Jesus, Moshiach and Mohammed

The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.

Anyhow, my point of this is why in these three major religions are we taught to trust in these grand mythical beings as well as God and not just God itself?

I am not big believing in my birth religion but I do believe there is a higher being/power in this world and that Jesus/Mohammed and Moshiach are creations of a devilish persuasion to encourage people to waiver their faith and stretch it thin between two beings instead of one. Aren't we supposed to give our undevided attention to God and only God? No false idols (ala. the story with Moses on Mt Sinai and the golden idols).

P.S. I am Jewish by birth and I am glad in a way they do not have a huge emphasis on their saviour Moshiach as Christianity and the Muslims faiths do.

Any thoughts on this?

I'm not sure about Jesus, but Muhammad was far from a mythical being. There is a LOT of history and documentation proving his existence. Sure, if anyone says that Muhammad was God, or half-God, or set above all other humans, they would be a fool. Muhammad himself denied that. We all have the capability of being like him. The prophet requires no worship. They are/were there just to show the way.
But I suppose I agree with you in spirit. God is God, and man is man. You shouldn't mix the two

Originally posted by Logsti
The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.

Anyhow, my point of this is why in these three major religions are we taught to trust in these grand mythical beings as well as God and not just God itself?

I am not big believing in my birth religion but I do believe there is a higher being/power in this world and that Jesus/Mohammed and Moshiach are creations of a devilish persuasion to encourage people to waiver their faith and stretch it thin between two beings instead of one. Aren't we supposed to give our undevided attention to God and only God? No false idols (ala. the story with Moses on Mt Sinai and the golden idols).

P.S. I am Jewish by birth and I am glad in a way they do not have a huge emphasis on their saviour Moshiach as Christianity and the Muslims faiths do.

Any thoughts on this?

the 5 things that a muslim should belive or his not a musilim is:

1- The book that came from God ( Torah, Ingial (bible), Quran ...)

2- His prophets ( Mohammed, Mosa , Noah , Jesus( Esia)

3- Angels

4- Life/ Death and Judment Day , as well as Fate

5- Only one God

As in the Quran does not nly talk about Prohpet Muhammed but also about Noah , Jesus and Mosa many many others

Originally posted by Logsti
The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.


Any thoughts on this?

The Three Major Religions, were all created from/in the Desert.
All three religions are Male Dominated, Partriarchial models.

all three came about by 'overthrowing' the older Goddess/nature/Gaia/Sophia model religions

?why? do they follow certain dogmas & rituals?-> to perpetuate their worldview(s)...
one of which, is that mankind must undergo the hammerings and fires of the worlds' black-smiths...
to be formed into a strong & resilient steel, which is then fashioned into useful tools by those priestly smiths',


that is one tiny package of thought i have about the Big 3 desert born faiths

Originally posted by Logsti
The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.

Any thoughts on this?

Any thoughts? More than you ever bargain for!!! I think you are a white-skinned European/American with a bloated ego, it is so typical that Westerner see themself as the centre of the world and carefully ignoring the lesser nation.

Where is India and China? do they not on this planet? if they do, Buddhism, Hinduism are surely more major and bigger than Judaism

Let me list down the four major/biggest religions in the world (planet Earth) for you... i.e. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, well... if you consider Buddhism = Hinduism then they are the biggest religion in the World

- peace -

I don't know anything about Moshiach, but in the case of Jesus and Mohammed, I do. Both of them were considered to be God's messengers on earth, and their main purpose in life was to spread the word and teachings of God/Allah. (whether or not you believe those claims is a different story, but that is what followers of those religions believe) In the case of Jesus, his other main purpose was to atone for the sins of mankind, which as the son of God, he was the only person who could do this. Muslims do not consider Mohammed to be divine in any way, just a really great man and a prophet, like Moses or Abraham.

