Is the Rapture even real.

Isaiah 25:8
Revelation 7:17

As far as Elijah leaving--did he leave behind a wife and kids? Elisha continued on--with a double helping of the Spirit to boost--and in everyday life.

The way I hear it, the rapture will cause all God's people to not only leave behind their loved ones, but it will be in a place totally devoid of God's Spirit and at a time which will make Auschwitz seem like summer camp!

Whomever it is, that you love dearly, do you ever feel anything beside anticipation of relief when you think that you could be leaving them behind in such a desolate existence while you wait on them, without worry or suffering of any kind?

Glorying the LORD does not come by leaving the world to misery---look how many atheists there are today--and those that otherwise reject God. How many times have you heard that it is because they can't reconcile the misery of the world with the existence of a loving God. Do you think that the disappearance of all God's witnesses/lights is going to make them suddenly believe? If they don't believe in God now, they'll just find another rationale for your disappearance and continue on. And those that did, somewhat, will likely change their minds over the course of the 'great tribulation'-when they're supposedly in agony during plagues and all sorts of evil that supposedly is to come. When a young wife and mother is left behind with two small kids, and looting riff-raff come into her home to steal food or maybe the clean water she's stored up (when the seas turn to blood?) and when she resists out of love for her babies--when they then kill her babies and rape her and leave her for dead--is she going to suddenly believe that God is real, and love Him? Or might she believe He's real and think she'd rather go to some place called hell?

Be real! Put yourself in her shoes. Remember she has not the faith you have--God is not a certainty at the time of the 'rapture,' even though it would seem her husband was sure and in being faithful to God was not able to continue to be faithful in his vows to her. (In sickness and in health, rich or poor, until death do we part) He's not dead! He's in heaven! Did he break his vows? Will God's vow to save nullify our vows of love to each other?

You make the call.

Originally posted by jake1997

If you had read that with the love of God in your heart, you would not have seen smugness. The smugness existed only in your heart

The smugness is in your heart, dear friend. Shadow was merely making an observation, not requesting judgment of the contents of the heart.

Our words show what is in our hearts, and none can hide their heart from God.

Originally posted by queenannie38
Isaiah 25:8
Revelation 7:17

The way I hear it, the rapture will cause all God's people to not only leave behind their loved ones, but it will be in a place totally devoid of God's Spirit.

Do you think that the disappearance of all God's witnesses/lights is going to make them suddenly believe?

Be real!

I have read the 2 verses before that you mentioned, and there is one of 2 ways you can go on those verses.
1. When we meet God face to face there will be no more crying.
or
2. If God wipes away our tears, then there must be tears shed that He needs to wipe away.

As far as Elijah leaving behind family members, I'm sure he did. They might have been cousins or nephews but he probably had family.

I'm curious as to your nonresponse to Enoch's disappearance. He clearly had at least had one son whom he left behind, this did not prevent God from taking Enoch. Also people lose loved ones to death all the time. This creates a loss and void in people's lives so I simply do not see the point of God not removing us because we would have to leave others that we love behind and have pain arise. That happens all the time.


From what I have studied and read, after the rapture The Holy Spirit will revert to how He operated in the OT. He will still be at work saving people but operating a little differently. Revelation 7:9-17 tells us that a great multitude of people, so big they couldn't be counted, will be saved by placing their faith in Jesus during the tribulation period. Later on in Revelation we see another group that is saved by trusting Christ, but they will be beheaded. So the Bible clearly tells us that salvation will come to millions possibly billions after the rapture.

You asked me to be real so here goes. I certainly do believe that the disappearance of millions of christians will open the eyes of a vast number of people. If a believing husband, tells his unbelieving wife that someday christians will be removed from the earth he has planted a seed in her head and heart. When his actual disappearance happens, what is going to be the first thought when she can't find him. It will be the memories of him telling her that God would come to get him and that such an event is from God. This will do a vast work in her life toward accepting Christ. I also believe the children will be removed by God to heaven.

I have told my kids alot of things that God impresses upon my spirit before it happens. Then when it happens they are impressed that I knew before hand. I tell them God told me and this will impress upon them that God is REAL and He relates to people. People need to know that God is real, because we can't see Him with our eyes at this time, but someday we will, so for now we must use our faith to see Him. Faith starts small and grows by the experiences we have with God.

So now I'm going to be more real and tell you something I believe with all my heart God told me.

Isaiah 55:8-9 tells us,(this is God speaking) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.


Right now, when a person has children they are vaccinated against diseases. The child does not have the disease. The parent allows the child to get a shot that will make the child cry and possibly cause a sore muscle at the injection site that can cause pain for a couple of days. The child would rather not get the shot and experience the pain but the parents KNOW that a couple of days worth of shortlived pain now will prevent a longer painful period later. Without the vaccination the child could get a disease that handicaps them and could cause years of painful suffering. The parents are preventing a future lenghthy period of pain for the child by allowing the painful, scary shot.

