It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

comparison between chinese and indian arms purchases.

page: 1
0

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 04:31 AM
link   
i find this very interesting that china doesn't want to purchase the newer russian equipment but sticks to more proven designs

mdb.cast.ru...




posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 05:56 PM
link   
China should buy what they think is good for their country, or themselves.



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 11:27 PM
link   
Chinawhite your source is dated 2002 and is outdated.

Here is some clear cut explainatory and latest info



The induction of the Su-30 into the IAF is a bit confusing for some. This is due to the fact that three different deals where signed, delays in the program and also due the fact that IAF has been operating Su-30s (since 1997) which are not Su-30MKIs but Su-30MKs. However, since they are being operated by the IAF, they are referred to as Su-30MKIs by some. Here Su-30MKI refers to the final version of the aircraft, and not those which saw service with the IAF since 1997.

On July 24, 1994 an Indian delegation headed by the CAS of the IAF arrived in Russia to evaluate the aircraft.

Deal I (30 Nov 1996) : The IAF signed a US $1462 million (equivalent to Rs 5122 crore) deal with Sukhoi on 30 November 1996 for the delivery of 40 Su-30 aircraft and the associated equipment from the Irkutsk plant in phased manner, spread out over four years - from 1997 to 2000. The contract provided for setting up of a Service Support Centre in India which was to undertake extended second line repair tasks of aircraft, avionics, aero-engines and aggregates to avoid the need to despatch them to the manufacturer.

Under this original contract, Su-30s would be delivered to the IAF in four batches:

The first batch (Su-30MK-I) of 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1997. These were 'standard' Su-30s (a development of the Su-27UB) and contained 100% (probably) Russian components and are primarily sir-superiority aircraft only. These fighters were first delivered to India at Lohegaon AFS in March 1997. They were inducted into the IAF on 11 June 1997 by the then Prime Minister, Inder Kumar Gujral. These planes are currently in service with IAF with serial nos SB001 to SB008 in the No. 24 Hawks squadron based at Lohegaon AFS.

The second batch (Su-30MK-IIs) of another 8 aircraft would be delivered in 1998 and would be fitted with Sextant Avionique's avionics from France, liquid crystal multi-function displays (MFDs), a new flight data recorder, a dual ring laser gyro INS (inertial navigation system) with embedded GPS (Global Positioning Satellite), EW (Electronic Warfare) equipment procured from Israel's IAI (Israeli Aircraft Industries), a new electro-optical targeting system and a RWR (Radar Warning Receiver).

The third batch (Su-30MK-IIIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 1999 and would feature canard foreplanes

The fourth and final batch (Su-30MKIs) of 12 aircraft would be delivered in 2000 and would add the AL-31FP turbofans.

The first 32 aircraft already delivered would then be upgraded to the Su-30MKI variant, in a phased manner. This plan was thought of because Su-30MKI would be the world's first of its kind, and not all technologies were completely developed in other Russian designs like the Su-35 and Su-37.

Deal II (September 1998) : The IAF decided to buy 10 additional Su-30Ks for US $277.01 million (equivalent to Rs.1187 crore) and thus bring the total number of IAF Su-30s on order to 50. These 10 were originally destined for Indonesia, but due to the financial crisis there Indonesia was unable to take delivery. The first 4 units were delivered in June 1999. These have updated electronic warfare suites, PGM (Precision Guided Munitions) capability and possibly updated radar. These planes are currently in service with IAF with serial nos SB009 to SB018 in the No. 24 Hawks squadron based at Lohegaon AFS.

IAF was to take delivery the 2nd batch of aircraft(Su-30MK-IIs) in 1998. However this was postponed due to delay specifying the requirements for the advanced avionics (French,Israeli and Indian). In March 1998 the agreements were signed with the concerned firms. The crash of the first Su-30MKI prototype T-10PMK-1 ("blue 01") at the Paris airshow did not help matters.

Later it was decided to take delivery of full-standard Su-30MKIs directly and hence doing away with the upgradation and to avoid different grades of one aircraft in service at the same time. Also, the development of the Su-30MKI was nearing completion and first buying some airframes and then upgrading them is an avoidable hassle. Hence, all future deliveries would be Su-30MKIs. The first 4 Su-30MKI arrived in India, again at Lohegaon AFS in semi-knocked-down (SKD) form on June 22, 2002. After assembly,they were test flown initially by Russian test pilots on 25-July-2002. The first flight by an Indian pilot in India happened on 14-Aug-2002. The first 18 aircraft (8 Su-30MK-I and 10 Su- 30K) will be upgraded locally by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The upgrade is to be completed by 2004-2005.

