OP/ED: America Bashing: National Sociologism

Originally posted by Astronomer68
I don't believe this country was originally set up with equal voting rights for all. The founding fathers knew the truth of what we are saying here today. It was many, many years later that universal suffrage was instituted. Personally, I think we were wrong to grant everyone an equal right to vote.

Why is that?

I think that voting ought to be classed as a priviledge, not a right, and the priviledge should have to be earned in some way. A period of service to the country (by both young men and women) should be required before a person is granted full citizenship and only full citizens should be allowed to vote.

The whole point of government is to represent its people...not vice versa. Your suggestion for our system would just lead to further corruption. Are you suggesting that nationalism should be shoved down our throats? I'm not owned by the United States government, if I pay my taxes then there's no reason why I shouldn't have a voice. I care more for individual liberty (for everyone) than enforced nationalism.

Edited for unnecessary 'snippiness'

[edit on 6/6/2005 by Lecky]

I did not say military service. Certainly that seems the obvious kind of service for most people, but service in some hospital, or senior citizens home, or the Peace Corps, or whatever would work too. Further, I pointedly said that if the idea seemed to radical for you then come up with another way. Have we come so far from our past that patriotism is a dirty word now? In the words of President John F. Kennedy, during his innaguration, "Ask not what this country can do for you, but rather what you can do for the country".

[edit on 6-6-2005 by Astronomer68]

Bout Time, rather a bit harsh arent you? I dont agree with what Majic is saying in his piece but I dont begrudge him posting it. Since when does an opinion piece have to be on a current event?

Naming all your buddies in your opening line of your diatribe smacks of some kind of 'old boys club' mentality. Who is this upstart posting about his opinion in an editorial?

I'd go so far as to argue that the criticism Americans are facing on this board is both current and relevant.

Remember this if nothing else i've written, you have the right not to read the posts you show no interest in. If you want to complain about these kind of posts, like you have here, write them in your own BLOG

Having A Bash

For those who attack the legitimacy of this thread's existence in the “Other Current Events” forum, I think it is reasonably apparent that the issue is current and of major importance in the world.

This thread is also similar to other threads appearing in this forum which are based on OP/ED articles discussing ATS culture.

The nature of some of the comments made so far in this thread does, in fact, justify its existence. I think the matter is worthy of focused discussion, which is why I brought it up.

People are free to speculate otherwise, and be wrong, as may be their wont, but I encourage open-mindedness as a preferable alternative.

Assumptions are never free, but fraught with unexpected liabilities, and attempts at mind-reading and similar prognostications are best left to other forums.

America Ascendant

As I have pointed out previously, America didn't always occupy the position in world affairs that it does now. As obvious as that may seem, the point often seems to be forgotten when discussing America today.

Yet understanding the events which led to America's position as the world's “sole remaining superpower” (a label I consider false) is necessary to be able to understand why America does what it does.

Failure to understand America's past is guaranteed to result in perpetual confusion as to what America is and where it is headed.

I don't necessarily wish to launch into an in-depth debate on recent American history, but rather point to it as an important prerequisite for being able to intelligently comment on America today.

War And Piece

Specifically, it is my opinion that if one does not understand the significance and ramifications of the Cold War, one cannot possibly understand modern America.

Many people assert that the Cold War is over. I'm not so sure about that, but even if we assume that is true, I am as certain as I can be that the war which has replaced it is much broader in scope and potentially much deadlier in its effects.

And understanding this is something I consider vital to recognizing the forces which shape American policy and which affect the well-being and the future of every human being on the planet.

In this war, America is neither the “good guy” nor the “bad guy”. Rather, it is a self-interested player in a very complex, multidimensional game of global chess in which all the players are equally self-interested, and the stakes are very, very high.

Hidden Agenda

People can reasonably disagree, of course, but my thesis is that what we may call “America bashing” plays into all this.

What may surprise some of my fellow members is that I am confident that a great deal of “America bashing” is, in fact, sponsored by the United States Government.