Apply this Biblically and spiritually now. The Bible clearly tells us that those who accept Christ will enter heaven and escape eternity in hell. Those who reject Christ will spend eternity in hell. Each person will spend a relatively short amount of time(70 or 80 years) here on earth before they physically die and enter eternity(in one of 2 places, heaven with God, or hell without Him), then each persons eternal existance will last forever and ever and ever and ever and so on and so on and will never stop, ever.

God knows this, and has stressed this point in the Bible. God wants none to suffer for all eternity in hell without Him. So He will do things(see Isaiah 55:8-9 again) that we will think He wouldn't and things that don't make sense to us, but in the long run are best and He knows this.

So one time in church my Pastor was talking about an airplane crash that had occurred days before. We people, don't understand why God allows such things, so we question it. I was questioning this and I know I heard God explain things such as this to me. Lets say that out of the couple hundred people on that plane 90% weren't saved. Those 180 people were constantly on God's mind from their birth and He was trying to get their attention day in and day out to turn to Christ for salvation. Why, because God knows that they aren't going to live forever and at their death if they have not accepted Christ, HELL(with all it's torment) would be their eternal destination. These 180 still, up to this day would not see God in the Joys and sorrows of life and turn to Him. So what's God to do, give up? He desperately wants them to escape hell and live with Him forever. He does probably one of the hardest things for Him to do, He lets them get on a plane, that He knows in 20 minutes will crash. Before the plane crashes, they will experience a few agonizing moments of anxiety and crying and and the knowledge that death is coming for them and then physical pain as the plane crashes and they are killed. But what will some of them also experience during these few minutes. Some of them will finally cry out to God for help and salvation and finally come to Him. And finally hell as their eternal everlasting destination has been averted. Yes, they will still die in the crash but eternity with God will overshadow it all.

What about those who still don't cry out to God and do enter hell. On the day of judgement they will stand before God and as they look at Him thay will be without excuse. They will not be able to say to God, "If you'd only done something God to get my attention then I would have believed". God's response could be, "I did do something I placed you in seat 29a right next to 29b, and you heard that person in 29b, who was in the same situation as you, cry out to Jesus for forgiveness and yet you didn't come to me. You chose not to hear them. You chose to believe that such a thing was foolishness. You also heard the 2 people right behind you as one of them told the other about Christ and yet you still refused to believe."

Why do we as parents let the painful vaccinations take place, because future painful problems will be stopped. Why would God allow a plane crash, because He KNOWS that this dreadful action will be the "shot" that finally brings some to Him.

God's #1 priority for each of us right now is not how comfortable we can be. His #1 priority for each of us is our salvation, so that 70 years here can lead to EVERLASTING ETERNITY WITH HIM and not a future eternity of painful seperation from Him.

The airplane story could be applied to anything, 9/11 and the WTC, cancer anything. So to say that God will not allow pain is not at all Biblical. That husband who was taken in the rapture along with the kids will arrive in heaven in the blink of an eye and will see Jesus. The Bible tells us that we will know things in heaven previously unknown. Would that husband wish this seperation in the rapture, of course not, his wife will be stunned and hurting. But he wants his wife with him for all eternity, so if this "painful shot" is what finally causes her to come to Christ, he will then see what God sees and understand what God understands. And he will rejoice that she has escaped hell!

A-men dbrandt!!

---

ann... I dont think I read your last post right. But if agreeing is smugness..then so be it.

you need to look into the following.

The earth is roughly 6000 years old

Hell lasts forever. You do not get burned clean and then goto heaven with the pious. You are confusing the testing by fire of works of believers with hell.

The tribulation is the last 7 years before Christ returns and the AC rules for the first 3.5 and then satan himself will rule through the ac for the last 3.5

You seem to have some of the teachings of unitarian doctrine. Beware ...its a dead end road of thats what it is.

Thanks, dB-

That was beautifully said. I wish I could have somehow gotten through to my father and grandfather before they passed away- both are gone now; God never said that it would be easy or that we wouldn't suffer, only that He would be with us in our times of trial and pain. So, people reject God when they need Him the most.

Yes, when the rapture occurs there will be a lot of stunned and hurting people left behind; some of them will realize that all they heard before was true, after all, and repent and accept God's offer of salvation. I am afraid that most will not; their hearts have already become too hardened to the truth. It is very sad and I know God weeps over it.

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker

Originally posted by lightseeker
Thanks, dB-


Yes, when the rapture occurs there will be a lot of stunned and hurting people left behind; some of them will realize that all they heard before was true, after all, and repent and accept God's offer of salvation. I am afraid that most will not; their hearts have already become too hardened to the truth. It is very sad and I know God weeps over it.

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker

One of the interesting things I thought of, or I should say God revealed, when reading Revelation. The 24 elders I believe represent the raptured church in heaven. 24 is a specific number, a set amount. When you read chapter 7 about the great multitude which no man could number which comes out of the tribulation, they are not a specific number.

