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JSF and ALARM the most powerfull SEAD solution EVER?

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RAB

posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:01 AM
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Ok some may think that this belongs in that weps section but I do NOT! As it's the F-35 that will provide the must important bit in this idea.

Right may thoughts, the RAF ALARM missile is a bit big:

Primary Function: Air-to-ground tactical anti-radar missile
Weight: 265 kilograms (583 pounds)
Length: 4.30m (169 inches)
Guidance System: Passive Radar Homing

Source: RAF website www.raf.mod.uk ot more detail at:
www.fas.org...

OK so I think it's a safe bet to say that it will not fit in the internal bays, so the RAF will carry four under the wings, this raises one or maybe two questions.

1. The alarm is a passive missile so could a sam detect the missile on the F35 before firing?

2. Just assuming the the SAM cannot see the F35 loaded with the alarms, would the F35 be in a position to obtain the targeting information using it's own radar. Or as I think will the F35 have to get the targeting information from a AWACS platform or blind fire the missile?

3. Has the F-35 have PIRATE?

Or I'm I confused?

RAB




posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:37 AM
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Originally posted by RAB


3. Has the F-35 have PIRATE?

Or I'm I confused?


The Eurofighter has the PIRATE, not the F-35.



The PIRATE, or Passive Infra Red Airborne Tracking Equipment is a 2nd generation Imaging Infra Red (IIR) system and performs this duty of passive detection. PIRATE is constructed by the EuroFirst consortium led by Pilkington-Thorn Optronics (now Thales Optronics).

PIRATE incorporates both a Forward Looking Infra Red (or FLIR) and Infra Red Search and Track (or IRST) capability. The system itself utilises a highly sensitive Infra Red sensor mounted to the port side of the canopy. This equipment scans across wavelengths from 3 to 11 µm in two bands. This allows the detection of both the hot exhaust plumes of jet engines as well as surface heating caused by friction. By supercooling the sensor even small variations in temperature can be detected at long range. Although no definitive ranges have been released an upper limit of 80nm has been hinted at, a more typical figure would be 30 to 50nm. The use of processing techniques further enhances the output, giving a near high resolution image of targets. The actual output from the system can be directed to any of the Multi-function Head Down Displays mounted within the cockpit. Additionally the image can be overlaid on both the Helmet Mounted Sight and Head Up Display.

The IIR sensor is stabilised within its mount so that it can maintain a target within its field of view. Up to 200 targets can be simultaneously tracked by the system using one of several different modes; Multiple Target Track (MTT), Single Target Track (STT), Single Target Track Ident (STTI), Sector Acquisition and Slaved Acquisition. In MTT mode the system will scan a designated volume space looking for potential targets. In STT mode PIRATE will provide high precision tracking of a single designated target. An addition to this mode, STT Ident allows for visual identification of the target, the resolution being superior to that provided by CAPTOR. Both Sector and Slave Acquisition demonstrate the level of sensor fusion present in the Typhoon. When in Sector Acquisition mode PIRATE will scan a volume of space under direction of another Typhoon sensor such as CAPTOR. In Slave Acquisition the use of off-board sensors is made with PIRATE being commanded by data obtained from an AWACS for example. When a target is found in either of these modes PIRATE will automatically designate it and switch to STT.

Once a target has been tracked and identified PIRATE can be used to cue an appropriately equipped short range missile, i.e. a missile with a high off-boresight tracking capability such as ASRAAM. Additionally the data can be used to augment that of CAPTOR or off-board sensor information via the AIS. This should enable the Typhoon to overcome severe ECM environments and still engage its targets.


The F-35 might have its own pirate equivalent system because its is stealthy.

I bet the good people at BAe cant wait to get thier hands on the F-35's equivalent system and incorporate some of its more advanced elements in the Typhoon. (without sharing Germany the details of it)



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:40 AM
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oops... the quote on the pirate was from here

I've been warned for like 20 times for not giving the source URL by seek.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:51 AM
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Stealth Spy, PIRATE is the most advanced system of its kind in the world and is one of the technologies that the US has bought in for the F/A-22 so I don't think BAE will be pinching anything from the F-35. Of course he system will be improved upon but this is likely to be a joint effort.

