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NEWS: Body Parts Fall From Plane Landing at JFK Airport in NY

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posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 09:27 AM
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hi Gemwolf -- welcome to the forum and hope to see you posting a lot.

Now to answer your post from my point of view only -- as the person who started the thread
I only pointed out that it was a South African Airline that originated in South Africa and I also mentioned it did stop in Senegal.

And I never thought of South Africa as a third world country -- in fact my best friend when I was 16 was a girl who was living in my area while her Dad was here for a year for business and she was from South Africa and they returned home when the year was up. I've always wanted to go there because of stories and pictures we shared.

And I don't think when we were referring to the smallpox idea that anyone was thinking it was South Africa that would do that -- at least I wasn't thinking any specific country -- in fact wasn't thinking about this being what happened --only that it would be a way to do something like that if any terrorist wanted to.

But no matter -- I am glad we got you to register even if it was because you were ticked off and like I said hope to see you posting often.




posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by goose
Well in some of these countries it is not common knowledge the things that can happen to you as a result of hiding in planes, think about it some of these people would be amazed at plumbing, and no I am not trying to be condescending or prejudice against some of these third world countries, so how can they be expected to know these things. Take yourself for instance being dumped into these places would you know how to survive, what hurts you and does not hurt you or kill you? I doubt it. It is easy for us all to say don't they know but the truth is they don't.


Gemwolf, glad I made you join the forum, my apoligies for upsetting you. I was not just speaking about this incident but there have been many instances of this happening with people from many places. You hear about it a lot. If you read the above post it says in some of these countries, and yes I am quite aware that South Africa is not a third world country and so I assumed anyone reading it would know that I was not speaking of your country, I guess I should have clarified this more fully.

[edit on 8-6-2005 by goose]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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Take A Number


Originally posted by Gemwolf
I'm from South Africa. I don't care what the BBC or CNN or who-ever tells you this, but South Africa is NOT a third world country. It is the most advanced country in Africa in many fields - and right next to some European countries.

International perception of South Africa is heavily influenced by being bombarded with news footage and stories of the riots in the townships and anti-apartheid propaganda for about two decades, which tends to give people the impression that all of South Africa consists of townships. As you know, this is not true.

Still, South Africa does have a lot of poor people. 40% unemployment is a very high rate of employment by any standard, and the average life expectancy of approximately 45 years is considered very low by “developed nations” standards. While life for most people in South Africa's modern cities is quite pleasant, many South Africans nonetheless live in poverty.

As for what constitutes a “third world nation”, I consider that label somewhat specious. For some background on that, I think this article addresses the matter reasonably well.

As the article points out, the label originally referred to countries aligned with neither the East nor the West during the Cold War. Other connotations followed, but the term was not originally considered pejorative.

Point Of Embarkation


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Anyone thought that maybe the guy got up at Senegal?

That's my theory. If the stowaway had climbed into the wheel well in South Africa, his or her body parts would most likely have been deposited in Dakar, not New York.

Conditional Wisdom


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Yes, this guy was an idiot to do what he did. But there's also American and British idiots who do stupid things on a daily basis. But that doesn't give me the right to call either the UK or the USA a third world country or uneducated for that matter.

I don't think this person was an idiot, just unaware of how unlikely survival would be in the plane's wheel well.

I don't consider myself an idiot, but I do many idiotic things. If I didn't know better, and I was desperate, I might well have tried the same thing in this person's situation.

One Nation, One Voice


Originally posted by Gemwolf
And not a single South African has any issues with the USA - at least not in such a way that he would kill himself in order to spread smallpox... WTF!?

With a cultural, ethnic and racially diverse population of roughly 44 million people, I find it statistically improbable that not a single South African has any issues with the USA. It just doesn't work that way.

That said, I find the idea that this tragic case is related to some sort of terrorist attack extremely remote, and unsupported by anything I have seen so far.

Your mileage may vary.