You know what I think that means, I think that means that that number is still alive and growing and will be even after we have been taken to heaven before the tribulation. I believe that means it is a still undertermined number that is based upon how well we christians spread the Gospel and also the yet uncompleted workings that God will have take place in the future. I think that it is a verse filled with hope. While God knows exactly how many it is, He tells us that no "man" could number them. God is trying to relate to us that all of our work for Him should be the best it could possibly be because people's lives are at stake and there is hope for them.

As an example. If we have a Bible we use and jot notes in it on the actual pages so they can't get lost, when we are taken we will not need to have that Bible in heaven because we will be with the living Bible Himself, Jesus. So that will be left behind. As people come looking for us in our home or someone else buys our home, that Bible can get to someone who will use it and study from it. They will see the tattered pages and all the notes and say to themself, "This guy or girl took Jesus as real and serious stuff, maybe I should too."

I believe the great multitude of chapter 7 is written exactly like God wanted and with words that mean something.

Originally posted by jake1997
ann... I dont think I read your last post right. But if agreeing is smugness..then so be it.

No smugness is smugness. Also called vanity and pride. Look it up in your dictionary of choice.
Mine says:
smug; adj
Exhibiting or feeling great or offensive satisfaction with oneself or with one's situation; self-righteously complacent:

I don't think that's counted as one of the blessings in the beautitudes. It's basically the opposite of humble.

you need to look into the following.
The earth is roughly 6000 years old

Hell lasts forever. You do not get burned clean and then goto heaven with the pious. You are confusing the testing by fire of works of believers with hell.

The tribulation is the last 7 years before Christ returns and the AC rules for the first 3.5 and then satan himself will rule through the ac for the last 3.5

I have looked into it--all of it. First of all, I found absolutely no trace of any support for these false ideas born of religion.

But what is really there is amazing!!! Way better and more beautiful than what the suits preach every Sunday--they can't see, how can they show you what is there?

You seem to have some of the teachings of unitarian doctrine. Beware ...its a dead end road of thats what it is.

Hmm... I don't know. I'll ask the Holy Spirit if this is 'unitarian doctrine' and let you know what I find out.

Originally posted by queenannie38
But what is really there is amazing!!! Way better and more beautiful than what the suits preach every Sunday--they can't see, how can they show you what is there?

You probably didn't mean it this way, but it comes across that you are saying there are no honest, truthtelling, God fearing preachers left. That is simply not the case. There are many wolves in sheeps clothing who don't know Christ, but there are many men and women who love Christ and desire to truly tell others about Him. People who desire to attend a church may have to search for awhile, but a good one can be found.

[edit on 28-7-2005 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by dbrandt

You probably didn't mean it this way, but it comes across that you are saying there are no honest, truthtelling, God fearing preachers left.

You're right--I didn't mean it that way. I would have said just that if I had.

But what I said was 'they don't see.' As in 'the blind leading the blind.' The blind leaders are not lying, nor are they necessarily without reverence for God. Does that mean the pits aren't there--or does it provide a way to avoid that pit?

Being honest in one's dealings with others doesn't automatically mean truth is searched for. And being 'God fearing' doesn't automatically mean 'trusting in God.'

I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
(Psalms 32:8)

Originally posted by dbrandt



I have read the 2 verses before that you mentioned, and there is one of 2 ways you can go on those verses.
1. When we meet God face to face there will be no more crying.
or
2. If God wipes away our tears, then there must be tears shed that He needs to wipe away.

Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
(Isaiah 51:11)

I don't think there is to be any kind of sadness or misery then--there is only light and no darkness, and darkness is misery.

As far as Elijah leaving behind family members, I'm sure he did. They might have been cousins or nephews but he probably had family.
I'm curious as to your nonresponse to Enoch's disappearance. He clearly had at least had one son whom he left behind, this did not prevent God from taking Enoch. Also people lose loved ones to death all the time. This creates a loss and void in people's lives so I simply do not see the point of God not removing us because we would have to leave others that we love behind and have pain arise. That happens all the time.

Of course death is a vital part of this life--but you're talking normal everyday events in every human life. I'm talking of the things purported to be ahead, during the '7 year tribulation.' It's supposedly a time so bad we can't even imagine--and instead of dying because we can't help it (and being unknowing) those who are chosen for 'rapture' must leave behind those they dearly love to an existence they themselves are getting to escape.

There's a whole different scenario in that. It's one person receiving the mercy of God while not worrying about being merciful to both loved ones and strangers.

Say that rapture time comes, and you're being lifted up up and away by an angel, and suddenly you can't bear to think about living your ______(fill in the blank) all alone in the horrible hell on earth erupting even as you ascend away from it. So you say to the angel 'I can't bear it--I can't bear to leave so-and-so.'

What is the reply of the LORD going to be, given through the mouth of your transporting angel?

'Naah, don't give it another thought! Why are you concerned anyway? This is what they deserve, and I warned them.'

Or will He say, 'trust me, this hurts me worse than it hurts them or you.'

????

From what I have studied and read, after the rapture The Holy Spirit will revert to how He operated in the OT. He will still be at work saving people but operating a little differently.

Wait--wasn't it Christ who is the savior? And didn't He die once and for all to save all men?

