Is the Rapture even real.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

The Coming of the Lord
13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

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The above passage is what everyone that believes that there will be a rapture is based on. the bible does not even have the word rapture in it. So what other evidence is in the bible to support the claim that a Rapture will even happen?

Teachings about the rapture are based upon the assumptions of dispensationalism, a method of biblical interpretation popularized by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882). Dispensationalism relies upon several presuppositions:

1. God works and administers his plan during different periods of time upon differing foundational principles.

2. The Scripture is to be interpreted literally.

3. All biblical prophecy should be understood by premillennialism -- that Christ will return and then set up an earthly reign for one thousand years.

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[edited cut and paste - nygdan]

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Nygdan]

I disagree with the use of the term rapture when referring to future events of the Bible. I believe outside of nitogen narcosis, a physical rapture brought on by the bends of deep water diving, the term is more of an emotional experience.

The above scriptures you refer to discribes where the sons and daughters of God meet the Lamb of God, (Son of God, King of Kings, High Priest, Jesus, Yahveh Shua) in the air for the marriage supper. After which, the Hosts return to Earth where they save the remaining humans from utter destruction and begin setting up the Millennium Kingdom of God. Some teach this is the rapture. Call it whatever makes sense as long as understanding accompanies this event.

The initial Trump of God upon Christ's initial return to collect his invited guests, sets into effect some kind of human metamorphosis in selected people that have died sometime in the past. They become Christ-like with immortality. After this occurrence, the individually selected living-humans will go through the same metamorphosis into immortality and meet the others (previously dead) in the air to attend the marriage feast of the Lamb of God. The King of Kings will become the Bridegroom and return to Earth with his hosts that attended the marriage feast. The Ecclesia (called out ones, chosen, overcommers) will return with the Groom to save his bride and establish his Millennium Kingdom for a 1000 year period.

After 1000 years, the remaining dead, not apart of the first ressurrection will be brought to life and judged. These will go into everlasting hell or into everlasting life. The everlasting life people will not experience the metamorphosis into immortality and become Christ like. They will, through a new covenant, have the laws in their hearts and sin no more.

Haydes or hell is thrown into the lake-of-fire where it will burn forever and ever. Christ's Kingdom will be established for ever and ever. Which really bring up some interesting points:

1. Do humans in this newly established Kingdom continue with space travel and explore the created universe?

2. Do these humans actually get to populate class M planets of the Universe now that they have become truely sin-free?

Excuse the rambling, you hit upon a topic I enjoy considering the possiblities.

This ground has already been covered and your position soundly refuted in other threads here at this site.
The bible is the source and it is found as early as 300 AD in eastern churches as well

Thanks for yet ANOTHER rapture thread.

If you want to learn the truth then read your bible.
There are many prophecy studies here
www.tribulationforces.com...

jake1997, thanks for being a smart ass. Seriously!!! Can't you post without trying to degrade someone?

I have read the entire bible and no were did i see the word rapture. show me were the word rapture is in the bible. show me were in the bible it says that live human beings will be taken to heaven without dying while leaving the sinners to face the tribulation.

My first post was edited for me by the mods so read the article associated within the qoutes on my first post.

If that came over as harsh, I apologize.
It was not the intention.


There are 3 or 4 other threads about the rapture that I can think of right off the bat.

To say that the lack of the word "rapture' is evidence that it is false is foolish.

I answered you with a link that you have not read yet. I also just answered you in another thread.

Cool, no offense intended towards you. Thank you for the link.

i posted the same question in another thread about the rapture and no one answered so out of frustration i started my own thread. I read some of the web link that you pointed me to and it still did not really show beyond a doubt to me that there will indeed be a rapture. I will read some more from it and other sources.

You know.... If Christians spent half the time on performing charitable works and taming their flesh (i.e., the "Id", the Evil Impulse, "that Old Man") and developing the "fruits of the Spirit" THAT they do on prophecy and musings about the tribulation and the "rapture" ... they might actually hasten the advent of the Anointed One. Just a thought....

As to the question at hand.... I would refer the readership to the books authored by Dave MacPherson.

smadewell, thanks for the post. I agree with your statement for the most part. I am a courious individual and hear alot of religious people saying that they will not have to go through a tribulation if it is in our time. I have not been able to find in the bible were it talks about a rapture (gods people being plucked from the earth into heaven not having gone through death first). I have asked many people what the specific passages are that indicate that there will be a rapture and they have only been able to point to one passage that I have posted above. So that is why I asked my question in this forum.

If you think about it...for everything God tells us there is an OT example.

Look for that instead.
I did a study on it home.nc.rr.com...

"Your position has already been refuted la la la la."

Jake, shut your mouth and listen for once. You are completely insane. First and foremost your bible is the biggest compillation of contradictory statements I have ever read. Note that I said, "I have ever read". That is something you have never done, likely because you are partially illiterate. Likewise, most christians have never done that.

To state that a rapture is going to occur because your bible says so is stupid. Your bible says a lot of things, like for instance the second coming of christ will be within the lifetimes of those alive when jesus was. Which of course never occured because it, like most of the bible, was BS. Your bible is consitent about one thing. Being wrong. So, taking words from that book to support your view is fruitless.