Deal III (October-December 2000) : A Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed allowing the license production of 140 Su-30MKIs and in December 2000, the deal was sealed in Russia at the IAPO factory. The deal combines license production with full technology transfer and hence called a 'Deep License'. For instance, HAL Koraput will also produce 920 AL-31FP engines, while the mainframe and other accessories will be manufactured at HAL's Lucknow and Hyderabad Divisions. Final integration of the aircraft and its test flight would be carried out at HAL's Ozhar (Nasik) Division. The original plans called for the first Su-30MKIs from Nasik to be delivered to the IAF in 2004-05, with production increasing to a peak of 10 aircraft per year from 2007-08 onward at this rate the production would have stretched to 2017-18. At Air Force Commander's Conference held in Oct-2002, the Air Chief Marshal Krishnaswamy, asked the HAL to complete the project in 10 years. This was confirmed by N.R.Mohanty on 12-Nov-2002 while speaking to the press (The Hindu, 13-Nov-2002). Therefore, the new schedule would mean that a maximum of 14 planes per year will be churned out by HAL and hence finishing in 2013. The original costs of Rs. 20,000 Cr remained as it is, even though such an action is expected to raise costs. According to Mohanty, HAL planned to counter the inflation by "outsourcing in low and medium type jobs while the critical items will be HAL's own."

Deal IV (May 2005) : It was originally planned that the 24 Sqn aircraft will be upgraded to the Su-30MKI Phase-III standard once the delivery is complete. However, the latest Russian offer is to replace these aircraft with newly built airframes at little extra cost. The reasoning being that some of the aircraft have already aged quite a bit - the first ones entered service in 1997. More importantly, the upgraded airframes would not have the same capability as the new airframes. The offer has reportedly cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council, but the schedule for the execution is not known at the moment.

End Result : IAF will eventually acquire a total of 190 Su-30MKI. Out of these 50 will be made in Russia by Irkutsk Aircraft Production Association (IAPO) while the rest will be produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). Production might be increased if necessary. HAL chairman Nalini Ranjan Mohanty has said that the Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million.
The first Su-30MKI were delivered by IAPO on June 22, 2002 aboard an An-124. 2 more followed in the same month. The first batch of 10 Su-30MKIs were inducted into the Indian Air Force on 27-Sep-2002 at Lohegaon AFS where the No. 20 Lightnings was constituted. The Phase-III aircraft deliveries were completed by Dec 2004, when around the same time the first HAL assembled Su-30MKIs rolled out. By 2006 the Phase I and II aircraft will be up to the latest standard.

India's Defence Minister George Fernandes laid the foundation stone of a new HAL factory at Sunabeda (20 kms from Koraput, Orissa) on Dec 15, 2002. This brand new facility is licenced to produce 1200 AL-31FPs. It is said that the manufacture of the AL-31FP engine "involved 31 new technologies required to be adopted and mastered"


Link



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 11:43 PM
link   
and chinawhite this is related to your signature


chinawhite's signature

the j-7 is licenced built mig-21
The Soviets licenced the manufacture of the MiG-21F and its engine to China in 1961


Read this :



Another Russian example is the Chinese made illegal copies of the MiG-21 fighter jet. In 1961 the Soviet Union licensed the manufacture of the MiG-21F jet fighter and its engine to China. China began manufacturing the MiG-21, known as the Jianjiji-7 or J-7, in early 1964. By 1989 Chinese production was running at a rate of as much as 14 aircraft per month, primarily for export. Today, the J-7 aircraft is the most widely produced Chinese fighter.

Nearly 1,000 J-7 fighters have been manufactured and sold worldwide. Chinese customers include Sudan, Iraq and Pakistan.

However, China has not paid on the MiG-21 manufacturing license since the fall of the Soviet Union, claiming that the aircraft deal expired along with the former Soviet state.

China is obviously not living up to its commercial expectations. Illegal copies and stolen technology are only a few examples of the economic policies of Beijing.



From : China's Economic War - Stealing Jobs and Technology


[edit on 6-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 11:48 PM
link   


The Chengdu J-7II was an illegal development of the Soviet MiG-21F-13 powered by Tumansky R-11F-300 turbojet.

China has also illegally sold it to :
Albania
Bangladesh
Egypt
Iran
Iraq
Myanmar
Pakistan
Sri Lanka
Tanzania
Zimbabwe



www.aeronautics.ru...

