Out Of Place Artifacts

Originally posted by berglion
...There's also the Isle Royale copper mines in the area dated to around the same time. The date sounds unbelievably early, but I'm keeping an open mind on this one.

faculty.ucr.edu...
faculty.ucr.edu...

From your Isle Royale site:

Around the northern shore of Lake Superior, and on the adjacent Isle Royale, there are approximately 5,000 ancient copper mine workings. In 1953 and 1956 Professor Roy Drier led two Michigan Mining and Technology expeditions to the sites. Charcoal found at the bases of the ancient mining pits yielded radiocarbon dates indicating that the mines had been operated between 2000 BC and 1000 BC. These dates correspond nearly to the start and the end of the Bronze Age in northern Europe. The most conservative estimates by mining engineers show that at least 500 million pounds of metallic copper were removed over that time span, and there is no evidence as to what became of it.

Compare with these two quotes from Susan R. Martin, a real Archaeologist actually working in Michigan. These remarks were originally published in The Michigan Archaeologist. You can read them here

Now we turn to the second major theme in the copper culture myth, that of the dogma of the missing copper. Where did all the copper go? This theme is formulated on a calculus of mythic arithmetic, a prehistoric numbers game! The mythic calculations involve the numbers and depths of copper extraction pits, the numbers and weights of stone hammers, the percentage volume of copper per mining pit, the numbers of miners, and the years of mining duration. Ultimately, the mix of these numbers yields the alleged total amount of extracted prehistoric copper, that being in the range of 1 to 1.5 billion pounds. It's difficult to attribute this branch of mathematics to any one individual, but if there's credit to be given, it should be given first to Drier and Du Temple (Drier and Du Temple 1961) and then to a Chicago-area writer named Henrietta Mertz, who lays out her numerology proposals in a book entitled Atlantis: Dwelling Place of the Gods (Mertz 1967).

and

MYTH: Other elements...are mantra-like repetitions of numbers that combine the head count of miners, a time duration of mining, and mining pit counts into an algorithm of total exploited copper. "Furthermore it is believed that as many as 10,000 miners, labored some 1000-plus years, in an estimated 10,000 Copper Range pits" (Sodders 1990:30). Essentially the same mathematical alchemy is reported by Drier and Du Temple, who add that the total amount of removed copper approaches 1 to 1.5 billion pounds.

"If one assumes that an average pit is 20 feet in diameter and 30 feet deep, then it appears that something like 1000 to 1200 tons of ore were removed per pit. If the ore averaged five percent, or 100 pounds per ton then approximately 100,000 pounds of copper were removed per pit. If 5000 pits existed, as earlier estimates indicated (and all pits are copper bearing), then 100,000 pounds per pit in 5000 pits means that 500,000,000 pounds of copper were mined in prehistoric times - all of it without anything more than fire, stone hammers, and manpower. If the ore sampled 15 percent, and if more than 5000 pits existed, then over 1.5 billion pounds of copper were mined (Drier and Du Temple 1961:17).

FACT: The figures are made up out of thin air and can be sneezed away. That's because no one has a means to measure any of these variables accurately or with any precision. All of these figures are built on ill-constructed estimates. Let's examine the variable "percentage of copper in the trap rock" as an example. Clearly, the actual percentage of copper in rock varies from none (plain old rock) to one hundred percent (Ontonagon Boulder). Additionally, while the course of copper in trap rock is somewhat predictable, the amount of copper isn't necessarily constant or even regular. Many failed mining concerns of the nineteenth century found out this fact of geology the hard way! The counts of copper pits, the sizes of pits, and the weight of removed trap are 1) either arbitrarily-chosen numbers, or 2) variable in reality; despite this they are used as constants in the algorithm. Drier and Du Temple used a constant for copper percentage (error) and then multiply it by an estimated number of pits (error inherent) of a constant size (error), counting some and extrapolating to unknown areas (another error). Because we know that pits are not randomly but systematically located, excavated and followed, it makes no sense to extend their probable locations to unknown areas unless one is willing to accomodate enormous errors. In these algorithms, error compounds error compounds error. The resultant sums are a statement of faith, not fact; the numerologists may as well be counting angels dancing on heads of pins.

I know, it's a long quote and I probably shouldn't do that, but I couldn't find anything in there that I could leave out of this post.

The "Ancient Copper Mines" in Michigan have also been attributed here at ATS to Atlanteans and Egyptians. I suggest anyone interested in these mines should go to the site I linked and read the paper for themselves. These ancient mines, like so many other ooparts, are just a wild goose chase.

