Is the Rapture even real.

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
Man I got 3 different opinions, one says yes to the rapture, one says no rapture and the other thinks everyone is crazy. That is one more opinion than I thought I would get but hey why not get everyones opinion. I will take some time to look over the information you guys have posted. thanks for posting and i look forward to having some discussions with all 3 of you.

Well, ... I could have given you a forth opinion and explained the verses listed (from the gospels and the writings of the apostles) in light of the historical, linguistic and cultural context of the "authors"; however, you only asked for the "standard" - and one assumes, "Christian" - teaching regarding a pre-Trib rapture.

Rather than inflaming and/or absorbing comments from the Peanut Gallery ... that is, if that's not your cup of tea ... I would recommend that you obtain a copy of "Basic Theology" by Charles C. Ryrie. This book covers pre-, mid- and post-Tribulation rapture doctrines/teachings and includes the verses used to back these view points. It's one of the more helpful books for those interesting in immersing themselves in the plethora of Christian POVs on this and that. It's written for the lay person, yet the scholarship is sound. Hope that helps! Be well.... Peace.... Steven

Is the Rapture even true ?????????????

WOW,, Don't know, it hasn't happen YET..

This is one of those things that you not sure of,, But you'll just hate Yourself if it happen and You were not there, RIGHT....................

Originally posted by jfdarby
Is the Rapture even true ?????????????

WOW,, Don't know, it hasn't happen YET..

This is one of those things that you not sure of,, But you'll just hate Yourself if it happen and You were not there, RIGHT....................

Wow!!! I never thought of it that way before.... Of course, going with that logic I guess I'd better join every sect and religion that espouses an eschatology wherein one needs a "members only" card to survive, eh?

Thats a great idea! We should all join everything....just in case.

I found another verse that agrees that the saints are already with Christ when He returns.

Zechariah 14:5........and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

When Martin Luther left the RCC and began the 'reformation', he did not hesitate to make it clear he believed the Papacy was the antichrist. It was a big deal and bad PR for the Catholic Institution. Joining in the protest were Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, and John Huss, too.

The counter by the RCC was to call for reconciliation and so they met for the Council of Trent in 1545. The 'counter-reformation' teachings approved at the Council of Trent supposedly gave, in theory, tradition of the church and the 'fathers' thereof equal authority to the Bible, under umbrella impunity by declaring it all 'apostolic'. These teachings were primarily authored by three Jesuit priests: Joseph Ribera, Cardinal Bellarmine and Alcasar.

Some time later, in the 1600s, Ribera authored a commentary on the book of Revelation and in his writing, in order to 'relieve' the 'burden' of the church in being labeled antichrist, Ribera invented 'futurism'-- meaning the prophecies of Revelation only apply to the last seven years of mankind’s history. The logic being, since the antichrist isn't arrived yet, it certainly can't be the antichrist.

Classic case of 'diversionary tactics.'

300 years later, John Nelson Darby came along and invented both 'dispensationalism' as a new way to interpret the bible, and expanded on the futurist foundation of Ribera with the rapture theory. Cyrus Scofield carried on Darby's work.


Look these guys and places up--you'd be surprised at how these common beliefs came to be.

Necessity is the mother of invention, don't forget.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I found another verse that agrees that the saints are already with Christ when He returns.

Zechariah 14:5........and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

How does it reconcile with this one?

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
(Psalms 116:15)


This one seems to say the the wicked will leave and the righteous will stay:

For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
(Proverbs 2:21-22)

Here is says that the saints will actually be given over to the wicked one for a specified period of time:

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(Daniel 7:25)

Many of the saints liberated from the grave 2000 years ago!

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(Matthew 27:51-53)

Last--but not least, how does this fit in the bigger picture?

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(Deuteronomy 33:2)

First thing anne

By 300 AD we have people talking about the rapture. Im sure you can find it... I must leave for work soon and dont have time to look it up.
All you are doing is repeating the standard party line by saying its from Darby.

dbrandts verse proves that.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by dbrandt
I found another verse that agrees that the saints are already with Christ when He returns.

Zechariah 14:5........and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

How does it reconcile with this one?

