is fornication or "sex for the sake of sex" an evil thing or did the "church" make this up?...

Originally posted by humbled_one
SPAMANDHAM, eating and sleeping are not "selfish" acts, you would dies if you did not do either one, you will not die however if you do not have sex (you are comparing apples and oranges here).

Ok, so selfish acts are not sin if death results from failure to do them, but to the extent you satisfy the basic need not to die, anything further would then be a sin?

Eating food that pleases you should then be considered sinfull, because it is not necessary to enjoy the food to stave off death. Also, I'm not aware of anyone who's ever died from lack of sleep, so I would think any sleep at all should be considered a sin.

Ok, What is fornication? Is another name for the sex when is enjoyed by the persons performing?

Now does the bible references to Fornication will apply to two saints in love? If they're, are not married to each other? And decide to have consensual sex?

Branding a woman a whore, prostitute or harlot apply to a woman of God because she has sex before marriage?

In my opinion is not, but is that the opinion of the church by bible standards? Does, modern Christians has come to the conclusion that modern days are define differently? When it comes to sex.?

Actually in ancient times the penalty for pre marital sex was no death but the marriage of the couple, even back when I was a teenager in a mostly dominated Catholic island all the girls I knew that have sex were force to marry.

When is sex a condemnation? That is the question, it is when is for the sake of sex outside a loving commitment or when the act becomes sexual idolatry, or worship in which the basic teachings of the bible on morality are forgotten.

Now by the bible standards what God condemns the most is Idolatry, no other Gods but him are to be worshiped, so when the mind of the faithful wanders on the wonders of sex forgetting God then he is sinning against God and performing no the sexual act but fornication.

Fornication by bible standards is a sexual act of idolatry. Worshiping the act with a temple prostitute, whore, or harlot.

Genesis 38:15-22 “A Harlot” is a village prostitute. Serving the purpose of sexual worship to Baal the god of fertility.

Ezekiel 16:15- the act of a harlot is called Fornication.

In ancient times during the days or the Messiah, men would go to the Temple of Baal and have sex with the high priestess of Baal it was an act of worship to the fertility God.

The man having sex with the priestess of Baal was represented as the fertility of the land.

Paul in one of his address he commanded that men should not unite their bodies, that were the temples of the Holy Spirit, with a Harlot, from the temple of Baal, because it was idolatry and idolatry was Fornication.

So all the fornication, was actually link to idolatry and the worship of other gods. But for some reason it got twisted to resemble under the early church guidance to include any sexual act including the one between a man and a woman under marriage to be sinful and dirty.


So that is how sex is link to fornication and a sin.

This is just bringing up the historical views of bible times.

[edit on 8-6-2005 by marg6043]

SPAMANDHAM, come on man, you are still comparing apples to oranges. And we are not talking about a "lack of sleep". You stated "sleeping" and it's a know scientific fact that if someone never sleeps they will die. We are also not talking about just "food someone likes". You stated "eating" and if you do not eat, you will die.
Anyway, none of this has anything to do with my original question/post, you are comparing apples to oranges here. Let's stick to the original post/question, thanks...

MARG6043, i agree with the "idol" part of your post on sex and i feel i am very guilty of this, not anymore, but i was and should have known better. I really hope/pray i can be forgiven...


[edit on 8-6-2005 by humbled_one]

Originally posted by humbled_one
SPAMANDHAM, come on man, you are still comparing apples to oranges. And we are not talking about a "lack of sleep". You stated "sleeping" and it's a know scientific fact that if someone never sleeps they will die. We are also not talking about just "food someone likes". You stated "eating" and if you do not eat, you will die.

I'm trying to make a point, and it's frustrating you because deep down you know its right, which is that sin has nothing to do with selfishness per se, and everything to do with intentionally harming people (or putting them at risk unwittingly).

There's nothing wrong with selfish acts to the extent you are not harming others against their will in the process. Eating and sleeping, though purely selfish acts, are not wrong because no-one is harmed by them. It has nothing to do with whether they are required for life.