Aangename kennis.



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 04:18 PM
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Took me a second to wrap my brain around the whole "spinning in opposite directions" thing...until I realized you were talking about the main gear in the belly and not the nose gear. I've never been under one that close..eeew. Great idea for a horror movie.

I worked as a contractor at Boeing up in Everett, WA and got to watch 747 and 777s built from the parts shipped in. Watching the landing gear tests was something else. Like watching a moth unfold from a cocoon, and then in reverse.

Fortunately, there is no way to access any openings into the aircraft without setting a warning light in the cockpit. Nor can any be opened if there's a pressure difference. A few pounds per square inch on a few hundred square inch panel-that's a lot of force that needs to be applied to open it-and the drop of pressure if a stowaway did succeed would cause some interesting alarms.




Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by shots
How people can be so stupid as to even try using the wheel wells of aircraft is beyond me. If the cold does not kill you the lack of pressurization will.


No the issue is not the cold, lack of oxygen, or even the folding landing gear mentioned, so much as the several hundred pounds of tire, rims, and breaks coming up turning at take off speed of around 180 mph, they are going to chop up pretty much anything that is between them and the breaking pad on the gear well wall. Worst I have ever hear of was on a 737, where the tires pretty much meet in the middle with no wall between them, and the tires spinning in opposite directions. I have heard of a guy trying to get in the empty spot there and being ripped to shreds by the wheels and the remains splattered over the rear gear well wall.


Originally posted by justme1640
Is there anyone knowledgeable than I about aircraft who can tell us if there are areas of airplanes that can be accessed from the ground and where people could survive a trip across the ocean?


Yes, the passenger compartment, buy a ticket…..lol,

In truth pretty much anywhere else is not pressurized or heated, so you’re dead, either from getting crushed in equipment, freezing, or lack of O2.

That is about all the information you are ever going to get out of any responsible airline person. You’ll never get someone to divulge that kind of information on an internet forum, or even in person if you do not know them well. Heck I have to be careful about the things I know and post about aircraft and aviation on this forum, and there are times when I would love nothing more then to let someone have it because they don’t have a clue what they are talking about. The Pentagon threads being one of those places. The world is not the same place it was pre-9/11 and aviation secrets are even more closely kept then ever.


Spell checker error...lol

[edit on 6/8/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 8 2005 @ 04:25 PM
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heh, you forgot about the moron who tried to "mail" himself home in a crate-got sent cargo class, without the benefits of pressure and sufficient air. Rocket scientists everywhere. No nation on earth has the exclusive on stupidity.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Well reading the above posts made me register to the forum. I've never seen this much ignorance in one place.
I'm from South Africa. I don't care what the BBC or CNN or who-ever tells you this, but South Africa is NOT a third world country. It is the most advanced country in Africa in many fields - and right next to some European countries. I cannot believe that people that's a member to a board of this kind lend out their ears to the media. Don't believe everything you see on the tv.
I can assure you that the Security at Johannesburg International is up to standard - if not better than most airports in the world. I don't think Americans can question the security of an airport if back home it is (was?) disgustingly easy to hijack a plane? I did not wish to offend anyone with that statement - just trying to make a point!
Anyone thought that maybe the guy got up at Senegal?
Yes, this guy was an idiot to do what he did. But there's also American and British idiots who do stupid things on a daily basis. But that doesn't give me the right to call either the UK or the USA a third world country or uneducated for that matter. And not a single South African has any issues with the USA - at least not in such a way that he would kill himself in order to spread smallpox... WTF!?
Get your facts straight, please people. At least before you go making blind/bold statements about another guy's country...

Well, that must've been the most patriotic thing I did all day!


PS - I'm glad I stumbled on your forum. It looks really interesting!



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 06:36 AM
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Wow. When I made my first "outraged" post I prepared myself to be flamed. Surprise, surprise.