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.
(Psalms 116:15)

We are indeed precious to the Lord, and this verse speaks about saints from Able to the last one to be beheaded in the trib

This one seems to say the the wicked will leave and the righteous will stay:

For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
(Proverbs 2:21-22)

Christs rule in the mil
Heaven
take your pick
You chose for this to apply to only a 7 year part of history. Odd considering that the Lord has determined to get rid of all evil once and for all
[quote

Here is says that the saints will actually be given over to the wicked one for a specified period of time:

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(Daniel 7:25)
During the trib as you can see from the context of the chapter. It will be for 3.5 years

Many of the saints liberated from the grave 2000 years ago!

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
(Matthew 27:51-53)

awesome isnt it!!

Last--but not least, how does this fit in the bigger picture?

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(Deuteronomy 33:2)

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Enoch, who was raptured, gives a clue for the end.
The ark, represtenting Christ, saved Noah. Enoch was taken.

Originally posted by jake1997
First thing anne

By 300 AD we have people talking about the rapture. Im sure you can find it... I must leave for work soon and dont have time to look it up.

And what does that prove? That people were already straying from the truth 300 years after Christ's visitation? We already knew that, and we were warned all along.

All you are doing is repeating the standard party line by saying its from Darby.

I don't worry about repeating anything but the truth. It's sure not from the bible. Have you ever perused Darby's commentary? Before Darby there was no 'rapture'--the people believed they'd be here til New Jerusalem came down from Heaven.

dbrandts verse proves that.

Well, if that's your reasoning, give me a minute--I can find all sorts of 'proven' stuff by singular citation. What should we 'prove?'

This one seems to say the the wicked will leave and the righteous will stay:

For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
(Proverbs 2:21-22)
Christs rule in the mil
Heaven
take your pick

Take my pick?!? No, thanks. I think that's what considered 'leaning on one's own understanding.'

You chose for this to apply to only a 7 year part of history. Odd considering that the Lord has determined to get rid of all evil once and for all

Well--isn't that how we're doing this? If dbrandt can do it, why not me, too?

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
(Daniel 7:25)During the trib as you can see from the context of the chapter. It will be for 3.5 years

I've never seen that rubbish in that chapter. There is no 'missing week' of the 70 weeks--9:26 and 9:27 only refer to one 'he' and that is the messiah. You have two subjects--the Messiah (he) and 'the people of the prince to come.' Any other unique pronoun would have to be 'they'.
When was Messiah 'cut off'?
In the middle of the week.
What did He institute at the last supper?
A new covenant, officialized with His blood--for all men. 'Many'
Why did the sacrifice in the temple become no longer accepted?
Because the ultimate sacrifice had been made.

How can some version of this be in the future? There is no sacrifice any more, ever--none can be ceased.

The whole argument for 70 weeks being only 69 weeks fulfilled is nonsense! God doesn't do something almost all the way and then put it on 'hold.' It's utter nonsense.

Last--but not least, how does this fit in the bigger picture?

And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
(Deuteronomy 33:2)

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Enoch, who was raptured, gives a clue for the end.
The ark, represtenting Christ, saved Noah. Enoch was taken.

I don't follow you. Enoch is one. Ten thousands--where did they come from? Moses died at the end of Deuteronomy--who are these ten thousands? Makes no sense. God makes sense. If we don't see it then there's no need to try to make it fit in what we already understand.

David tells us to 'Wait in the LORD'--this is practical advice for all things.

[edit on 7/27/2005 by queenannie38]

Originally posted by Seapeople

If you don't like reading threads on this topic, then dont. Spare us all. Every time you talk we all become less intelligent. The fact that you are allowed to talk with your insanity is the only flaw of our constitution in the united states. It should read something like, "freedom of speech unless you are a complete idiot". So go crawl under the rock you came from and leave us all alone.

You might want to consider taking your own advice. The title of this board is Faith and Spirituality; not Hate and Belligerence. If you are uncomfortable reading peoples posts about their religious faith and beliefs then, please, do all of us a favor and read something less disagreeable to your disposition. Also, you are violating several of the T&C's with your angry, insulting and hateful diatribes. But then that's probably why you are doing it.

1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Rev 19:1] And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven , saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

[Rev 19:7] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
[Rev 19:8] it was granted her to be clothed with fine linen, bright and pure"--for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
[Rev 19:9] And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are true words of God."