Why? Discussing this -- and other not-so-obvious aspects of “America bashing”, mass mind control, psychological warfare, information warfare, pro- and anti-U.S. propaganda and who pushes it is the direction I am hoping to go with this discussion.

Interested?

Originally posted by shots
Frankly I think America went wrong by reponding to all the plea's from other countries arround the world for help from us.

The US is not a 911 agency, yet many countries think it is and that is wrong.

Just my two cents which are worth nothing

That's a valid point, IMO, Shots; We do receive a lot of requests for assistance and aid from others and I am proud that we are able and ready to give that assistance when we can. But, that is where the problem lies because then if the majority of the citizens of that particular country take umbrage with US over our aid or interference, as they term it, we become the bad guys. Even if only a minority of people around the world were to find US offensive, the world press and US media would insure that it had the same effect on world opinion.

Thanks for letting me vent, I feel better


Majic, kudos to you, again, for another insightful post.

Seeker

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Passer By
There are ways of defending yourself through purely passive, peaceful means.

This statement is fundamentally wrong. If you have to defend yourself at all, then "passive, peaceful means" will only ensure that you become the victim of whatever is being done to you. Same for countries as it is individuals. Why? Because you have to place yourself at the "mercy" of whoever is trying to do something to you. But, if they were "merciful" at all in the first place, you wouldn't be in this situation.

I agree, completely, Centurion. If you are being attacked or your existance threatened, passive and peaceful means of resistance will only insure that
you are defeated or destroyed that much quicker.

Seeker

Originally posted by Bout Time

Originally posted by Majic
This is an opinion piece,

****
In other words, not only am I certainly wrong in some or all of my viewpoints, but this essay cannot possibly express them in their subtlety,

******

How many, exactly, OP/ED diatribes are going to be thrown as RED MEAT to all the armchair warriors & guardians of American Moral standards, before something is set that automatically sends it to SlugFest or BTS?

..

Bout time, as you stated, it is an OP/ED piece, ie; Opinion/Editorial which is included in the ATS handbook and Policies and Procedures as a valid form of post or contribution to the board. As such, Majic is just as entitled to his own opinions and to make whatever remarks he wishes as long as they are made in a way that is respectful and non-judgmental of others ideas and opinions. If you don't agree with what he writes, so be it, that's your right and you also have the right to add your own comments as to howyou disagree; but don't insult our intelligence with comments about blogs, etc. This is what the boards are for so, please, take adeep breath and relax. Everythings going to be o.k.

seeker

What, flags? Already? Aren't you all supposed to be screaming the pledge of alliegance to drown out other opinions?

1. America, 911!

There's more to this story than hurt feelings. Remember thems folks, the Kurds? Remember, way back when, they asked for American help to take out Saddam? Remember what happened to them?

There's more than that example, of course. Vietnam? Yes, well meaning American world policing. Operation PHEONIX? Good old fashioned help for the poor people of the world!

Somehow, American help always, always ends badly.

The Cold War

Yes, this dread subject. The power players of the world pitted smaller countries against one another. The difference was the tactics- the soviets saw what was coming, and didn't care. The Americans ignored it. Riding the heady wave of accomplishment from the Second World War (yeah, your allies softening up the enemy really helped. Pre-chewed Nazi, anyone?) they ignored the consequences of their actions. Eventually, it came down to one thing, atrocity versus atrocity, and the Russians won that one. The only thing that saved the world was the fact that economies and communism don't mix. Yes, not Mighty Reagan who smote the dirty reds, they fell in on themselves.

Think carefully about this: the KGB was the single greatest intelligence the world had ever seen, much less with its sub-divisions in Bloc countries. Think about all those assasinations, all the information they gleaned...game over, America. Too bad they could pay their spies no more.

3. So? Amerika uber alles!

I love this part. Even now that you've managed screw the world up worse than you can imagine, everything's hunky-dory in the land of the free. Sure, your social security system is in shambles, your medical care open only to the elite, and your schools are cesspits of crime...but that doesn't matter, since America is the mightiest military force in the world!