I'm a member of many forums and am used to jerks. But this forum is completely different!!! The members are intelligent and respect each other and each other's opinions. Thank you everyone. I'm really impressed. I took some time to browse through some topics, and this is definitely a high quality forum. I'll definitely make a point of being an active member!

Yes. South Africa has it's problems. Political, HIV/AIDS, crime, etc. - and this is most probably all you get to see on the international media. But there's more to this country, and always a story behind the story. But as we've established this doesn't make it a third world country.

Thank you once again for your positive responses. You'll be sure to see some more of me around here!


And Majic - Pleased to meet you as well!



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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After The Fire


Originally posted by Gemwolf
I'm a member of many forums and am used to jerks. But this forum is completely different!!! The members are intelligent and respect each other and each other's opinions.

Well, it's not all peaches and herb. ATS has no shortage of trollery and flamage -- and I'm by no means innocent of it myself.

Nope, not at all. Sometimes I experience flashbacks to my alt.flame days (where flames are always on topic), and it ain't pretty.

But that said, we're working on it, and I'm pretty optimistic. The ATS culture is geared away from flaming -- whereas on far too many boards it seems to be at least tacitly encouraged.

As for indignation, sacred cows are routinely slaughtered and served for dinner on ATS, which can lead to the requisite drama and gnashing of teeth. But that's par for the course.

Want a real challenge? Try being an American around here.*


Gemwolf, welcome to ATS. Here's hoping the flames won't deter you from gathering the occasional nuggets of truth which are uncovered in our hallowed halls now and then.




* I sound like I'm complaining, and I guess I am, but in fact I believe most Americans need the bitter medicine uncensored global exposure provides. That's my opinion, anyway.



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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Naw, try being an american AND a person of faith. Any faith, but especially of a christian faith. Or should I say it.... a Bush supporter Whew! Then you are in the dog house


[edit on 9-6-2005 by kenshiro2012]



posted on Jun, 9 2005 @ 12:12 PM
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Testify!


Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Naw, try being an american AND a person of faith. Any faith, but especially of a christian faith. Or should I say it.... a Bush supporter Whew! Then you are in the dog house

Amen, brother.

Keep the faith, and illegitimi non carborundum.



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by Phugedaboudet
Took me a second to wrap my brain around the whole "spinning in opposite directions" thing...until I realized you were talking about the main gear in the belly and not the nose gear. I've never been under one that close..eeew. Great idea for a horror movie.


Yeah I meant the main gear wheel well. Theoretically the tires are both spinning the same direction while on the ground, but you would have one on either side of you when they fold into the body of the plane, so they will suck anything between them in and splatter it on the wall to the back. Like those rubber motors on the old hot-wheels tracks that would suck in a car and shoot them out the other side.


Originally posted by Phugedaboudet
Fortunately, there is no way to access any openings into the aircraft without setting a warning light in the cockpit. Nor can any be opened if there's a pressure difference. A few pounds per square inch on a few hundred square inch panel-that's a lot of force that needs to be applied to open it-and the drop of pressure if a stowaway did succeed would cause some interesting alarms.


Yes while the plane is pressurized, but not while it is being loaded on the ramp, but while its being loaded its supposed to be under the watchful eye of a ramp crew, a lead agent, and a supervisor.

As long as its already been mentioned about the cargo areas, I will comment this much on them. There is usually only one bin per aircraft that is rated to allow animals to be placed in it, so you have a one in two/three chance of picking the right one if someone were to try and pull that stunt. There were always rumors of guys falling asleep in the bins and getting flown out somewhere or other by accident, but I believe that 99% of those stories were just airline urban legends. Even an only halfway responsible lead agent is going to check his bins, nets, and locks prior to sealing the door.



posted on Jun, 13 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Yes while the plane is pressurized, but not while it is being loaded on the ramp, but while its being loaded its supposed to be under the watchful eye of a ramp crew, a lead agent, and a supervisor.