So the Bible clearly tells us that salvation will come to millions possibly billions after the rapture.

The bible says nothing clearly about the rapture, but even more than that--does it actually say that we must do something to be saved? And so that those who have not yet done this are not saved?

Apply this Biblically and spiritually now. The Bible clearly tells us that those who accept Christ will enter heaven and escape eternity in hell. Those who reject Christ will spend eternity in hell.

Where do you find that?!?!


Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Acts 17:31)

Is Paul speaking of assurance of hell fire ? Did God do all this just to condemn some and save others?

Which hell are you speaking of, anyway, sheol/hades or gehenna/valley of Himmon?

Each person will spend a relatively short amount of time(70 or 80 years) here on earth before they physically die and enter eternity(in one of 2 places, heaven with God, or hell without Him), then each persons eternal existance will last forever and ever and ever and ever and so on and so on and will never stop, ever.

But the wages of sin are death.

God knows this, and has stressed this point in the Bible. God wants none to suffer for all eternity in hell without Him. So He will do things(see Isaiah 55:8-9 again) that we will think He wouldn't and things that don't make sense to us, but in the long run are best and He knows this.

Of course He knows this! He knows everything! Everything. He is in charge of everything. Do you think He'd create us just to kill us/torture us? Or rather, some of us?

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
(Romans 8:18-23)

So one time in church my Pastor was talking about an airplane crash that had occurred days before. We people, don't understand why God allows such things, so we question it.

Why God allows death? Death is a part of this life---it's not something He allows, it is something He actually governs! God governs all operations of all kinds.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Matthew 10:28)

God's #1 priority for each of us right now is not how comfortable we can be. His #1 priority for each of us is our salvation, so that 70 years here can lead to EVERLASTING ETERNITY WITH HIM and not a future eternity of painful seperation from Him.

I agree that is His priority--but hasn't it already been taken care of--once and for all? 'It is finished?'


These things may seem to make sense, after a fashion--but to see it that way, you have to ignore an awful lot of what the bible says, straightout.

Originally posted by queenannie38
The bible says nothing clearly about the rapture, but even more than that--does it actually say that we must do something to be saved? And so that those who have not yet done this are not saved?

Yes it does. Many many times and these are the ones I've found. There are probably ones I have yet to find.
there's more than one verse that tells of the rapture and that it is before the tribulation.

2 Thessalonians ch. 2
Luke 21:36
Acts 14:14-17
Matthew 16:18 (the rock is that Christ is the savior)
Matthew 24:22, 24, 42, 44
Mark 13:20
Luke 21:28
Revelation 3:10

Colossians 3:12 & Revelation 1:5-6, 3:8, 4:1, 4:4, 5:8-10(all in conjunction together)
Romans 5:9
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
1 Thessalonians 1:6-10
1 Thessalonians 5:4,9 -11
Titus 2:13
Jude vs. 14
Isaiah 57:1
Isaiah 26:20-21


Take your Strong's and look up escape from Luke 21:36 and residue from Acts 14:14-17.

You claim that a spirit is teaching you...and the things you say are different then what is in the bible.
This should set off alarm bells.

I also couldnt help notice that your holy spirit leads you to not like people in suits.

Im curious...

In your words, what must a person do to be saved, and what, if anything, must be done to maintain salvation.

Originally posted by queenannie38

God's #1 priority for each of us right now is not how comfortable we can be. His #1 priority for each of us is our salvation, so that 70 years here can lead to EVERLASTING ETERNITY WITH HIM and not a future eternity of painful seperation from Him.

I agree that is His priority--but hasn't it already been taken care of--once and for all? 'It is finished?'


These things may seem to make sense, after a fashion--but to see it that way, you have to ignore an awful lot of what the bible says, straightout.

What am I ignoring from the Bible. I would like to know.

Yes, Christ has received in Himself the punishment of all sin for all time. Each person must now choose, on purpose, as an act of their free will, to receive the forgiveness Christ has already accomplished on the cross. When this conscience decision is made, and someone asks to receive the cleansing away of their sin through Jesus Christ and what He's done and believe it through faith, that is when salvation comes.

Originally posted by jake1997
You claim that a spirit is teaching you...and the things you say are different then what is in the bible.

No, what I say are different from what you are taught the bible says. I only study the bible, but you let others guide you. These are the 'suits'. Why do you need them? Is Christ inadequate as a Priest and is the Holy Spirit lacking as a tutor and comforter? What's unbiblical about that? It's straight out of the New Testament. Do you believe what Christ said?

This should set off alarm bells.

It sure does--I hear them ringing, but obviously you don't.

I also couldnt help notice that your holy spirit leads you to not like people in suits.

Who said I don't like them? Liking someone is not what determines whether I trust them or not. I love all people, even those that have done me harm. But that doesn't mean I'm gullible or blindly trusting. Faith is not trusting in men, it's following God at all costs.

In your words, what must a person do to be saved, and what, if anything, must be done to maintain salvation.

Well, as far as being 'redeemed' saved--all men were saved by the Ultimate Sacrifice. But I know what you are asking, the saving of the soul from death--right?