As to the false idols bit, all three religions you name are adamantly opposed to the worship of false idols. All three pray only to one God. Christians do not pray to Jesus, only to God the Father. Judaism doesn't recognize Jesus as a saviour, so that isn't even an issue for them. Neither of those two religions make any kind of statues or images of God the Father. Muslims take it a step further. They don't even make any images of Mohammed, to avoid even the temptation of treating them like idols. I spoke to a couple of Muslim friends, and they were telling me about some plans a director had for a movie about the life of Mohammed, until he learned that he wouldn't be able to have Mohammed appear in the movie, unless he wanted to anger a whole bunch of Muslims.

One last point. You mention "The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim". I think it would be better to further qualify that, and state the three major western monotheistic religions. Betaiso has a point when he mentions eastern religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism (although I tend to view Buddhism more as a philosophy than a religion, since there is no divine being to worship)

Originally posted by DragonsDemesne
I spoke to a couple of Muslim friends, and they were telling me about some plans a director had for a movie about the life of Mohammed, until he learned that he wouldn't be able to have Mohammed appear in the movie, unless he wanted to anger a whole bunch of Muslims.

Heheh...they actually made one. Imagine, an entire movie about Muhammad, and they didn't even show him. Must have taken a lot of work.

Originally posted by betaiso

Originally posted by Logsti
The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.

Any thoughts on this?

Any thoughts? More than you ever bargain for!!! I think you are a white-skinned European/American with a bloated ego, it is so typical that Westerner see themself as the centre of the world and carefully ignoring the lesser nation.

Where is India and China? do they not on this planet? if they do, Buddhism, Hinduism are surely more major and bigger than Judaism

Let me list down the four major/biggest religions in the world (planet Earth) for you... i.e. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, well... if you consider Buddhism = Hinduism then they are the biggest religion in the World

- peace -

Err...wrong. I am white (so what!) but I am from New Zealand. We are very open minded and actually know about other countries and religions in the world unlike most ignorant others. I agree that Budism is more like a philosphy than a religion and Jewish is important because it is basically the source of all the other modern religions (not including things stolen from Pagan religions)

Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by Logsti
The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.


Any thoughts on this?

The Three Major Religions, were all created from/in the Desert.
All three religions are Male Dominated, Partriarchial models.

all three came about by 'overthrowing' the older Goddess/nature/Gaia/Sophia model religions

?why? do they follow certain dogmas & rituals?-> to perpetuate their worldview(s)...
one of which, is that mankind must undergo the hammerings and fires of the worlds' black-smiths...
to be formed into a strong & resilient steel, which is then fashioned into useful tools by those priestly smiths',


that is one tiny package of thought i have about the Big 3 desert born faiths

Nearly all prophet used to work as a those guys who take care of the cattle intersting huh.
Muhammed is writen in the bible and Torah as well

Originally posted by Logsti
The Three major religions Christianity/Judaism/Muslim.

All have a major profit or saviour depicted in each of their histories as to which people are to believe in and follow in order to be a better Christian/Jew/Muslim.

Anyhow, my point of this is why in these three major religions are we taught to trust in these grand mythical beings as well as God and not just God itself?

P.S. I am Jewish by birth and I am glad in a way they do not have a huge emphasis on their saviour Moshiach as Christianity and the Muslims faiths do.

Any thoughts on this?

Well, I don't think Judaism holds that the Anointed One is a mythical being and it certainly doesn't espousing "trusting" in the Anointed One more than Ha-Shem (lit. The Name, that is to say, YH"H).

Nevertheless, Jewish mysticism, like nascent Christianity, fell under the spell of the religious syncretism (i.e., the proto-Gnosticism) of the Common Era. That's why some Cabalists view Adam Kadmon, the Primal Man, as being the pre-existent Anointed One.

Likewise, Christendom came to view the historical Yeshua ben Yosef as a pre-existent Divine and/or Angelic Being, through whom G_d wrought creation, etc. Many Messianic Christians are quick to jump on this teaching regarding Adam Kadmon as proof that their POV about "Jesus" is correct. :shk: Sadly, such proto-Gnostic nonesense does more harm than good in the quest for the historical man - Yeshua ben Yosef.