SPAMANDHAM, no i do not in any way feel you are right about what you say. i am not frustrated either, it's just that your take on things does not make sense. I say that "sex for just the sake of having sex" is a sin and it is a "selfish" act. Then you try to compare sleeping and eating to sex and you say that sleeping and eating or "selfish" acts. No they are in no way "selfish" acts as you NEED to sleep and eat or you will die if you never eat or never sleep. You will not die if you never have sex. So you are comparing aplles to oranges, your point makes no sense. Can anyone else here on this thread agree with that??? Sapmaandham, a lot of "selfish" acts do hurt people. It may not hurt them physically, but it can hurt them emotionally and/or spiritually. Also it's not like i made this up on my own, there are like a ton of books that talk about "selfishness" being sinful. Almost every religion, including the big 3, state this and like every new age book states this...I know what you mean by saying that i am just frustrated because i know you are right as a lot of people argue a point even though they know the other person is right, but trust me i in no way feel you are right about selfishness not being a sin or being wrong. I've been around to long and have gone through to much to feel it is not a sin...Again is there anyone else on this thread that agrees with what i am saying about selfishness?...

Originally posted by humbled_one
a lot of "selfish" acts do hurt people.

...and a lot of them don't. Serving yourself is no more sinfull than serving others. It's only when you serve yourself at the expense of others that there's an issue.

Originally posted by humbled_one
Also it's not like i made this up on my own, there are like a ton of books that talk about "selfishness" being sinful. Almost every religion, including the big 3, state this ...

It can be, but it depends on whether or not you harm others for your own benefit. Any recreational activity, or anything done at all that is not purely for survival (your exemption) or for the benefit of others is a selfish act.

Even if you do help others, but you do so because it makes you feel good, you've still committed a selfish act. When you feel sympathy for another and do something to help them, your own pain is relieved. Helping others is then a sin if your motivation is sympathy, because that makes it a selfish act.

Some acts undertaken for selfish reasons, not only don't harm others, but actually help others. No matter, they're sin too because they are selfish in nature.

I challenge you to present references from the big 2 that show that selfishness is sinfull, even when it harms no-one. I'm sure you can find passages regarding fornication, but it isn't the selfishness per se that makes that a sin in these books, it's because the books claim god said not to do it that makes it a sin.

SPAMANDHAM, all you have to do is google search selfishness as a sin. why "challange" me to prove where "selfiness" is a sin and have me so you were so that it shows you are wrong, when you could have looked it up on the net without asking me?
Anyway, below is simply a quote of one of the first websites i found when i Googled selfishness as a sin:

There are many other things which God considers to be sin also. One of the best definitions of sin is found in the concept of selfishness. Selfishness is really one of the primary roots of sin in our lives. Most people do not realize that selfishness is sin. Selfishness is operating my life on the principle that I will do whatever is best for me. When I am faced with two choices, I will choose the one which helps me or benefits me the most. Let's look at what the Bible says about selfishness and sin. Turn to Philippians 2:3-4. What does verse 3 say we are not to do? What should our attitude be toward others (vs. 3-4)? How often do you live that way?
Each person primarily lives to satisfy his or her own selfish desires. Our attitude is "I am going to do my thing. I am going to have my own way." But the Bible says that this is sin, because I have made myself king of my life instead of God. I have denied God His rightful place as Ruler and Lord of my life and exalted myself in the place of God. James speaks more about selfishness in James 3:14-16. When we are jealous and selfish, what does James say we are guilty of (vs. 14)? What three words does James use to describe jealousy and selfish ambition (vs. 15)? Wherever we find jealousy and selfishness, what else does James say will be present as well (vs. 16)?
In II Timothy 3:1-5 God gives us some characteristics of people in the last days before Jesus Christ returns to earth. How accurately do these verses describe people today? What three things does Paul tell us people in the last days will be lovers of (vs. 2 & 4)? According to the Bible, when we love ourselves, money, or pleasure more than God we are guilty of idolatry (transferring to another object the worship due only to God). Idolators are among those whom the Bible says will not enter the Kingdom of heaven (I Corinthians 6:9-10). In essense, what the selfish person does is to totally ignore the God who made him and enthrone himself as the "god" of his own life. Many people who love themselves, money, pleasure, or something else more than God may seem to be very religious. Verse 5 tells us that such people may hold to a form of godliness, but it is not the real thing. (See the tract True Godliness from International Outreach for a closer look at these verses).
People not only sin by breaking God's laws outwardly, by thinking evil thoughts inwardly, by honoring themselves above God, but also in what they say as well. James 3:2-10 talks about this. What does verse 5 tell us about the tongue? How does James describe our tongues (vs. 6 & 8)? What example does he give of how we misuse our tongues (vs. 9-10)? Is God pleased when we do this?
Often when we see things which we have done which are wrong, we tend to compare ourselves with other people we know who are worse than we are to settle our consciences. This may help us to feel better, but it does nothing to change our guilty condition before God. Some people imagine that God grades on the curve or weighs our good deeds against our bad deeds and therefore, will not punish us, even though we have grievously sinned. Both of these concepts are wrong, according to the Bible. Turn to Isaiah 64:6. What does the first part of this verse say we are like? What is God's view of the things we do which we consider to be good?