Harte

Originally posted by timoothy
From ancient geological strata comes what have been labeled OOPARTS, or Out Of Place Artifacts. These are what appear to be recently produced items and imprints found in natural mineral formations millions of years old. Conservative historians and archaeologists, who hold to the concept of linear cultural development, point to the ancient Middle East as the home of the very first metal production. Here, they claim, man began to melt and shape copper, iron, gold, and silver only 8,000 years ago


1820 From The American Journal of Science and Arts, 1820 comes the account of an ancient tool discovery. At a quarry near Aixen-Provence, France, in 1788, 40 or 50 feet below ground in a layer of limestone were found coins, petrified wooden handles of hammers, pieces of other petrified wooden tools, and a quarrymen's board. The limestone was 300 million years old.

1826 In a well dug near the Ohio River in north Cincinnati at a level 94 feet down, a buried tree stump was found which showed the marks of an ax. The marks were deep and well cut, indicating the use of a sharp and durable blade. The ax used was confirmed to have been made of metal when, embedded in the top of the stump, an advanced oxidized wedge of iron was found. The layer in which the stump was found was dated to be between 50,000 and 75,000 years old nearly 10 times the accepted age of the supposed first metal usage.

1851 In the June 1851 issue of Scientific American, a report was reprinted from the Boston Transcript about a metallic vase dynamited out of solid rock in Dorchester, Massachusetts. The bell-shaped vase was 4 1/2 inches high, 6 1/2 inches at the base, 2 1/2 inches at the top and an eighth of an inch thick. The metal of the vase was composed of an alloy of zinc and a considerable portion of silver. On the sides were six figures of a flower in bouquet arrangements, inlaid with pure silver, and around the lower part a vine, or wreath, also inlaid with silver. The chasing, carving, and inlaying are exquisitely done by the art of some unknown craftsman. This vase was blown out of solid pudding stone from 15 feet below the surface. The estimated age was 100,000 years.

1867 At the Rocky Point Mine, in Gilman, Colorado, at a depth of 400 feet excavators found human bones embedded in a silver vein and a well-tempered copper arrowhead. The vein was dated at 135 million years old.

1877 Prospectors near Eureka, Nevada found a human leg bone and kneecap sticking out of solid rock. Doctors examined the remains and determined they were from a very modern-looking human being, and one that stood over 12 feet tall. The rock in which the bones were found was dated geologically to the Jurassic Period, over 185 million years old

1896 From the American Anthropologist, 1896 comes the finding of a perfect human imprint in stone near Parkersburg, on the West Virginia side of the Ohio River. The track was 14 1/2 inches long, and was found embedded in stone dated at 150 million years old.


See more at this site
www.bibleufo.com...



I think we have something wrong with our dating procsses.

Edit: All caps.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by intrepid]

A geophysicist with national security clearance told me Smithsonian Museum has an area not open to the public, as a national security clearance only area. He says they keep Ooparts we've never heard of there.

Ooparts break all the rules, yet can be explained by EM field warp effects a.k.a. the Bermuda triangle effect.

An entire Australian regiment vanished in a mist at the battle of Galipoli Turkey before many witnesses.

Lawman Bat Masterson was escorting a herd & rowdy cowboys out of the territory when they vanished in front of him & his other lawman.

"The Complete Books of Charles Fort" has many historic accounts of anomalies, many of which can be explained by the Bermuda triangle effect; things like fish falling from the sky and other stuff. www.forteantimes.com...

The Philadelphia Experimentroject Invisibility by William Moore/ Fawcett Crest NON-FICTION Books cites the gov documentation that's been reclassified since, & is officially denied. The movie shows sailors caught imbedded in the deck in the EM field experiment.

The geophysicist I know explains a very different static electric field is around bodies and steel in a warp field. The field shutdown was too partial at first in the experiment.

Via the warp effect, anything could become embedded in coal etcetera in the wrong age, because time warps in the warp field. Google "time warps" to see confirmation by top physicists that within the EM geomagnetic field of any major planet, time warps are possible naturally; the anomalous dark spots of Jupiter for instance.

www.mkaku.org... for a physics professor about extradimensionality. Rarely, you may notice fluxes on weather radar that are a detection of the phenomena, NOT limited to Bermuda at all.

IF aliens exist, & can vanish their ships on film repeatedly, it shows the ability to warp out & travel time. The 144000 redeemed are predicted to get a "new earth" repeatedly in the Bible, & the Lord is said to have been at Eden in the new earth, before he was born. The children of Adam & Eve found mates already there somehow. If beings & ships can vanish, they can time travel, with axes or whatever.