There were always rumors of guys falling asleep in the bins and getting flown out somewhere or other by accident, but I believe that 99% of those stories were just airline urban legends. Even an only halfway responsible lead agent is going to check his bins, nets, and locks prior to sealing the door.


Sorry to pick 2 different lines from your post but wanted to keep the quote length down while keeping the two things I was addressing showing.

The link I posted earlier was actually from the abc news in New York (channel 7) so I know that particular case was not an airline urban legend but I am sure that there are lots of other stories going around that are. So I guess my link was the 1%


It does make me wonder about the person who was to check before locking and sealing the doors - I would hope there is some investigation into how often this may actually happen. I am also aware of how much pressure there is to get the plane away from the gate so they can be listed as leaving on time - which I am sure could contribute to this happening. Not the sleeping part but the not checking as well as they are supposed to part that is.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by justme1640
The link I posted earlier was actually from the abc news in New York (channel 7) so I know that particular case was not an airline urban legend but I am sure that there are lots of other stories going around that are. So I guess my link was the 1%


Yes, I did notice that, but what I mean is that every airport has this rumor floating around that so-and-so fell asleep in the bag bin and got sent to this place or that. It might happen but not with the frequency that the rumor exists at each airport, hence that it is somewhat of an airline urban legend.

It used to be common for the baggage handlers to lie against the curved walls of the bag compartment on narrow body aircraft to rest while waiting for the next cart of baggage to make it up to the aircraft. Finding them asleep in there use to occasionally happen. However; there got to be a major issue in baggage theft, so most airlines made it against the rules for the guys to be in the bag well bin while not actively loading it.


Originally posted by justme1640
It does make me wonder about the person who was to check before locking and sealing the doors - I would hope there is some investigation into how often this may actually happen. I am also aware of how much pressure there is to get the plane away from the gate so they can be listed as leaving on time - which I am sure could contribute to this happening. Not the sleeping part but the not checking as well as they are supposed to part that is.


Obviously, getting late planes out on time is an issue, but so is safety. So what they did was make it that when a plane came in late you had 30 minutes if it was a narrow body, and 60 if it was a wide body. Any less time then that and you risk personnel making stupid mistakes, besides that you need so much time to fuel a plane no matter what, you cannot pump the gas faster then the truck can pump it. The problems arise more so when you have more planes on the ground then you can handle with the personnel you have on the ramp, at least back in the days when I worked out there anyway.



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 12:40 AM
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Guys guys guys. HE SUCCEDED! He made it to new york!!!



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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"hey............ i didn't get my hot roasted nuts"



posted on Jun, 15 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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Oh, I'm sure his nuts got roasted in the plane



posted on Jun, 19 2005 @ 01:41 AM
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Actually Defcon5, there is a metal bracket in every wheel well that the wheels hit against once they're retracted that stops them from spinning. If they were to keep spinning in flight, and the brakes were rubbing or any kind of friction it could cause a fire in the wheel well. There are a lot of rather sensetive items in a wheel well that don't react well to fire. There was a crash in Europe in the 60s that was caused when plane was using the engines to clear fog, and used heavy breaking, then when they took off a wheel caught fire and burned out the wheel well.

As far as access points, there are several that you could access and survive. There have been stowaways that were in the wheel well that survived too. I won't go into details about where they are however. Security in other countries varies. Many countries have wonderful passenger screening, but not so great perimeter security or vice versa.



posted on Jun, 19 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by justme1640
This morning (6/7/05) at around 7am Pam Hearne of Floral Park NY heard a loud noise and upon investigation found that human body parts had crashed into the roof of her garage. A flight that originated in South Africa with one stop in Dakar, Senegal landed at JFK and customs found the remains of an individual in the wheel well of the South African Airways Flight 203.
 



abclocal.go.com
investigators say before that plane touched down at JFK body parts fell from the wheel well and crashed into a roof and landed in a backyard.

Pam Hearne, Homeowner: "It sounded like metal on metal, it sounded like wood on wood. It was a very, very solid object."