As for Islam.... What can I say? It's a religion born out of a mixture of Judaism and Christianity and pre-Islamic tribal culture.

The "Messianic Ideal" in Judaism (and Christianity) shouldn't detract from one's devotion to and exclusive trust in the Divine, though, sadly, it frequently has been the source of much division and angst and has led to no end of "side-tracking". Let's just hope that by the time the Anointed One sits upon the Throne of David ... and I'm not holding my breath ... we've got our defecation coagulated, so his reign won't smack of the tyranny of the Taliban.

[edit on 5-6-2005 by smadewell]

Originally posted by Logsti
and Jewish is important because it is basically the source of all the other modern religions (not including things stolen from Pagan religions)

Yes the Jewish religion was important, but then Jesus came and He is our savior. Im assuming the pagan thing is directed at catholics(which most of those outragouse remarks are). There is no paganism in it. There were like some symbols they took on just to make the transition to christianity easier, but I never see them anywhere. Anyway

external image

Originally posted by Croat56

Originally posted by Logsti
and Jewish is important because it is basically the source of all the other modern religions (not including things stolen from Pagan religions)

Yes the Jewish religion was important, but then Jesus came and He is our savior. Im assuming the pagan thing is directed at catholics(which most of those outragouse remarks are). There is no paganism in it. There were like some symbols they took on just to make the transition to christianity easier, but I never see them anywhere.

Wow! You're one to talk about remarks being outrageous. "The Jewish religion WAS important" ... ? Was? "Then Jesus came and He is our savior" ... ? Wow! Talk about being ethnocentristic! Ah, you’ve gotta love the blessed face of Replacement Theology.

Croat56, I'd expect those remarks from a backwoods Christian Fundie, but not from an enlighten Catholic gentlemen like yourself. Then again.... I guess the pronouncements that came out of the Second Vatican Council regarding Judaism haven't exactly trickled down to the laity yet. After all it’s only been what...? 40 years!? :shk:

Sadly, there's no way of talking to someone like yourself about the historical person, Yeshua ben Yosef (aka Jesus), especially in light of the fact that you haven't adopted the "official line" of your own Church with regard to Judaism. How sad.... :shk:

Anyway, ... thank you very much for marginalizing Judaism and relegating it to the status of a bygone faith that holds little - if any - importance in this day and age. How very ecumenical of you! That kind of rhetoric is sure to advance the Jewish-Christian dialogue for centuries to come. NOT!

To get respect one must show respect....


Judaism vs. the Catholic Croatian Jedi.
Holocaust much?

[edit on 5-6-2005 by smadewell]

Your right smadewell. I didnt meant to say it like that. The Jewish religion is very important. It layed the way for Jesus to come. I meant to say it was important for Jesus to come. Jesus was jewish. The old testiment is cool .


[edit on 6/5/2005 by Croat56]

Originally posted by Croat56
Your right smadewell. I didnt meant to say it like that. The Jewish religion is very important. It layed the way for Jesus to come. I meant to say it was important for Jesus to come. Jesus was jewish. The old testiment is cool

.
[edit on 6/5/2005 by Croat56]

Whew! You really pushed my button there! Just so you know.... I'm not a Christian or a Jew or a Messianic or a Muslim or a neo-Pagan, etc.... I'm just a simple student of comparative religions with a strong affinity for Jews, Judaism and the historical man, Yeshua ben Yosef. It's difficult to navigate my little ship in these stormy waters and harder still to keep an even keel while avoiding the rocks of religious fervor and the shoals of religious intolerance.