It both adds & subtracts mystery to the mystery, huh?
www.ufoevidence.org...

An entire Australian regiment couldtn dissapear at Gallipoli. For them to so so a two mile hole in the line would have appeared. What actually happened is that the division attacked, where hit by artillery while in no mans land and their bodies were scattered to the four winds.

And as for the Philadelphia experiment book, just because its non fiction doesnt mean its true....

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
An entire Australian regiment couldtn dissapear at Gallipoli. For them to so so a two mile hole in the line would have appeared. What actually happened is that the division attacked, where hit by artillery while in no mans land and their bodies were scattered to the four winds.

And as for the Philadelphia experiment book, just because its non fiction doesnt mean its true....

-------------------------------Charles Fort spent his whole life collecting historic reports of anomalies of any sort in "The Complete Books of Charles Fort", and he always cites his source of the report for doublechex.
www.forteantimes.com...

"Unsloved Mysteries" by Globe Communications Corp in Boca Raton Florida also has the Gallipoli regiment story on page 18 & 19. Hundreds witnessed it, as the cloud came over them & they vanished in it. The cloud then rose and headed north.

That's 2 sources to none about Gallipoli regiment vanishing.

"Philadelphia Experiment: Project Invisibility" by W. L. Moore/Fawcett Crest NON-Fiction Books, from the back cover;
"Now, official documents and first hand stories have been revealed. Here is the truth in a report so shattering, it's hard to believe it's non-fiction".

See the movie, whether your little box can handle it as reality or not.

There were 20000 men in an allied division during the Gallipoli campaign. Thats not just frontline men, thats logistical support, cooks, pe trainers, the list is fairly endless.

If ou read any history books on the Gallipoli campaign its pretty easy to guess what happened to this division. The front lines marched into machine gun fire and were blown apart. Nothing unusual there. Battlefield psycosis may have had an effect, with soldiers seeing things that arnt really there, giving the story slightly more substanc, for instance the 'Angel of the Mons' that was supposed to have aided the Aliies at one point, only frontline soldiers saw it, doesnt make it real.

Finally there is a memorial in France to the million people who didnt have any identifiable remains. Did they all dissappear too?

I also have done much research on OOParts.
I can tell you from situations related to Oklahoma, and supposed settlements of people here a quarter of million years ago, that much is overstated and guessed regarding ooparts...

they are just that... parts that dont make sense. If they had an explanation, then it would be found...

most likely, many of these "deep" objects are objects that were buried and the limestone, or pudding rock re-encased the object, making it look like it is from that layer...
We bury things all the time...right? sometimes for religious reasons, sometimes for protection... and why wouldn't we use the very same material that we just excavated to refill the hole...?

Mind you, I am not denying the possibility of time warps... lord knows more than that has happened in this wierd world, I am only saying that taken in whole, there are many possible reasons for each individual case, and different situations for each are expected...

some buried, some time warp, some just simple teleportation errors on local alien mothership...
and some are errors in data from the original dating...
one theory does not fit all situations...

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
A geophysicist with national security clearance told me Smithsonian Museum has an area not open to the public, as a national security clearance only area. He says they keep Ooparts we've never heard of there.

Well I know a geophysicist with even higher security clearance than your geophysicist and he says that there isn't a room in the Smithsonian where they keep "Ooparts". He says this is BS.

Ooparts break all the rules, yet can be explained by EM field warp effects a.k.a. the Bermuda triangle effect.

Good. Well I'm glad you've cleared that one up.

An entire Australian regiment vanished in a mist at the battle of Galipoli Turkey before many witnesses.

I have heard of this legend, however it has been de-bunked lots of times. It also doesn't have anything to do with so called out-of-place artifacts.

Lawman Bat Masterson was escorting a herd & rowdy cowboys out of the territory when they vanished in front of him & his other lawman.

What, they got away?

"The Complete Books of Charles Fort" has many historic accounts of anomalies, many of which can be explained by the Bermuda triangle effect; things like fish falling from the sky and other stuff. www.forteantimes.com...

Charles Fort's philosophy is subtle and complex and was simply not a case of believing everything he heard was literally true. Just because he collected an anomaly doesn't mean he took it at face value. A Fortean approach is to be open minded about phenomana and still be interested in them whether they are "real", an hallucination or legend or whatever. Forteans will also go with the evidence available, rather than just what they are told to be true. It is quite easy to be a scientist and a good Fortean.