[edit on 10-6-2005 by humbled_one]

The passages you quoted are referring to self indulgence (considering self higher than others), not merely selfishness per se.

Everything you do has an underlying selfish motive.

SPAMANDHAM, i give up, really. You asked me to show where selfishness is a sin and i did. That is the kind of selfishness i am talking about. i don't know how you are trying to define selfishness, but how i define it is in the quote i posted so what else can i say. i am not talking about catering to yourself in order to simply live and i really don't know how you can think that is what i meant/mean.
This was not even the topic of the orignal post so...anyway i think sex for just the sake of hooking up and having sex is a sin as it benifets no one spiritually, all it is about is the flesh...

Originally posted by spamandham
The passages you quoted are referring to self indulgence (considering self higher than others), not merely selfishness per se.

Everything you do has an underlying selfish motive.

If your eye is on your pleasure, your eye is not on God. If you serve your own pleasures, you are not serving God. (see Mat 6:22,24)

Originally posted by humbled_one
SPAMANDHAM, i give up, really. You asked me to show where selfishness is a sin and i did. That is the kind of selfishness i am talking about. i don't know how you are trying to define selfishness, but how i define it is in the quote i posted so what else can i say. i am not talking about catering to yourself in order to simply live and i really don't know how you can think that is what i meant/mean.
This was not even the topic of the orignal post so...anyway i think sex for just the sake of hooking up and having sex is a sin as it benifets no one spiritually, all it is about is the flesh...

I made it clear early on what I meant by selfishness, as did you, but you have continually failed to distinguish between different types of selfishness even though I gave you several examples of selfish acts that no-one would consider sinfull.

Rather than accept that selfishness per se is not sinfull, you preferred to complicate the issue by distinguishing between life necessary acts vs non-life necessary. You totally ignored the point that people eat for pleasure as well as for sustaining life.

But anyway, I do not view pleasure or acts devoted to self as inherently wrong. You would go nuts trying to make sure you were living an adequately spartan life if you really believed that. I only view selfishness as wrong when it is at the expense of unconsenting third parties. I see nothing inherently evil with hooking up, or other forms of sex, as long as all parties are honest about the risks, and precautions are taken to prevent pregnancy. I suspect the only reason you view it as evil is that your religion tells you it is.

Spamandham, i think most people know what i meant when i was talking about "selfishness"...

Originally posted by humbled_one
Spamandham, i think most people know what i meant when i was talking about "selfishness"...

Maybe, maybe not. But you never did clarify why sex-for-fun is wrong. I agree that the Bible says so, but that isn't enough for people who don't believe the Bible has more authority than any other book. The Bibleonly explains it as wrong because supposedly god doesn't like it.

What about sex-for-fun in a marriage? I bet that though that is also a selfish act, you don't think it's wrong.

Spamand ham, i said in my post's i am not talking about 2 people in love, i am talking about sex for just the sake of sex. I also say that i feel it is "wrong" or a "sin" in that sex for just the sake of sex is a thing of the flesh and totally neglects the spirit. Also the mind set of someone who is just out for sex with no love or emotions attached is someone who is being "selfish" in that they relly do not care all that much about the other person. They just want to use that other person to get off, they do get off and the cycle just keeps repeating as they are never satisified. Spiritually speaking, the person is adding nothing to theirt spiritual side and is just falling further and further away from their spiritual side. The person that just keeps living for just having sex for their own pleasure in a sense is then making sex his or her form of idol worship and it then takes up more of his or her thought process then their thoughts on God and their spirituality. As far as married couples, if a husband or wife simply views their spouse as a vessel for them to have sex with and get off, then i would have to question if there is really any love there...