Russia is basically run by mobsters and ex-spies. Didn't see that one coming, didja? SO much better that those damn dirty reds!

The middle east is on the verge of imploding or exploding- which is anyone's guess at this point. But as long as you have your cable TV, you're fine.

Southeast Asia is a haven for terrorists of every description...well, the parts you didn't obliterate.

The world is so much better, isn't it? Thank you, America. What's the expression? "You may be obliged to wage war, but you are not obliged to use poison arrows."

DE

Originally posted by lightseeker... We do receive a lot of requests for assistance and aid from others and I am proud that we are able and ready to give that assistance when we can. But, that is where the problem lies because then if the majority of the citizens of that particular country take umbrage with US over our aid or interference, as they term it, we become the bad guys.

Your aid comes with many caveats, including repayment and U.S investment rights.

Originally posted by Majic
Why? Discussing this -- and other not-so-obvious aspects of “America bashing”, mass mind control, psychological warfare, information warfare, pro- and anti-U.S. propaganda and who pushes it is the direction I am hoping to go with this discussion.

Interested?

I thought noone would ever ask........

There are many directions this could go......

Per chance a reference card to my first post...?

Originally posted by subz
Bout Time, rather a bit harsh arent you? I dont agree with what Majic is saying in his piece but I dont begrudge him posting it. Since when does an opinion piece have to be on a current event?

For clarification: Majic needs no ones authorization to post whatever his/her heart desires - my point was that this "Op/Ed feeds directly as fodder to the "victimized patriot" mentality over running the board & America in general, by some of our more Jingoistic citizens. My issue is where it's placed - in synopsis, it's nothing more that a political manifesto worthy of being posted, but by no means in the Current Events forum. Those in the middle and/or those looking to improve America need to see cerebral exercises like this because many can't identify all hues of cognitive dissonance yet.

Naming all your buddies in your opening line of your diatribe smacks of some kind of 'old boys club' mentality. Who is this upstart posting about his opinion in an editorial?


Wrong. I simply listed the Moderators of this forum space. My intention was to show that they were asleep at the guard post for not moving this to PTS. Again, I have no gripe with the poster or posting, but with the now fashionable practice of dressing up a leaning ideology as legitimate for universal consumption.

I'd go so far as to argue that the criticism Americans are facing on this board is both current and relevant.

Me too, but again, there are forum categories for this. By leaving it here, it puts legitimacy to many of those criticisms; such as "If America endures it it's an EVENT, yet we've endured it for decades without so much as a whimper!?"

Remember this if nothing else i've written, you have the right not to read the posts you show no interest in. If you want to complain about these kind of posts, like you have here, write them in your own BLOG

Yow!

That one was a swipe, but I understand where you might come from not having the above clarification. I think the "ignore button" is one of the worst features. Why? How can exclusion from a diversity of opinion ever benefit anyone? No, I read everything, and as with this thread, I throw my comments in. These type are my least favorite because they mimic the self appointed rent-a-cop/Mod gripings that I rip others for. But, it's clearly necessary in this case to weigh a vocal counterpoint into the record.

Originally posted by Bout Time
Me too, but again, there are forum categories for this. By leaving it here, it puts legitimacy to many of those criticisms; such as "If America endures it it's an EVENT, yet we've endured it for decades without so much as a whimper!?"

Thanks for the clarification. I didnt notice this was in "Other Current Events", I followed the link to this thread from a post Majic sent in another ATSNN thread. I assumed, wrongly, that it was posted in the general "news" section as an Opinion piece. A piece that was commenting on the general "news" in ATSNN that is increasingly portraying America in a negative light.

Oh well, no harm done and we both agree

edit: Also, posting these kind of jingoistic style threads does nothing to strengthen their cause. I find they merely create another platform to disabuse the reader of their misplaced patriotism.

[edit on 8/6/05 by subz]

You have voted Bout Time for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Harsh indeed, but warranted......

........anybody for Cumbaya?