Fortean Times is a superb magazine which I have subscribed to for several years. However it certainly isn't a magazine for all out "believers", as it regulary investigates phenomena and comes up with relatively prosaic explanations (you might call it debunking). A good example recently is their article on the Angel of the Mons in which investigates the legend that first world war soldiers encountered angels. It found that the original description had come from a novel, but quickly became the "truth" as it was repeated over time.

The Philadelphia Experiment

roject Invisibility by William Moore/ Fawcett Crest NON-FICTION Books cites the gov documentation that's been reclassified since, & is officially denied. The movie shows sailors caught imbedded in the deck in the EM field experiment.

You might want to dig through your Fortean Times back copies (presuming you actually read it) and find the one with the article that throughly debunks this particular legend. I will try and find the issue number if anyone is interested.

The geophysicist I know explains a very different static electric field is around bodies and steel in a warp field. The field shutdown was too partial at first in the experiment.

Again the geophysicist I know says this is BS. Can you provide any evidence?

IF aliens exist, & can vanish their ships on film repeatedly, it shows the ability to warp out & travel time. The 144000 redeemed are predicted to get a "new earth" repeatedly in the Bible, & the Lord is said to have been at Eden in the new earth, before he was born. The children of Adam & Eve found mates already there somehow. If beings & ships can vanish, they can time travel, with axes or whatever.

Well, this is just speculation isn't it?

Dr RTO is old now, and he was once involved in gov time warp experiments. He has a scar on his hip he says is from leaning against a Cadillac during an artificial flux event that melded his hip with the metal, as in the movie Philadelphia Experiment.

Saying the phenomena can't happen is hard to prove as proving it can, because it's national security topic info.

The Smithsonian is huge, with space underground also. I never said it was a room aboveground. Doc says he knows about it only because one of his experiments is stored there, with metal encased in wood. A deliberate Oopart.

Doc was assigned to me because of an anomaly back in 1985, involving gov and I, and a warp. That's why I know him. Providing his name could get him killed as a national security matter. He knows how to generate resonant frequencies to create a warp field.

If your geophysicist is that high up national security clearance, he'll know who DR Robert T. O. is, who was once one of 24 with his clearance.
He's part Native American, if that helps your geophysicist friend ID him.

If your geophysicist friend is that high a clearance, he's surely been terrorized by gov into towing whatever party line they want. I don't trust his anonymous words because of that.

James

Erm, I don't actually know a geophysicist. I was just making a point about not providing evidence but just saying "I know someone who..."

I was aslo being a bit sarcastic, sorry about that. However when we are just on a discussion board and it is impossible to tell whether you are genuine or not, so I can only ask for evidence to back up you claims. Otherwise I find them difficult to believe.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
"Erm, I don't actually know a geophysicist. I was just making a point about not providing evidence but just saying "I know someone who..."

The worst manners on this board are from moderators like you, Nygdan & Byrd! Your lie stated that I was lying without a doubt. Look at the home page about manners on this board, and see you falsely accused me of lying AS moderator!

James

Where did you get the impression I'm a moderator from? It cleary says member below my username.

I didn't call you a lier. I asked you to provide evidence to back up your claims.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
James

"Where did you get the impression I'm a moderator from? It cleary says member below my username."QUOTED.

Home page list of moderators on the left is where I got that idea. Fine apology for falsely claiming I lied about (google "time warps").

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
James

"Where did you get the impression I'm a moderator from? It cleary says member below my username."

]Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
Home page list of moderators on the left is where I got that idea. Fine apology for falsely claiming I lied about (google "time warps").

From ATS Board main page:

Super Moderators:
alien
asala
Byrd
DJDOHBOY
Gazrok
John bull 1
Kano
Netchicken
RANT
TheBandit795
Thomas Crowne
ZeddicusZulZorander
Moderators:
ADVISOR
Amorymeltzer
Amuk
astrocreep
cmdrkeenkid
dbates
Djarums
DontTreadOnMe
EnronOutrunHomerun
FredT
Gools
intrepid
JAK
kinglizard
Mirthful Me
Nerdling
Nygdan
observer
pantha
parrhesia
Phoenix
ProudAmerican
Quicksilver
sanctum
UM_Gazz
worldwatcher

Our Earthly father who art on ATS lukeduke be his name....alas is a lowly member like you and I.


And a 'google' of "time warps" does not back up your statement, "Via the warp effect, anything could become embedded in coal etcetera in the wrong age, because time warps in the warp field". I read Hawking's link, and it did indeed talk about warping space/time....not 'melding' body parts into inanimate objects by some sort of effect akin to the Philadelphia Experiment.