At any rate, the requirements are
1. Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God
2. Confess this belief and confess/repent of sins
3. and be baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit for the remission of sins.

That's all that is 'required'. But the proof comes afterward, in the fruits of the Spirit, manifested by obedience to God and love and charity toward all men. Faith without works is evidence the faith is dead. But faith that is alive is a source of light and love in the name of our Savior.

And yes, I've done all these things. I was baptized at 8 years old and didn't ever turn my back on that decision. God does as He says and so I've kept to my end of the bargain, because He knows my heart and strenghtens me to be able to do so. Of myself I can do nothing. But with God all things are possible.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by queenannie38

God's #1 priority for each of us right now is not how comfortable we can be. His #1 priority for each of us is our salvation, so that 70 years here can lead to EVERLASTING ETERNITY WITH HIM and not a future eternity of painful seperation from Him.

I agree that is His priority--but hasn't it already been taken care of--once and for all? 'It is finished?'


These things may seem to make sense, after a fashion--but to see it that way, you have to ignore an awful lot of what the bible says, straightout.

What am I ignoring from the Bible. I would like to know.

You said separation from God. That's a contradiction of what Paul said:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:28-39)

Christ said that God 'drags' us to Him--we cannot come of our own selves:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
(John 6:44-46)

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This says that all men will be 'dragged' to Christ, and hence, to life.

Yes, Christ has received in Himself the punishment of all sin for all time.

Then how can punishment still be something possible for us, individually? By punishment, I don't mean judgment, but 'death' which are the wages of sin which we have been freed of.

Each person must now choose, on purpose, as an act of their free will, to receive the forgiveness Christ has already accomplished on the cross. When this conscience decision is made, and someone asks to receive the cleansing away of their sin through Jesus Christ and what He's done and believe it through faith, that is when salvation comes.

So there is indeed something required of us to be saved? That is non scriptural, too.

Those verses do not make it clear--can you clarify, maybe?

I see no where that some are taken, the rest left til later. Does Christ day this?

[edit on 7/29/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by queenannie38Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.
(Isaiah 51:11)

don't think there is to be any kind of sadness or misery then--there is only light and no darkness, and darkness is misery.

Please, look at the entire verse, Annie, "...they shall obtain gladness and joy..." "...sorrow and mourning shall flee away." You first must need something to be obtained; sorrow and mourning must exist currently for it to "flee away". Also, it's apparent that Isiaiah is referring here to the Millennial reign of Christ on earth.

As far as Elijah leaving behind family members, I'm sure he did. They might have been cousins or nephews but he probably had family.
I'm curious as to your nonresponse to Enoch's disappearance. He clearly had at least had one son whom he left behind, this did not prevent God from taking Enoch. Also people lose loved ones to death all the time...

There's a whole different scenario in that. It's one person receiving the mercy of God while not worrying about being merciful to both loved ones and strangers.

Say that rapture time comes, and you're being lifted up up and away by an angel, and suddenly you can't bear to think about living your ______(fill in the blank) all alone in the horrible hell on earth erupting even as you ascend away from it. So you say to the angel 'I can't bear it--I can't bear to leave so-and-so.'

What is the reply of the LORD going to be, given through the mouth of your transporting angel?

'Naah, don't give it another thought! Why are you concerned anyway? This is what they deserve, and I warned them.'

or will He say, 'trust me, this hurts me worse than it hurts them or you.'????

He will say, "trust me, this hurts me worse than it hurts them or you."

From what I have studied and read, after the rapture The Holy Spirit will revert to how He operated in the OT. He will still be at work saving people but operating a little differently.

Wait--wasn't it Christ who is the savior? And didn't He die once and for all to save all men?

So, what did you think.? That because Christ died on the Cross for all men that that was all that was required.? Nothing on the part of the sinner.? Salvation must be accepted; it must be apprehended. Christ did to put an end to the automatic penalty of spiritual death of the sinner; He did not die so that everyone would spontaneously become free from sin, which is obviously not the case. Sin still exists and will continue to exist until Satan is finally and completely destroyed after the end of the Millennial reign of Christ; but because of Christ's Death and resurrection, we have a remedy for sin and death: the personal and public acceptance of Jesus Christ as God's Son and Savior. There is no other way, period.

The bible says nothing clearly about the rapture, but even more than that--does it actually say that we must do something to be saved? And so that those who have not yet done this are not saved?

1 Thess 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice if the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Apply this Biblically and spiritually now. The Bible clearly tells us that those who accept Christ will enter heaven and escape eternity in hell. Those who reject Christ will spend eternity in hell.

Where do you find that?!?!

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye ccursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the crighteous into life eternal
Matthew 25:41-46

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Acts 17:31)

Is Paul speaking of assurance of hell fire ? Did God do all this just to condemn some and save others?

Yes.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47)

"Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias ( Isaiah) prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" (Matthew 15:7-9).

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46).