[Rev 19:14] And the armies [ saints ] which were in heaven followed him
upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


[Mat 24:29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[Mat 24:30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[Mat 24:31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect ( saints) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Matthew 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

John 14:1-3 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be



[edit on 7/27/2005 by lightseeker]

Originally posted by queenannie38

I've never seen that rubbish in that chapter. There is no 'missing week' of the 70 weeks--9:26 and 9:27 only refer to one 'he' and that is the messiah. You have two subjects--the Messiah (he) and 'the people of the prince to come.' Any other unique pronoun would have to be 'they'.
When was Messiah 'cut off'?
In the middle of the week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He...is the antichrist. Not the Messiah

So then, where is the Messiah?

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:

69 weeks

7 for the rebuilding, and 62 until Jesus

NOW we can move on to verse 26

Dan 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.


Jesus was cutoff. Killed. Then Rome destroyed the temple and plowed Jerusalem under. Who?
"The people of the prince that shall come" .

Ok..now..the focus is shifted to the people and that prince in that verse.
we go to verse 27

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus makes a covenant for how long?
EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.

There are many more to confirm this.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Originally posted by jake1997

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He...is the antichrist. Not the Messiah

That's the popular opinion.

But it's not even grammatically sensible.

There is no second 'he' mentioned.

In the 'people of the prince to come', the phrase 'of the prince to come' is a descriptor--and adjective phrase/clause! An adjective is not a noun, and therefore no pronouns in this sentence logically apply to it. The only two that are correct are 'he' (Messiah) and 'they' (the people of the prince to come).

Surely your grammatical prowess is much better that you’re letting on. You are a good speller, so that led me to believe you could parse a sentence out to a clear statement.

Jesus makes a covenant for how long?
EVERLASTING COVENANT.

Agreed. But what is that do with this verse? Nothing is said here about the duration of said covenant.

Have you ever actually read the whole chapter 9 of Daniel? Read the first half and see if you don’t understand what you are mistaking for antichrist business. Don’t be led by the blind. Open your own eyes.

Don’t be offended at me—if I didn’t sincerely believe that you love our God just like I do, I wouldn’t be so persistent. Nor would I even bring it up if I were not 100% certain—to anyone. And so I pray that you see for yourself.



[edit on 7/27/2005 by queenannie38]

at this point, I wouldnt worry about trying to explain it to each other then.
Either you will see me grinning on the way up...or I will be thinking about you as the seals break open. Either way..we will agree at that point

I'm not concerned as to whether we agree with each other--that's meaningless.

What matters is that we both agree with God.

Right now I know you're agreeing with theology school graduates.

jk

don't get ruffled. I'm not.

Originally posted by jake1997
....
Either you will see me grinning on the way up...or I will be thinking about you as the seals break open. Either way..we will agree at that point

"The smug shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Reality, Chapter 12, Verse 2

Semantics aside, someone stated its in the perception (pre-rapture anyway) and thats true.
It is also true that reality is a two way street. If someone, lets say Al Qaeda for example, were to say they fight us because we back Israel, then that is their reality. We say we fight Al Qaeda because they attacked us which is true, thats our reality and also the perceptions of the parties involved.
However, (I just love that word :hail The Bible lays out a timetable in the Book of Revelations (not the calendar type, but a chronology of events) and since it (The Bible)was written in such a way as to be analogous or representative, truth gets denied since it does come across in an obtuse way.
Rapture isn't a word in the Bible and yet it can be defined by events from the Bible... perceived from it. Perception is all in the viewpoint of the viewer and as such many interpretations are derived from it.
It's like a Ezekials wheel. UFO wasn't a term in use then and yet it has all the indications of being one. If you didn't know what a UFO was then you'd describe it as you perceived it, a burning wheel.
The Rapture is something none of us has experienced in any time yet in history so as an unknown entity it is impossible to state it exists since it hasn't happened and still, it is expected to happen.
We already know about it (have been led to this conclusion through the prophetic words of the Bible)and it lends credence but some won't believe until it happens which will be too late for them.
The rapture is for believers exclusively. Having said that, to a Christian the rapture is very real, to a non-believer it doesn't exist. It costs nothing to believe, but to deny God and not accept the salvation Christ died for will cost you big time. Unless you don't believe in which case its a wait and see and that is too late.
If it could be explained as one of the seven churches as being luke warm and was spit out, sitting on that fence won't get you into God's Kingdom... but it will get you someplace. Where you want to be is your God given free-will.
The rapture is real to God and that's all that matters. Now I know this leads to is God real and I know he is to me. I pray he becomes real to you too.