Originally posted by smadewell
Croat56, I'd expect those remarks from a backwoods Christian Fundie, but not from an enlighten Catholic gentlemen like yourself. Then again.... I guess the pronouncements that came out of the Second Vatican Council regarding Judaism haven't exactly trickled down to the laity yet. After all it’s only been what...? 40 years!? :shk:

Sadly, there's no way of talking to someone like yourself about the historical person, Yeshua ben Yosef (aka Jesus), especially in light of the fact that you haven't adopted the "official line" of your own Church with regard to Judaism. How sad.... :shk:

While I agree that Croat's statement wasn't "politically correct", I do not think it disagrees with the "official line" of the RCC.

The history of Judaism did not end with the destruction of Jerusalem, but rather went on to develop a religious tradition. And, although we believe that the importance and meaning of that tradition were deeply affected by the coming of Christ, it is still nonetheless rich in religious values.
Source


One should never have to resort to logical fallacies to support their position. Argumentum ad hominem is a logical fallacy.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO
While I agree that Croat's statement wasn't "politically correct", I do not think it disagrees with the "official line" of the RCC.

The history of Judaism did not end with the destruction of Jerusalem, but rather went on to develop a religious tradition. And, although we believe that the importance and meaning of that tradition were deeply affected by the coming of Christ, it is still nonetheless rich in religious values.
Source

An effort will be made to acquire a better understanding of whatever in the Old Testament retains its own perpetual value....

Lest the witness of Catholics to Jesus Christ should give offence to Jews, they must take care to live and spread their Christian faith while maintaining the strictest respect for religious liberty in line with the teaching of the Second Vatican Council.... They will likewise strive to understand the difficulties which arise for the Jewish soul....

To improve Jewish-Christian relations, it is important to take cognizance of those common elements of the liturgical life (formulas, feasts, rites, etc.) in which the Bible holds an essential place....

The Old Testament and the Jewish tradition founded upon it must not be set against the New Testament in such a way that the former seems to constitute a religion of only justice, fear and legalism, with no appeal to the love of God and neighbour....

The Second Vatican Council has pointed out the path to follow in promoting deep fellowship between Jews and Christians....

I could multiply such quotes, but I think these will suffice to demonstrate that the RCC, via the Second Vatican Council, has taken a huge step forward in attempting to mend and heal Jewish-Christian relations, if not in deed, then at least in word. I just wish more of the Catholic laity would take this document to heart.

"We are the origins of war. Not history’s forces nor the times nor justice nor the lack of it nor causes nor religions nor ideas nor kinds of government nor any other thing! We are the killers; we breed war. We carry it, like syphilis, inside. Dead bodies rot in field and stream because the living ones are rotten. For the love of God, can’t we love one another just a little? That’s how peace begins. We have so much to love each other for. We have such possibilities, my children; we could change the world." - Eleanor of Aquitaine (played by Katharine Hepburn) in The Lion in Winter (1968)

Originally posted by smadewell
I could multiply such quotes, but I think these will suffice to demonstrate that the RCC, via the Second Vatican Council, has taken a huge step forward in attempting to mend and heal Jewish-Christian relations, if not in deed, then at least in word. I just wish more of the Catholic laity would take this document to heart.

The quote I gave from the Guidelines and Suggestions for Implementing the Conciliar Declaration "Nostra Aetate" is the "official line" concerning the Second Vatican Council's declaration. I do not think Croat disagreed with that "official line". There is no getting around the issue that from a RCC perspective the importance of Jewish tradition was "deeply affected" by the coming of Christ.

Not being able to mention that issue for fear of upsetting someone is rediculous.

Originally posted by Raphael_UO

Originally posted by smadewell
I could multiply such quotes, but I think these will suffice to demonstrate that the RCC, via the Second Vatican Council, has taken a huge step forward in attempting to mend and heal Jewish-Christian relations, if not in deed, then at least in word. I just wish more of the Catholic laity would take this document to heart.

The quote I gave from the Guidelines and Suggestions for Implementing the Conciliar Declaration "Nostra Aetate" is the "official line" concerning the Second Vatican Council's declaration. I do not think Croat disagreed with that "official line". There is no getting around the issue that from a RCC perspective the importance of Jewish tradition was "deeply affected" by the coming of Christ.