Obviously from the few scriptures which I noted above, (there are probably at least a hundred more like them), Christ died for all men, but not all men will receive and believe in Him, or follow His commandments and even some who truly believe themselves saved will find they were wrong. This is serious stuff! God is calling us to be accountable for the Grace and mercy He has shown us; It is not sufficent to believe in Jesus; the bible says the devil and his demons believe, and tremble.

Which hell are you speaking of, anyway, sheol/hades or gehenna/valley of Himmon?

Hell, the eternal home of those who deny Christ and His salvation offer.

But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 8:12

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power. 2 Thess 1:9

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. Matt 5:22

"For everyone will be salted with fire. Mark 9:49

"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
quote]Of course He knows this! He knows everything! Everything. He is in charge of everything. Do you think He'd create us just to kill us/torture us? Or rather, some of us?

Yes. It is obvious from scripture that the penalty of sin is death and the free gift of life is only available through Jesus Christ.

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. Matthew 7:13-14

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The operative sentence here is the last, "...but ourselves, also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit .."

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of those who slept. For since by man came death, by Man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive; but every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. (Romans 8:18-23)

All who are Christ's (who belong to Him) shall be made alive at His coming.
Are all Christ's.? Obviously not; some outright reject and denounce Him. Will God, then, violate the free will he has given them to decide their own eternal fate.? As Paul would have sai, "May it never be!" Only thos who Love Him and confess Him as Savior will be saved. He said it Himself, time after time. Look it up.

Why God allows death? Death is a part of this life---it's not something He allows, it is something He actually governs! God governs all operations of all kinds.

Does God govern when you are going to get up in the morning? What you are going to eat for dinner? whether you are going to answer the telephone when it rings? Yes, God is omniscient, He knows when we all will die and if we will get up on time or answer the phone, but He doesn't govern it. If God governed all operations, including death, then He would be responsibl for people who willingly or recklessly take their own lives; that would violate His own character, which He will not do.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Matthew 10:28)

God of course, The Creator, Who is the only one with that power.

God's #1 priority for each of us right now is not how comfortable we can be. His #1 priority for each of us is our salvation, so that 70 years here can lead to EVERLASTING ETERNITY WITH HIM and not a future eternity of painful seperation from Him.

I agree that is His priority--but hasn't it already been taken care of--once and for all? 'It is finished?'

Only if you accept that offer personally and completely surrender your life to Him as your Lord and Savior. Only then.

These things may seem to make sense, after a fashion--but to see it that way, you have to ignore an awful lot of what the bible says, straightout.

It seems you may have missed afew things in your bible study. That's o.k.,
at least you are sincerely looking for the truth. Keep searching and keep asking the Holy Spirit to open your eyes and give you wisdom to understand what He is saying to you in the Word. I have been reading and studying the Bible for over thirty-five years, and the Lord is revealing new insights and truths about His word that I never considered before.

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth 2 Tim 2:15

Grace & Peace,

Lightseeker

Originally posted by lightseeker

Please, look at the entire verse, Annie, "...they shall obtain gladness and joy..." "...sorrow and mourning shall flee away." You first must need something to be obtained; sorrow and mourning must exist currently for it to "flee away".

Does it not exist in your life as it does mine? The darkness is here, and the light is after this age is over. The points you make are valid--and they are exactly what I was trying to point out. Now we have misery. Later it is gone--we won't live in the darkness anymore.

Also, it's apparent that Isiaiah is referring here to the Millennial reign of Christ on earth.

How do you figure? It says that Israel will return to the LORD and dwell in Zion. It's 'obvious' because you believe it to be.

He will say, "trust me, this hurts me worse than it hurts them or you."

Right there, then, are 3 people hurt by this rapture thing. Is Christ returning for His redeemed and their inheritance--in order to make it come about by hurting us and the ones we love?

Is it not going to pain your heart--the scenario I presented? Are you going to go up to your heavenly reward with a glad heart and scant regard for anyone else's suffering?

Is God going to reward you with mercy even as you are without mercy for others?

From what I have studied and read, after the rapture The Holy Spirit will revert to how He operated in the OT. He will still be at work saving people but operating a little differently.

So, what did you think.? That because Christ died on the Cross for all men that that was all that was required.?

That's not my point--you say that the Holy Spirit will be saving people in the future. How can that be? Did not Christ fulfill the whole law and offer the ultimate and perfect sacrifice. Did not Christ already do the whole job of salvation? For everyone?
(Luke 3:6 )
(Acts 4:12)

Sin still exists and will continue to exist until Satan is finally and completely destroyed after the end of the Millennial reign of Christ;

Sin reigns until death. Romans 5:21.

1 Thess 4:16-17 is not proof—maybe according to various English versions—but it is definitely not proof according to the original Greek—of a ‘rapture’ according to the modern teachings.

Those who reject Christ will spend eternity in hell.

Those who reject Christ will be judged.

Then it seems it will be either ‘perpetual destruction (ruin, death)’ or salting with fire, trying by fire—but no eternal fire. The fire consumes, and so it tries a man’s works but saves the man. 1 Corinthians 3:15.