It's quite possible i missed it, perhaps you could provide a specific link instead of the generic "google it" which could lead to any number of pages having little or nothing to do with your statements.

And "the anomalous dark spots of Jupiter for instance." are not due to time warps, if you have some info(specifically) on that i would appreciate it.
Here's a relevant link from Space.com with pictures and commentary on the "Mystery Spot".

It's interesting but to make the leap that it's a by-product of time warps is unfounded at best and simply ridiculous at worst. I would definately favor the latter, but i'll take a good look at you proof once you dig it out of google and post it for us.

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
The worst manners on this board are from moderators like you, Nygdan & Byrd!

If you can't even determine who is and who isn't a moderator (by reading the word 'moderator' under their name') then why should anyone beleive that you are capable of doing anything else??? (or even can't properly use a 'quote' code)

Look at the home page about manners on this board, and see you falsely accused me of lying AS moderator!

You will also notice that posting information that you know is false is not permitted either, and yet you continue to make lunatic claims, such as having almost been made in the mafia, being a pot seller and then a 'government coc aine seller' and now apparently an associate with a secret governmental geophysicist, and also that you were invovled in a 'warp' experiment.

Fine apology for falsely claiming I lied about (google "time warps").

Why should he apologize? You made up some bunk about knowing a geophysicist who told you about secret chambers in the smithsonian, we're supposed to beleive this??

I don't care if professional naysayer Nygdan believes my past or not. A private investigator or lawyer could access my police record with a national security clearance.

It took 2 years once for me to get records from gov about me with a lawyer. A different lawyer had her house burn down via thermite grenade, melting her fireproof safe with documents on me, melting guns & jewelry.

I see no evidence of me lying about my career. My former career is why I know about the masonic mafia. Flak is heaviest right on target, as the unwarranted attacks of Nygdan proves. Bashing masons never goes unpunished. Google Mazzini.

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
I don't care if professional naysayer Nygdan believes my past or not.

Strictly speaking Nygdan is an amateur naysayer, as he is not paid by these boards. I don't believe his full time job is naysaying either.

It took 2 years once for me to get records from gov about me with a lawyer. A different lawyer had her house burn down via thermite grenade, melting her fireproof safe with documents on me, melting guns & jewelry.

I see no evidence of me lying about my career. My former career is why I know about the masonic mafia.

James - you really have a rich and colourful life don't you? Have you ever read the book Billy Liar by Keith Waterhouse? It's a fantastic read.

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
Dr RTO is *** now, and he was once involved in gov *** ***** experiments. He has a **** on his hip he says is from leaning against a Cadillac during an artificial flux event that melded his hip with the metal, as in the movie Philadelphia Experiment.

Doc says he knows about it only because one of his experiments is stored *****, with metal encased in wood. A deliberate Oopart.

Doc was assigned to me because of an anomaly back in 19**, involving gov and I, and a warp. Providing his name could get him killed as a national security matter. He knows how to generate resonant frequencies to create a warp field.

If your geophysicist is that high up national security clearance, he'll know who DR R***** T. O. is, who was once one of ** with his clearance.
He's part ******* *********, if that helps your geophysicist friend ID him.

If your geophysicist friend is that high a clearance, he's surely been terrorized by gov into towing whatever party line they want. I don't trust his anonymous words because of that.

And people here have trouble beleiving you would give all this info about this guy, if he truly exists, and has truly given you info... and if you are truly worried about his safety.
Kinda seems contrived... but I'll have my Girlfriend look him up, she is a private eye...
Don't worry... I wont tell anyone NEAR as much as you just did...
but maybe I can back up some of your claims, if it researches out...

In the future... feel free to U2u someone that kind of info, instead of post it...and I suggest you edit it if you can...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong

[quote/] "but I'll have my Girlfriend look him up, she is a private eye..."

It would help to have his last name, to look him up. I'd give you his phone # except he wouldn't like people calling him at all hours to misrepresent what I said, as is the habit of hostiles at ATS. It isn't crucial to anything enough to expose him to NSA danger, so think it's a lie, I don't care. I stand by my story.

Does anyone have any insights or updates on Egyptian petroglyphs found in Australia? I googled, Archeological Annomolies Australia, and found alot of very curious stuff.

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong


I'll skip quoting your obnoxiousness. Want evidence of EM geomagnetic field warp fluxes? Start with the search term "time warp" at www.google.com... where on the first page is the most famous physicists of our time confirming the reality. Physics proffessor Michiu Kaku at www.mkaku.org... is state of the art physics regarding extradimensionality.