I see nothing wrong with sex for the sake of the sex…it is a normal healthy human function that was obviously meant to feel good, it is also proven that many who do not have a sexual release can and do become physically ill . If it were only the procreation there would be no need for it feel good….it would just be done for the purpose of having a child. Now…that being said, It’s my opinion that sex for the fun, just for the sake of sex, should be with someone you genuinely care about…..we make a connection in more way than one during the sexual act….there is a Psychic
cord that bonds the two of you for weeks afterwards that most know nothing about…and it effects you in many ways that you know nothing about….you may just wonder why this or that has happened to you…..
Aaaaaanyway....take it for what it's worth to you....

As to the "church"...yes...they made most of it up....they did not following their own teachings at all...


[edit on 6/14/05 by LadyV]

Lady V, most people that are looking for sex just to get off do not have any real feelings for the other person. Also you can masturbate for release and it is not at the expense of another person and then you will not get "ill". Also these days we are flooded with internet porn that so many (mainly guys) are addicted to and a lot of the stuff out there now is pretty sick. A lot of guys looking at online porn get all those images in their head and then when looking to just get off with a girl, they are out there looking just so they can do the stuff they have seen in those images. There is nothing spirtual about any of it...

Originally posted by humbled_one
Spamand ham, i said in my post's i am not talking about 2 people in love, i am talking about sex for just the sake of sex. I also say that i feel it is "wrong" or a "sin" in that sex for just the sake of sex is a thing of the flesh and totally neglects the spirit. ...

I don't think we're making any progress. Very little of what anyone does during the course of a day focuses on the spirit (whatever that means). So what if once in a while you spend an hour with someone focusing on physical pleasure? It's not like you're taking away from all your other intense spiritual activities (like watching TV or poking around on forums) by doing so.

I really don't see the distinction between being in love or not. Even when you love someone, sex is mostly about the pleasure. You might successfully argue that love intensifies the pleasure, but that doesn't change the underlying reason we do it.

If you meet someone, and hook up for mutual pleasure, why is that wrong? You keep talking about it neglecting the spirit, without explaining why that's necessarily the case, or why devoting time and energy to the physical is a vice. Must everything be spiritual?

You seem to just assume that nonspiritual activities are wrong, but we don't all start with that assumption. Besides, sex for fun can have a spiritual aspect. That's the only time some people even call out to god (sorry, I couldn't resist that).

Not everyone views maintenance of the desires of the flesh to be wrong. I see nothing wrong with eating for pleasure, or recreational activities for pleasure, or listening to music for the pleasure of it, or enjoying movies, etc., nor do I see anything injerently wrong with sex for pleasure, as long as there is complete honesty about it. If you lead someone on in order to get them in bed, or if you fail to inform them of diseases you may have been exposed to, or you tell them you're sterile when you're not, etc., then yah, that's definitely wrong.

There are numerous societies where sex is uninhibited, and it's not clear those people are suffering spiritually as a result. The US is one of the most puritan places on earth, and is not obviously more spiritual than anywhere else.

Your not telling me anything I don't already know...you have no idea! I also never said anything about "spirituality" and sex....for "that"....you have to experience "love making" not sex...there is a difference between a true giving of and to each other and just "getting off" for the sake of fun...most people are aware of this, I hope......I was simply explaining that my views on the question put forth....I also believe that most people today do not want to take any responsibility for their own actions...just because the darker side Internet sick stuff is there, doesn’t mean one has to frequent it, I have expressed my views on this many, many time here....support the so called “innocent” porn and you also support the harmful, the abductions, drugging and rapping….. as they are all interwoven together….doesn’t matter though, as people who want their porn will justify it no matter what.

It seems the Old testament does not talk as much about it, but the New Testament talks a lot about it...

In Jewish customs, one way to be "married" is to have consensual sex so it couldn't be "immoral." Other than sex, money and a contract were the other two ways.

I believe that the bible pretty clearly references fornification but do know in some places it is rather vague. I don't think "sex for the sake of sex" was something the church created and then said "bad, don't do it". I think the bible is trying to convey that intercourse should be something that waits for the union of a man and woman. That union has been considered marriage in my mind.

I do understand how it is difficult for humans to "wait" till marriage as sex does seem rather natural and passion can overtake the thought process. If you can wait till marriage, try to. I do think it is what the bible is trying to convey. I will say, I am not so sure you go to hell for sex before marriage. As with many sins, they can be forgiven if you ask them to be and you try and do your best. I don't think God is unreasonable on most topics.