[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:51 AM
link   
stealth spy dont try make this into a flame war.

i just wanted to show why china isn't buying the best russian equipment.

you just dont get it. not everything is about india



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 02:52 AM
link   

Another Russian example is the Chinese made illegal copies of the MiG-21 fighter jet. In 1961 the Soviet Union licensed the manufacture of the MiG-21F jet fighter and its engine to China. China began manufacturing the MiG-21, known as the Jianjiji-7 or J-7, in early 1964. By 1989 Chinese production was running at a rate of as much as 14 aircraft per month, primarily for export. Today, the J-7 aircraft is the most widely produced Chinese fighter. Nearly 1,000 J-7 fighters have been manufactured and sold worldwide. Chinese customers include Sudan, Iraq and Pakistan.


as you can see china licenced the mig-21 from russia.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 03:01 AM
link   
I dont intend to turn this into a flame war as well but i was just quoting a few links.

The J-7 was licenced but China did not pay for it by making lame excuses. and moreover they did'nt have the rights to sell it to pakistan and the remaining nations. That's the reason the source claims it as an illegal development.

Anyway it was way back and China is now moving towards indegenous designs for its XXJ fighter


[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 03:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I dont intend to turn this into a flame war as well but i was just quoting a few links.

The J-7 was lisenced but China did not pay for it by making lame excuses. and moreover they did'nt have the rights to sell it to pakistan and the remaining nations. That's the reason the source claims it as an illegal development.

Anyway it was way back and China is now moving towards indegenous designs for its XXJ fighter


china stopped paying the manufacturing license after the fall of the soviet union.

who is china going to pay the many to? it was designed in the soviet union not russia


However, China has not paid on the MiG-21 manufacturing license since the fall of the Soviet Union, claiming that the aircraft deal expired along with the former Soviet state.


i dont think its a big deal seeing how russia doesn't have a prblem with it. if they did they wouldn't be stealing us planes.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 04:16 AM
link   
There's no doubt that the Russians are annoyed about it, but they are left with no choice but to sell their other planes too because of thier poor economy.

And chinawhite, how is selling these planes to other nations like pakistan(which russia has condemned as a terrorist nation), and the other nations in the list justified ?
Care to explain that ?

And how come most chinese sources claim that the J-7 is an indegenous chinese airplane based
on the Mig-21 ??

And how come sinodefence, perhaps the best and most trusted source claims that the J-7 is a chinese copy of the Mig-21 ??

How do you explain this :



China acquired a licence to build the MiG-21F-13 (Fishbed C), though after the severing of ties between Russia and China, the Chinese had to reverse engineer the aircraft.
www.fas.org...


[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 05:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
There's no doubt that the Russians are annoyed about it, but they are left with no choice but to sell their other planes too because of thier poor economy.

And chinawhite, how is selling these planes to other nations like pakistan(which russia has condemned as a terrorist nation), and the other nations in the list justified ?
Care to explain that ?

And how come most chinese sources claim that the J-7 is an indegenous chinese airplane based
on the Mig-21 ??

And how come sinodefence, perhaps the best and most trusted source claims that the J-7 is a chinese copy of the Mig-21 ??

How do you explain this :



China acquired a licence to build the MiG-21F-13 (Fishbed C), though after the severing of ties between Russia and China, the Chinese had to reverse engineer the aircraft.
www.fas.org...


[edit on 7-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]


russias poor economy has been growing at a rate 6% for over 7years.

if russia really wanted to make a big deal about it then they wouldn't sell china planes. they sell china planes becuase they dont care about china exporting the mig-21

i have never heard russia condeming pakistan of being a terrioist state? care to inform me

give me a chinese source saying that the mig-21 is a indigenious design i have never heard anyone mentioning that it is?

i dont know about sinodefence.com being a trusted site but china and russia slipt in 1960 the year after russia sold china the licences.


In February, 1961 Soviet driving notice our country, proposed is willing to continue to transfer the Mig - 21 airplanes technologies, and hoped our country sends the delegation to negotiate to Soviet Union. The need constructed which according to then situation and the air force, our country has rapidly sent out take air force Commander Liu Yalou as regimental commander's delegation. On March 30, 1961, China and Soviet Union will sign the contract in Moscow, the contract provision, Soviet Union in did not attach any condition in the situation to give our country produced the Mig - 21 airplanes (including with Mig - 21 matches P 11 - 300 engines and the K - 13 missiles) the charter. But, all technical assistance all is paid. ? ? When the Mig - 21 just introduced, the domestic code number was "62 types".


i dont think FAS is correct because the next year after the spilt china and russia worked again to build the mig-21




top topics



 
0

log in

join