Not being able to mention that issue for fear of upsetting someone is ridiculous.

True enough.... All I meant was that in light of the Second Vatican Council, I think the RCC has distanced itself from Replacement Theology and now views Judaism as a living Covenant in its own right and not a bygone and long since dead faith that the Almighty has divorced Himself from, which is how I initially took Croat56's comment, "... the Jewish religion was important".

The RCC is now open to struggling with the "mystery of Israel" and, of course, it's going to continue viewing Judaism through its "Jesus" coloured glasses. That's a given.... Still.... At least there's some hope for dialogue, no?

A couple of excerpts from Franz Mussner's "Tractate on the Jews" (Chap. 8, "The Church and Israel: A Brief Commentary on Nostra Aetate, 4," pp. 251-252) ... :

"The Church Has Received from Israel the Revelation of the Old Covenant Which Has Found Its Written Form in the Old Testament. The Holy Scripture of Israel is an essential portion of the Holy Scriptures of the Church. The Old Testament is, however, not the sole property of the Church; it is rather a loan of Israel to the Church, which is important for the Church because without the Old Testament the Church loses its identity and its self-understanding, as the experience of history shows. 'The Old Testament is the common foundation, the theological and historical root of Judaism and Christianity.'

The Church Is Nourished by the 'Root of the Good Olive Tree.' The good olive tree is Israel. The nourishment which the Church received from it is not merely the Holy Scripture of the ancient covenant, but also 'the Jewish categories,' of which humanity has need in order to be able to think in a saving way. It is precisely in view of that great heritage of faith of Israel which has gone over into the Church that Israel shows itself as the good olive tree.

The Jews Are 'Still Always Beloved of God for the Sake of the Fathers.' God HAS NOT rejected or forgotten His people Israel. God holds His Hand protectingly over His people and will save all Israel in the end (Rom. 11:26). In the continuation of Israel through all ages the loyalty of God to His promises is shown. Israel is the continuing witness to the loyalty and truthfulness of God in the world.

Despite the Death of Jesus on the Cross the Jews MAY NOT be Seen as 'Rejected or Accursed by God.' The remembrance of the crucifixion of Jesus, which was the work of the pagan Roman state power, misleads Christianity time and again to legitimate in a pseudo-theological way its anti-Semitism and to hold up the thesis of 'deicide' and of 'self-cursing' by the Jews. The Council 'deplores all hatreds, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism levelled at any time or from any source against the Jews.' The anti-Semitism which has fed the Church for centuries belongs to its great sins of history. The Church must constantly ask God for forgiveness for this guilt."

This is a far better approach than the one the Church pursued during the Middle Ages, no?

Originally posted by smadewell
At least there's some hope for dialogue, no?

Where there is a willingness to have a dialogue there is always hope. But dialogues by their nature require two sides.

This is a far better approach than the one the Church pursued during the Middle Ages, no?

The purpose of history is to learn from mistakes of the past so one can avoid repeating them. If the approach is not better, then one did not learn.

I can tell that you aren't a practicing Jew and something tells me that you're either really young or really uneducated about Judaism. Jews are taught to believe the prophets but the prophets have no bearing on being better Jews. That comes from following the laws and commandments given by G-d. Judaism focuses on establishing a relationship with G-d and G-d alone. We don't pray to Moses, Abraham, Jacob, David, etc. We don't worship them. We don't follow them. You should also know that in Judaism, there is no devil/satan/etc. The role of the moshiach is to fulfill all prophecy and lead the Jews. We aren't taught that this will be a person that we will follow. He will serve more as a chief rabbi. As you should know, rabbi means teach. If you've been to services at the shul, then you would know that it's teaching and not preaching. Our undivided attention goes to G-d and following the laws laid down by him. The only thing that I saw you get right was that there is not a huge emphasis on the moshiach. I'm sad for you. Those are my thoughts. Sadness.