It is not sufficent to believe in Jesus

You're right--it's not even necessary for His Work--Jesus doesn’t need our belief in order to work a miracle of salvation. He already did this—what more could we add to that?

...My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. ...

Which hell are you speaking of, anyway, sheol/hades or gehenna/valley of Himmon?

Hell, the eternal home of those who deny Christ and His salvation offer.

First of all, we are not being ‘offered’ anything—the offering was made to God, just once. (Hebrews 9:28)

Second, Matt 8:12 mentions 'darkness' skotos: shadiness, obscurity, darkness

2 Thess 1:9 is olethros: death, destruction, ruin

Matt 5:22 is gehenna

3 different concepts here--which do you mean?

What do you get from Mark 9:49 and 50? Salt is life and is essential. This seems to be a place for renewal--where those who have lost their salt are salted.

Do you think He'd create us just to kill us/torture us? Or rather, some of us?

Yes. It is obvious from scripture that the penalty of sin is death and the free gift of life is only available through Jesus Christ.

Who died to save all men—and who will have all men to be saved.
(1 Timothy 2:4-6)

Does God govern when you are going to get up in the morning? What you are going to eat for dinner? whether you are going to answer the telephone when it rings?

He governs me and He governs you. I realize this—do you?

Yes, God is omniscient, He knows when we all will die and if we will get up on time or answer the phone, but He doesn't govern it. If God governed all operations, including death, then He would be responsibl for people who willingly or recklessly take their own lives; that would violate His own character, which He will not do.

Omniscient (all seeing) and omnipotent (all powerful). He never sleeps. God does govern everything. If not Him—then who?

For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
(Psalms 22:28)

God is responsible. He governs His creation. He does as He pleases. He punished Nebuchadnezzar for not knowing this:

While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
(Daniel 4:31-32)

I agree that is His priority--but hasn't it already been taken care of--once and for all? 'It is finished?'

Only if you accept that offer personally and completely surrender your life to Him as your Lord and Savior. Only then.

So what He accomplished on the cross is dependent somehow on us? Is He dependent upon us for His success?

the Lord is revealing new insights and truths about His word that I never considered before.

Could you share one of these?

Originally posted by queenannie38
That's not my point--you say that the Holy Spirit will be saving people in the future. How can that be? Did not Christ fulfill the whole law and offer the ultimate and perfect sacrifice. Did not Christ already do the whole job of salvation? For everyone?
(Luke 3:6 )
(Acts 4:12)

Jesus sacrifice in our place removes our sin. Faith in that fact saves us. The Holy Spirit convicts a person of their need for Christ.

Originally posted by queenannie38

He will say, "trust me, this hurts me worse than it hurts them or you."

Right there, then, are 3 people hurt by this rapture thing. Is Christ returning for His redeemed and their inheritance--in order to make it come about by hurting us and the ones we love?

Is it not going to pain your heart--the scenario I presented? Are you going to go up to your heavenly reward with a glad heart and scant regard for anyone else's suffering?

Is God going to reward you with mercy even as you are without mercy for others?

Do you not believe that God Grieves for those who are left behind; do you suppose that since they are not taken with those who are raptured , that God turns a blind eye to them and has no pity? Of course He has pity and love for even those who refuse Him. He loves all men and women and children equally, but, and this is what I think you are not conidering, He is a supremely "Just" and "Righteous" God and can not abide sin and will not violate the free will of anyone. Also, if the Christ's work on the cross was sufficient to save everybody and ensure eternal life with God, why did He need to die at all? If God wanted to pardon all of mankind from sin, don't you think He is powerful enough to just do it Himself, without having to see His only begotten Son humiliated, cursed and crucified?

From what I have studied and read, after the rapture The Holy Spirit will revert to how He operated in the OT. He will still be at work saving people but operating a little differently.

So, what did you think.? That because Christ died on the Cross for all men that that was all that was required.?

That's not my point--you say that the Holy Spirit will be saving people in the future. How can that be? Did not Christ fulfill the whole law and offer the ultimate and perfect sacrifice. Did not Christ already do the whole job of salvation? For everyone?
(Luke 3:6 )
(Acts 4:12)

Well, that was not my post you are referring to, although, I agree with it.
Jesus Christ paid the penalty of sin once and for all,a price that you and I could never pay. The Holy Spirit was given to mankind, or more correctly to "believers" after Christ's resurrection and asension; If Christ's death and resurrection was sufficient to "save" all of mankind, then, why did He not take everyone with Him when He asended to Heaven. Why send the Holy Spirit to a world that had already been redeemed.? It was because the whole world had not been redeemed and the Holy Spirit was needed to instruct and guide unto all truth, including the truth about sin and death.
Another question for you; if God had received our ransom for sin at the time of the resurrection, why wait millennnia to perfect and sanctify His Creation( Earth, death, peoples hearts)? Why do men still sin? Why are we not perfect like Jesus.?

Sin still exists and will continue to exist until Satan is finally and completely destroyed after the end of the Millennial reign of Christ;

Sin reigns until death. Romans 5:21.

