

That is one of the funniest things I've read today.

So the Liberals attack the brave ones who have the GUTS to go after Radical Islam...

In case you missed the last 4 years of news, Europe is fighting the war on terror every single day, the actual war on terror, Al-Qaeda I mean.
We never stopped doing that.
Nobody is protesting this, liberals are not trying to stop it, not even muslim immigrants have something against it.

Europe has been fighting terror long before 9/11, think of terror groups in Italy, Germany, Greece during the cold war, IRA in UK, ETA in Spain.

i guess most of the young people forgot about WWII...
then again this is not WWII anymore, America has change...

la_max - Your patriotic views are a frightening reminder of what America has become. I live in the UK, and I hope to God i don't become mentally crippled, as many from the US seem to have become.

EDIT: Changed "fightening" spelling error to frightening. Freudian slip...

[edit on 8-6-2005 by paranoia]

Originally posted by LA_Maximus
Most Europeans Hate America because their ashamed of their own cowardance.

- Most amusing Max.

I know there are still some real fighters left in Europe, but they get shouted down everytime they speak up.......kinda like here in ATS.

- In case you hadn't noticed Max you can't be "shouted down" on a message board.

That's the whole point of them, people get to freely express themselves exactly as they want and (unless you break board rules) no-one can do a thing about it.

Just cos you have a tendancy to encounter opposing views is no excuse for pretending you ever have gotten "shouted down" here.

So the Liberals attack the brave ones who have the GUTS to go after Radical Islam....even as Radical Islam takes over their own countries, they lash out at the fighters who stand up and fight to make this world a better place.

- ........or alternately you don't like seeing people say "hang on a minute, you own actions are driving this problem just as much as you think 'they' are".

What you call "liberals attacking the brave" in many many cases I'd call the sensible attacking the short-sighted and counter-productive 'ideas'.

As has been said the European fight against terrorism has been on-going and has not stopped, we just try not to do stupid quagmires.
Been there, done it, have no desire to repeat the experience thank you.

Dear God, how far we have fallen.

- Never one to pass up a chance to over-do the dramatics, eh Max?

(BTW nice to see you back, I thought you said you'd flounced off for good a while back?)

To Paperclip

- Quite right matey, in the version of democracy I heard of the elected are supposed to properly represent those who not only elected them but also those who didn't (ie those who didn't vote + those who voted for the other guy(s) ).
Not hold them up as some sort of traitorous aliens.


[edit on 8-6-2005 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

But did the world hate Bush in 2000?
Did the world hate Bush on Sept 12th?

Yes to both. They also hated America for decades. Iraq isn't the source of any hate for America.

Oddly, I'd never, ever noticed such anti-American thought in Europe. I was born and raised in England, and travelled extensively through Europe, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, and yet I've never seen such a dislike, or such disgust, towards the US until after 9/11. Anti-American groups have always been present, but so have Anti-Brit, Anti-French, Anti-(insert nation here) groups.

Sure, the media portrays things differently in Europe - but generally speaking, you have a much better chance of viewing an objective, two-sided report in Europe than in the US. However, that's just my experience talking (after living in the US for eight years, too), and of course it doesn't speak for everyone.

It'd be very, very odd though if I were alone in this....