Furthermore, the hterrifyingly contradictory book NEVER MENTIONS THE RAPTURE. NOR DOES IT DESCRIBE SUCH AN EVENT. It is funny to see how you christians justify your god to be loving by creating stories to account for his predicted wrongdoings to you. "God loves us, he wont put us through that". Its really amusing.

The point of this thread has never been refuted. Only your ridiculous standpoint in life and on this subject has. Honestly, your head is deeply implanted in your rectal cavity if you ask me.

If you don't like reading threads on this topic, then dont. Spare us all. Every time you talk we all become less intelligent. The fact that you are allowed to talk with your insanity is the only flaw of our constitution in the united states. It should read something like, "freedom of speech unless you are a complete idiot". So go crawl under the rock you came from and leave us all alone.

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
So what other evidence is in the bible to support the claim that a Rapture will even happen?

There are MANY verses that tell of the rapture and the timing. Here is one with the word meanings following. I will post the others without the expanded meanings because it is time consuming to do so. I have done one to show you that there are deep things hidden in the Bible and the Bible needs to be searched through as if you looking for treasure, because it is filled with many insights and truths.


Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

watch
A. strongs #69- keep awake
B. dictionary-watch
1.To look and wait expectantly or in anticipation: watch for
an opportunity
2.To act as a spectator; look on:
3.To stay awake at night while serving as a guard, sentinel, or
watcher
4.To stay alert as a devotional or religious exercise; keep vigil.

5.To look at steadily; observe carefully or continuously:
6.To keep a watchful eye on; guard:
7.To observe the course of mentally; keep up on or informed pray
A. strongs #1189-petition, beseech, make request
B. dictionary-To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God,
1.To make a fervent request or entreaty.

accounted
A.strongs #2661- to deem entirely deserving
B.dictionary-
1. A reason given for a particular action or event: A report relating to one's conduct: gave a satisfactory account of herself.
2.A basis or ground: no reason to worry on that account.
3. Worth, standing, or importance
4.Profit or advantage

Worthy
A.strongs#2661- same as accounted
B. dictionary Having worth, merit, or value; useful or valuable.

Escape
A. strongs# 1628: to flee out #1537:completion #5343: shun, TO
VANISH
B. dictionary.-

1.To break loose from confinement; get free:
2.To issue from confinement or an enclosure;
3.To avoid a serious or unwanted outcome

4.To succeed in avoiding:
5.To break loose from; get free of:


6.The act or an instance of escaping.
7.A means of escaping.
8.A gradual effusion from an enclosure; a leakage.

Stand-
A.strongs#2476-appoint, bring, covenant, establish, present
B.dictionary-
1.To be placed or situated:
2. To take up
3. To be in a position of possible gain or loss:

before
A.strongs#1715-in front of, in presence of, in sight of
B. dic tionary-
1.In front of.
2.In store for; awaiting:
3.Into or in the presence of:
4.Under the consideration or jurisdiction of
5.In a position superior to:

Originally posted by Seapeople
"Your position has already been refuted la la la la."

You didn't address this to me but the position that the rapture is real and before the tribulation has not been refuted. I have listed some of the many verses before and will so again. There is more than enough evidence to support it.

Originally posted by cryptorsa1001
smadewell, thanks for the post. I agree with your statement for the most part. I am a courious individual and hear alot of religious people saying that they will not have to go through a tribulation if it is in our time. I have not been able to find in the bible were it talks about a rapture (gods people being plucked from the earth into heaven not having gone through death first). I have asked many people what the specific passages are that indicate that there will be a rapture and they have only been able to point to one passage that I have posted above. So that is why I asked my question in this forum.

Well, thanks for taking the time to read my little post. (That rarely happens around here!) Now I understand your reason for your asking the question.

there's more than one verse that tells of the rapture and that it is before the tribulation. There could be more.

2 Thessalonians ch. 2
Luke 21:36
Acts 14:14-17
Matthew 16:18 (the rock is that Christ is the savior)
Matthew 24:22, 24, 42, 44
Mark 13:20
Luke 21:28
Revelation 3:10

Colossians 3:12 & Revelation 1:5-6, 3:8, 4:1, 4:4, 5:8-10(all in conjunction together)
Romans 5:9
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
1 Thessalonians 1:6-10
1 Thessalonians 5:4,9 -11
Titus 2:13
Jude vs. 14
Isaiah 57:1
Isaiah 26:20-21


Take your Strong's and look up residue from Acts 14:14-17. It's means left down or left behind

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by Seapeople
"Your position has already been refuted la la la la."

You didn't address this to me but the position that the rapture is real and before the tribulation has not been refuted. I have listed some of the many verses before and will so again. There is more than enough evidence to support it.

For god sake, nothing in your bible has been substantiated!!!! Your verses are meaningless for the above stated reasons to begin with. Not to mention how horribly you take them out of context. Let alone the fact that you are attemting to do so off a book that has been translated, in many cases inaccurately. The book is known to have been changed. Even your KJV 1611 was altered as it was translated to compensate for glaring errors.