1 Thess 4:16-17 is not proof—maybe according to various English versions—but it is definitely not proof according to the original Greek—of a ‘rapture’ according to the modern teachings.

Then, explain your understanding of Matther 24.

Those who reject Christ will spend eternity in hell.

Those who reject Christ will be judged.

Then it seems it will be either ‘perpetual destruction (ruin, death)’ or salting with fire, trying by fire—but no eternal fire. The fire consumes, and so it tries a man’s works but saves the man. 1 Corinthians 3:15.

‘For this reason I have said to you, that nobody can come to me unless it has been granted him from the Father.’ John 6:65

Mark 9.43-48 .."And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.."

2 Thessalonians 1.6-9 "Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

Matthew 25.46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

It is not sufficent to believe in Jesus

You're right--it's not even necessary for His Work--Jesus doesn’t need our belief in order to work a miracle of salvation. He already did this—what more could we add to that?

...My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. ...

You took that segment of my quote out of context; what I said is it is not sufficient to just believe in Jesus because Satan and his demon also believe, and tremble. Of course, the implication is that it is not sufficient to believe in His existence or that He was an actual person; salvation only comes by believing in Him as the One who delivered you from sin and Whom you are trusting for your deliverence from eternal death in hell.
Billions of people in this world do not believe in Jesus, millions and million (at least) reject Him utterly as having any place in their lives; many would spit on Him if they could. Are they to be among the "Elect"of God on the day He comes back because He died for them to.? This does not compute.
God will not have those who despise Him in the Kingdom and it would be unfair to those who do not want to be there in the first place.

Which hell are you speaking of, anyway, sheol/hades or gehenna/valley of Himmon?

Hell, the eternal home of those who deny Christ and His salvation offer.

First of all, we are not being ‘offered’ anything—the offering was made to God, just once. (Hebrews 9:28)

Second, Matt 8:12 mentions 'darkness' skotos: shadiness, obscurity, darkness

2 Thess 1:9 is olethros: death, destruction, ruin

Matt 5:22 is gehenna

3 different concepts here--which do you mean?

They are all aspects of the same thing.

Do you think He'd create us just to kill us/torture us? Or rather, some of us?

Yes. It is obvious from scripture that the penalty of sin is death and the free gift of life is only available through Jesus Christ.

Who died to save all men—and who will have all men to be saved.
(1 Timothy 2:4-6)

"The Gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation to everyone that BELIEVETH" (Romans 1:16).

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel; he that BELIEVETH and is BAPTISED shall be SAVED" (Mark 16:16).

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (John 11:25).

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" -- Prov. 14:12.

Does God govern when you are going to get up in the morning? What you are going to eat for dinner? whether you are going to answer the telephone when it rings?

He governs me and He governs you. I realize this—do you?

God does not make my decisions for me, that's what free will is all about.
God does not "govern" anyone "person" directly yet and He won't and indeed can not because of the sin that is still in the world. He governs nature and the course of the stars and universe; He answers prayers and intervenes in the lives of His own and protects them and watches over them like the Heavenly Father He is. If you have come to understand that somehow God is in control of your own actions so that you no longer have to account for them, then, you are mislead.

Yes, God is omniscient, He knows when we all will die and if we will get up on time or answer the phone, but He doesn't govern it. If God governed all operations, including death, then He would be responsibl for people who willingly or recklessly take their own lives; that would violate His own character, which He will not do.

Omniscient (all seeing) and omnipotent (all powerful). He never sleeps. God does govern everything. If not Him—then who?

For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
(Psalms 22:28)

God is responsible. He governs His creation. He does as He pleases. He punished Nebuchadnezzar for not knowing this:

While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
(Daniel 4:31-32)

God is God; He created everything and He is at work in the world, through the Holy Spirit. drawing men unto Himself. Remember, that when Jesus came, we were given a new Testament or covenant that suoercedes the Old. Not that it abolished the law but that it provided away for the law to be enforced justly.

[[quoteI agree that is His priority--but hasn't it already been taken care of--once and for all? 'It is finished?'

Only if you accept that offer personally and completely surrender your life to Him as your Lord and Savior. Only then.

So what He accomplished on the cross is dependent somehow on us?

Now, you're getting it.

Is He dependent upon us for His success?

No we are dependent upon Him for ours, for our deliverancce from the wrath of God.

the Lord is revealing new insights and truths about His word that I never considered before.

Could you share one of these?

Sure, probably the biggest new insight I've gained is just how active Jesus Christ was in Old testament prophecy and history. I always have known since shortly after becoming a Christian, that Jesus' birth, death and resurrection were prophesied inthe Old Testament; but hadn't dug far enough into the Old Testament itself to see that Jesus, or The Son was showing up in Old testament times and adding to the overall thread of redemption found there.

For instance, I have come to believe that the fourth man in the furnace with Shadrach. Meshach and Abednego, was actually Christ. Also, I hadn't really noticed before how Melchisadek was a "type" if you will of The Redeemer and was probably Christ Himself, pointing to the future and His birth as the Savior of Israel and Chief Priest of the redeemed.

Grace & Peace,

Walter