I made some points in another thread about this--but it was slightly off-topic (although I doubt that is the reason for the lack of response I got so far )

These are some aspects of the 'rapture' that are uncharacteristic of God--things that contradict the very message of the gospel:

The idea of loved ones, friends and family, being 'left behind' with no solace, no comfort, and no source of truth--in either 3 1/2 or 7 years full of antichrist-induced worldwide concentration camp conditions (or something equally horrific) seems like a ironic end to the goal of 'loving our neighbor as ourselves.'

God has promised no sorrow, no tears any more after the day we are collected--yet we are to 'pass from death to life' at that time, too. How are we supposed to live 'happily ever after', even for the blink of an eye that 7 years would be, with God, knowing anyone (not just our own loved ones) is suffering the way it is told the world will suffer under the antichrist's rule following the rapture?

We are to love everyone just as Christ loves us--even our vilest, cruelest, enemies and oppressors we are to love. To be worthy of 'rapture', surely that is a requirement. So how would anyone qualify and be able to bear it as well?

God gives mercy to a few, who have managed somehow to do what others couldn't--whatever it may be--but in turn, those He has mercy on must somehow have sufficient lack of mercy in themselves toward their families to not mind leaving them amidst the hell-on-earth which they are being allowed to escape? How does that fit in with

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

As Abraham said to the LORD: 'Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?'

Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

If none of us can boast, then how can any of us be singled out and the rest 'left behind?'

Originally posted by ShadowHasNoSource

Originally posted by jake1997
....
Either you will see me grinning on the way up...or I will be thinking about you as the seals break open. Either way..we will agree at that point

"The smug shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Reality, Chapter 12, Verse 2

If you had read that with the love of God in your heart, you would not have seen smugness. The smugness existed only in your heart

Originally posted by queenannie38
These are some aspects of the 'rapture' that are uncharacteristic of God--things that contradict the very message of the gospel:

The idea of loved ones, friends and family, being 'left behind' with no solace, no comfort, and no source of truth--in either 3 1/2 or 7 years
God has promised no sorrow, no tears any more after the day we are collected

To say that the rapture would be uncharacteristic of God is not true. How does it contradict the Gospel? God has already raptured people, Enoch and Elijah, We know Enoch had family left behind, yet God still took Him. We are told people looked for Him.

We are going to be taken to be with God because we have accepted Christ as Savior and Lord. That is the requirement for this, the rapture is a reward for this.

There will be people who place there trust in Jesus after the rapture and will enter eternity living with God for forever.

Christians are ambassadors for Christ, hopefully friends and family and acquaintances know this. When christians are removed from the earth, we will be missed by some like Enoch was. We will be looked for and talked about. As we are talked about by families, friends and strangers a common denominator will time after time come up in these conversations. That will be that those taken believed in Jesus Christ. Once this becomes known that will be the factor that becomes the breaking point for many. As they remember what we said, did and how we lived and that we placed our faith in Christ, the truth will hit many in the head and heart and they too will come to Jesus. Bibles will used like never before. Internet sites concerning the things of God will be used like never before. The rapture is the event that will finally get their attention and turn them to Christ. The rapture is an event of love and hope.

The rapture of christians will be an event that will be so strong of an influence that it will accomplish something so great. That something is it will get the attention of millions and perhaps billions. They will finally believe that God is who He is and He is real and does what He says.

That is why to tell of the rapture before the tribulation is honoring God, to deny it, is to dishonor Him. Unsaved people need to know that this event is going to happen so that when it does they won't fall for the lie that will be told about the event afterward.

There will be comfort for those left behind because they will finally understand what we meant about Christ and will be saved themself. They will finally be saved and escape hell.

I hope you read this far and I have a question. Where does it say in the Bible that there will be no tears in Heaven?