RAB - I am going to read a little more about this and come back but I think the ALARM locks onto the radar signal from the enemy unit that is searching for it so if the ALARM carrying plane is detected it is already too late as it is a self launching weapon (if so selectedf by the pilot - which he would of course) and it will already be on its way. I think that once the missile is launched it would be a good idea to jettison the pylons too as this would maximise the stealth aspect of the carrier plane but I don't know if its a feature they are going to build in.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by waynos
Stealth Spy, PIRATE is the most advanced system of its kind in the world and is one of the technologies that the US has bought in for the F/A-22


That's an astounding post. But i wont be surprised if its true.

Any links to support your claim.

Question : Will Germany, Spain, Italy be getting the F-35 too ??



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 09:02 AM
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It would appear that I was wrong about 'self launch' and having read the spec it appears that the missile is cleverer than me


There is a good page about the ALARM at ausairpower.net (just google BAe ALARM) and as it is an overseas site discussing Australia buying the missile it isn't full of BAE sales guff


it also includes this interesting quote;


Many anecdotes exist concerning particularly US aircrew, who unfamiliar with the ALARM's vertical mode of attack, believed a SAM had been launched at them. Stories also abound of RAF aircrew calling out ALARM launches on open frequencies, upon which the eavesdropping Iraqis would shut down for several minutes, regardless of whether a missile had actually been launched ! (BAe)



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by Stealth Spy

Originally posted by waynos
Stealth Spy, PIRATE is the most advanced system of its kind in the world and is one of the technologies that the US has bought in for the F/A-22


That's an astounding post. But i wont be surprised if its true.

Any links to support your claim.

Question : Will Germany, Spain, Italy be getting the F-35 too ??


I seem to have jumped the gun on Pirate being in the Raptor. A net search has turned up nothing but I have a printed source which tells of Lockheed 'talking about' incorporating the system, which I have mistakenly assumed meant that it has happened so I have no option but to retract that part of my post.

Funnily enought I have found no reference to ANY IRST system on board the Raptor - which I find hard to believe. Have I missed it or could it be that buying in PIRATE was supposed to be a secret



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Greetings,

Waynos, I hadn't heard about the Alarm calls, I have to say good post!

Just out of interest, will the Americans be employing this missile system on their F-35 fleet or will they stick with their "Harms"

Also just out of interest, with the future of UCAVS taking over the SEAD roles, and the RAF prefering off the shelve options, if the RAF pick the X-45 will the Alarm be fitted or will it even be able to fit into the bomb bay?

As for the Racks, I don't believe that you can drop your mounts while in the air, unless they are retrackable

- Phil



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 09:30 AM
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The Raptor has it's own IRST search system, but it's true that there is very little info about it. I think it is made be Lockheed too, but I'm not 100% sure. However considering the Raptor stealth aspects I think it has very advanced IRST.

Considering Alarm or Harm - I think there will be newer versions made especially for JSF and F-22. Carrying them externally doesn't make sense. The weight and length is OK the only problem is with missile wingspan.



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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Thanks longbow, I was sure it had to have one. I suppose its now a question of whether the one installed was based by Lockheed on the PIRATE system or not, if anyone knows?


RAB

posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 11:10 AM
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Cannot find any info on the Lockmart website on the IRST system for the F22 I too cannot see it not having such a system.

But did find this page:

www.missilesandfirecontrol.com...

Which is all about the IRST system on the JSF and shows that they have been working with BAE systems on it, so the PIRATE system in one version or another may be on the JSF, Typhoon and maybe just maybe the F22.

RAB



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 11:26 AM
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F-22 - well there is really a very little info about it, just how advanced it is etc. It looks like it is/soon will be Lockheeds Advanced Infrared Search and Track and it will be probably used for Superhornets too. I don't know if it's Pirate based, it looks more like a improvement of older IRS&T (developed for F-14 Super Tomcat). I should be carried in wing roots and operate through faceted windows. I don't know if it is already installed in current models, because some older google results claimed F-22 has only "provisions" for IRS&T(empty space in wing roots and windows).


The JSF will have either :
- Northrop Grumman's Distributed Aperture System (DAS) or
- Lockheed Martin's Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS).
No more info about them, except some schemes of DAS I saw and it looks like the components are distributed along the fuselage (hence the name distributed.