At about 7:00 a.m. Pam Hearne was startled by a loud bang. Something fell from the sky and left a gaping hole in her garage roof.

Pam Hearne: "I noticed something that looked like a human or animal part. My first reaction was maybe it was a horses leg but there is a sneaker on it, so there is a sneaker on the leg. It is a whole leg. The first officers on scene said 'oh my god, this is a human leg and this is a crime scene.' Then soon after one of the officers received the information that a body part had been found in a plane this morning."




Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


What would make a man so desperate that he would attempt to hide in a wheel well of an aircraft? Was he only trying to get out of the country or did he actually know the flight was going to the United States and he thought he could make it here? I am blessed that I cannot imagine the kind of desperation that makes you attempt something like this.

But on reflection, I also have to question the security of international airports that are so lax that a person can get onto the runway and manage to hide in the wheel well of an aircraft. While I know that no one can survive a journey like this would it be possible for someone to actually hide in another part of an aircraft and actually make it into another country. What would the chances be that a terrorist could actually get onboard a plane through some method using this lax security?

[edit on 7-6-2005 by justme1640]

[edit on 7-6-2005 by justme1640]

[edit on 7-6-2005 by justme1640]


I heard this too. What kind of airports do they have in Africa? Aren't there any guards. How do squeeze into a wheel well?



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58

Actually Defcon5, there is a metal bracket in every wheel well that the wheels hit against once they're retracted that stops them from spinning. If they were to keep spinning in flight, and the brakes were rubbing or any kind of friction it could cause a fire in the wheel well. There are a lot of rather sensetive items in a wheel well that don't react well to fire.


Yes I realize this and so it is mentioned in my initial post, but I will point it out here so you dont have to go back and look, since you missed it earlier. The point is that even with that braking pad, the gear do not immediately stop, they are going to make a few rotations until the friction of the pad stops them. How many rotations that it takes I have no idea, but I know that I would not want to be sitting in between them on a 737. Sounds like you have worked around a few planes yourself though which is cool. So what did/do you do?


Originally posted by Defcon5
No the issue is not the cold, lack of oxygen, or even the folding landing gear mentioned, so much as the several hundred pounds of tire, rims, and breaks coming up turning at take off speed of around 180 mph, they are going to chop up pretty much anything that is between them and the breaking pad on the gear well wall.



Originally posted by Zaphod58
There are a lot of rather sensetive items in a wheel well that don't react well to fire.


I think this depends on the plane, not much in a 727 or DC-9 gear well for example except maybe a few hydraulic hoses. A 737 is a different ball of wax though since there is no wall to separate the two wells and it runs straight through the aircraft.


[edit on 6/20/2005 by defcon5]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 10:22 PM
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Right now I'm a tech working on trace detection equipment and x-rays, but from the time I was 5 until about 28 or 29 I was going to work with my father on a military flightline, and helping work on planes. I spent many hours on the ramp with crew chiefs turning wrenches, reading books for them, and doing all kinds of things along those lines.

Yeah I did miss that, I was pretty tired when I read your original post. I think every design has hydraulic lines running through the wheel wells. That is some nasty fluid. The one and only fire warning light emergency I've ever seen where there was an actual fire was a hydraulic pump that blew out and the fluid caught fire in the engine on a KC-135. Tore the cowling up pretty good.


[edit on 20-6-2005 by Zaphod58]

[edit on 20-6-2005 by Zaphod58]



posted on Jun, 20 2005 @ 10:52 PM
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Originally posted by djohnsto77
Desperate people try to do this all the time, and I agree it is sad.

They must be completely ignorant to the fact that it would be impossible for a man to survive in the unpressurized open environment of a plane's wheel bay for almost any flight, let alone a flight from South Africa to New York!



But don't forget, there is severe racial intolerance and discrimination in South Africa. Some people will escape by any means possible, even risking death.



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