Your mind is full of nonsense, and it shows every time you think. Your stupid mind allows you to believe things like global floods killing the population of the earth aside from one guy and his family along with every living land animal ON ONE BOAT. Forget the fact that we know this is impossible. Ignore the fact that water of this magnitude is unachieveable on this planet. The entire idea itself is ridiculous. Your mind allows you to believe you have free will AND an omnipotent god. Your mind allows you to believe that that same omnipotent god loves those he creates while he knows they will go to hell.

It is your ridiculous line of thinking that allows you to totally reject comon reasoning out of your silly fears of realizing that you are wrong. You reject what you see every day, the math you study, the science, all in order to ignore what you know deep inside. You know your stance is illogical. You know your bible is horribly innacurate and terrifyingly contradictory. You know these things, but it is YOUR FEAR OF DEATH that forces you to ignore them. You are a coward. You are mentally ill. You are a plague to society. You, and everyone who thinks like you.


[edit on 6/4/2005 by Seapeople]

Man I got 3 different opinions, one says yes to the rapture, one says no rapture and the other thinks everyone is crazy. That is one more opinion than I thought I would get but hey why not get everyones opinion. I will take some time to look over the information you guys have posted. thanks for posting and i look forward to having some discussions with all 3 of you.

Anything that you or anyone else believes to be true, it is.

Perception is reality

Perception is not reality. Not all the time.

Take a young child for instance. If everytime that child cries, the mother gives it what it wants, soda, candy, whatever, the imediate perception of the situation for the child is that it is happy. In reality, which you EQUATE to perception, the child is being harmed. In the future, that child will expect everything it wants, thus making it harder for the child, and the parent. Spoiling is a perfect example of why you didn't think that god-awful statement through.

A man commits a crime. He commits it becuase he wants to. It seemed necessary at the time for whatever reason. Whether he be addicted to crack, wanted money, or whatever. His perception is that it will make his situation better. In reality, WHICH AGAIN, YOU EQUATED TO PERCEPTION, he is going to be getting a painful rectal exam at prison eventually for this.

If you believe something that is not true. That may be your perception of meaningless information. If in doing so, you neglect information that is not meaningless, the reality (again...which you equated) is that you are harming yourself and society as a whole.

Perception is not reality. It is precisely that type of thinking that leads to poverty and pain in our society. Class envy. Hatred of this country. All these things are caused by people equating their immediate perception to reality.

Peoples immediate perception of your statement in the previous post may be something like, "wow, that makes sense", the reality is that it was about as stupid of a statement as saying Hitler was a good guy. After all, his immediate perception of his situation was that he was right...wasn't it? Was that reality? Relativity theory doesn't apply here buddy.

No need to be rude.

I always give respect, so I demand it back, if not willing to give wont give you the time of day, that being said.

Take a camra with you for a whole day, try to get one you can put at eye level so it can tape everything you see. At the end of the day come back and tell me how stupid I am. Nuff said.

[edit on 4-6-2005 by SpittinCobra]

Visible range....

Interesting how you limited your perception to that when we were talking about an entire range of "perceptions. I am not being rude. The problem with people today is that when they are incorrect, they are offended to see the truth. Look in the mirror, nuff said.

If there were 36 ten foot tall poles in front of any given person, and this person just so happened to be me, with the camera as you asked. They were arranged into a perfect square. Six by six. For the sake of this argument, let us just pretend that I, with my camera, stood in a position that they were all visible. I would count 36 poles. My perception, with my camera is 36 poles. In reality, there are 36 poles in front of me. Your idea worked here...amazing.

Now, how about we arrange those 36 poles into a straight line. For the sake of this argument, I am standing with my camera in a manor that I would look directly down this straight line. My perception of the situation could be one of two things. I would either be an uneducated fool and say that there is 1 pole. Or, I could be knowledgable of the situation, and my reality would be that there is 36 poles.

Now, I had my camera. And I took pictures. If I was to show you, without you knowing the situation, the picture where I was looking down a straight line, you would see only one pole. You would tell me that there was only one poll present. No matter what your perception of the situation was, the reality of it was that there were 36 poles.

Now, when you speak of perception in your previous two posts, you are speaking only of perception in a visible field of view. That is the only situation where your point of view holds any water, and that is if you disregard the REALITY of what I just wrote.

Take the bible and compare it to that picture. Just because you only see 1 poll, or in the bibles case, read into it for one specific message, and have that as your perception, in no way does that equate to reality.

As a young child, my father once asked me to multiply 4x4. I had no idea at the time how to multiply, but I remember this situation clearly because I got the right answer and I was so proud of myself. I came up with sixteen. What I did in my head was add 4+4 to get 8. Then I added 8+8 to get sixteen. You being educated beyond that point would see that as a ridiculous method to multiply. Honestly, that impression is correct, because that does not work in reality. My perception at the time was that is how you multiply because I came to a correct answer. Now tell me cobra, is that reality?



[edit on 6/4/2005 by Seapeople]