This site has some DAS/EOTS images (right side). The same site claims that Lockheed and Northop are not competitors and the DAS/EOTS is developed jointly.

EDIT another link


ockheed Martin Missile & Fire Control and Northrop Grumman Electronic Sensors and Systems are jointly responsible for the JSF electro-optical system. A Lockheed Martin electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) will provide long-range detection and precision targeting, along with the Northrop Grumman DAS (Distributed Aperture System) thermal imaging system. EOTS will be based on the Sniper XL pod developed for the F-16, which incorporates a mid-wave third generation FLIR, dual mode laser, CCD TV, laser tracker and laser marker. BAE Systems Avionics in Edinburgh, Scotland will provide the laser systems. DAS consists of multiple infrared cameras (supplied by Indigo Systems of Goleta, California) providing 360º coverage using advanced signal conditioning algorithms. As well as situational awareness, DAS provides navigation, missile warning and infrared search and track (IRST). EOTS is embedded under the aircraft’s nose, and DAS sensors are fitted at multiple locations on the aircraft.

It looks like it's based on Sniper X and BAE provides only the laser tracker/rangfinder.


[edit on 4-6-2005 by longbow]



posted on Jun, 4 2005 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by RAB
Ok some may think that this belongs in that weps section but I do NOT! As it's the F-35 that will provide the must important bit in this idea.

Right may thoughts, the RAF ALARM missile is a bit big:

Primary Function: Air-to-ground tactical anti-radar missile
Weight: 265 kilograms (583 pounds)
Length: 4.30m (169 inches)
Guidance System: Passive Radar Homing

Source: RAF website www.raf.mod.uk ot more detail at:
www.fas.org...

OK so I think it's a safe bet to say that it will not fit in the internal bays, so the RAF will carry four under the wings, this raises one or maybe two questions.

1. The alarm is a passive missile so could a sam detect the missile on the F35 before firing?

2. Just assuming the the SAM cannot see the F35 loaded with the alarms, would the F35 be in a position to obtain the targeting information using it's own radar. Or as I think will the F35 have to get the targeting information from a AWACS platform or blind fire the missile?

3. Has the F-35 have PIRATE?

Or I'm I confused?

RAB


Folks, I think you are confused here! PIRATE is in inferred targeting system. Anti-Radar Missiles are targeted using a Radar Homing And Warning Reciever. They home in on the radar signal from the radar site they are targeting.


RAB

posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 07:34 AM
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Folks, I think you are confused here! PIRATE is in inferred targeting system. Anti-Radar Missiles are targeted using a Radar Homing And Warning Reciever. They home in on the radar signal from the radar site they are targeting.


Can the SAM radar not detect the fact that the Radar Homing And Warning Reciever stuff is picking up the radar, and then work back?

Reason for asking about PIRATE is that you could fly with your radar off, to the rough target area then blind fire the ALARM or HARM missile, and the RADAR guys would be none the wiser!

RAB



posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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A new version of the HARM is being developed at the moment.



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 03:48 AM
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Originally posted by RAB
Folks, I think you are confused here! PIRATE is in inferred targeting system. Anti-Radar Missiles are targeted using a Radar Homing And Warning Reciever. They home in on the radar signal from the radar site they are targeting.


Can the SAM radar not detect the fact that the Radar Homing And Warning Reciever stuff is picking up the radar, and then work back?

the system is PASSIVE so how could a radar detect it

Reason for asking about PIRATE is that you could fly with your radar off, to the rough target area then blind fire the ALARM or HARM missile, and the RADAR guys would be none the wiser!


welcome to a weasel mission!

RAB



posted on Jun, 7 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by RAB
Can the SAM radar not detect the fact that the Radar Homing And Warning Reciever stuff is picking up the radar, and then work back?
RAB


No, a Radar Homing and Warning Reciver(RHWR) is 100% passive! All the RHWR is, is an antanna. It dosen't transmitte anything. It collects radar waves from the air and indentifyies the wavelength and frequency. You need a transmittion signal to detect it.

Think of it like someone hiding in a locked closet listening as you talk to you friend in an office. If you can't open the closet, you'll never find him because he is not making any noise. You can't hear someone listening, can you?




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