You know, I think Masonry is inherently a Good organization.

I have visited many lodge websites, and some have referred to the Freemasons as "a brotherhood of men under the fatherhood of God."

They say that as a freemason, men will learn values that will help them become better husbands, fathers, employees, employers, etc.

Of course, as with ANY organization, there will be bad people that join it that do bad things. For instance, the Italian Masonic group is called the P2. (I lived in Italy for 5 years, just so you know) Some members of the leadership got into doing some illegal stuff, like drug trafficing and prostitution rings, and now the whole group has often been called the 5th Mafia group in Italy (after the Cosa Nostra, 'Ndrangheta, Camorra, and the Sacra Corona Unita).

But it was just a few leaders who went bad - not the whole group. I'm sure there have even been low- and high-ranking American Freemasons who have given the organization an undeserved black eye. Even the American Government has had bad people in its offices, low and high.

Originally posted by yeahright
Would it be a big shock to anyone that someone at some point used the "tools" of Freemasonry for a nefarious purpose?

I don't think this is likely, simply because the tools that Freemasonry provides a person are not the kind that CAN be used nefariously. It's like the Bible's lessons being used for evil, how would that happen? Freemasonry gives a man the tools to know himself and his creator, and can only be used for self-awareness and personal growth. How could anything like this be abused.

Or maybe you're talking about the brotherhood of Freemasonry? People think that the brotherhood (fraternal) aspect of Freemasonry, and the oaths that masons make to one another, can be used and abused for evil purposes. While it IS true that it COULD happen, it is extremely unlikely.

The oaths that masons make to one another are followed and exercised out of the respect one brother has to another. If it becomes obvious that a mason is trying to use fraternal assistance for nefarious purposes, that mason would be immediately cut off. I doubt anyone would even THINK of attempting such a thing, it doesn't seem likely from the very beginning. Most men who join Freemasonry because they think it will benefit them financially or career-wise end up leaving VERY quickly, because it becomes very obvious very quickly that masons will not do special favors for each other if they are for selfish, needless or nefarious purposes.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by yeahright
Would it be a big shock to anyone that someone at some point used the "tools" of Freemasonry for a nefarious purpose?

I don't think this is likely, simply because the tools that Freemasonry provides a person are not the kind that CAN be used nefariously. It's like the Bible's lessons being used for evil, how would that happen?

Ummmm...you don't think the Bible has a history of its lessons being distorted, twisted, and abused? And unscrupulous individuals haven't used Biblical citation to further personal agendas? I'm sure you don't mean that.

Originally posted by yeahright
Ummmm...you don't think the Bible has a history of its lessons being distorted, twisted, and abused? And unscrupulous individuals haven't used Biblical citation to further personal agendas? I'm sure you don't mean that.

Has any of the things the Bible, or Freemasonry, teaches ever been used to harm someone:

Love, faith, honor, charity, hope, etc....?

I'm not talking about something like these principles being fought and killed over, etc. I'm talking about these very concepts being used nefariously. It's impossible, because they are CONCEPTS OF GOOD.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Has any of the things the Bible, or Freemasonry, teaches ever been used to harm someone:

Love, faith, honor, charity, hope, etc....?

Don't take this as a personal argument, because I think we're pretty much in agreement, but yes I believe each of those things can be twisted to harm someone, and it happens fairly frequently. Ever hear the expression, "no good deed goes unpunished"? But I don't believe either the Bible or the teachings of Freemasonry encourage, promote, or justify that.

I Belive that masonry in thought and idea is ment to be good, Enlightening ones self, ect ect. But in practice Evil is drawn out of it. Like many other religions and organizations.

My Grandfather joined Free Masonry because a couple of had already joined and he thought it seemed like a good idea. But when he had to quit years later to maintain a dieing family farm, he was harassed to no extent, leading up to a couple of guys from the lodge crashing his funeral and demanding that he be buried with special attire.

I was at that funeral and i know i shouldent let a couple of " bad apples " spoil the whole thing for me but i dont think the question imposed can be answered with one straight reply. In everything there is Good / Evil.

ps. i know that this post will most likely get blasted for spelling / grammer
and also will be disregared as a fallacy by most masons.

Originally posted by Kittens Cause Cancer
My Grandfather joined Free Masonry because a couple of had already joined and he thought it seemed like a good idea. But when he had to quit years later to maintain a dieing family farm, he was harassed to no extent, leading up to a couple of guys from the lodge crashing his funeral and demanding that he be buried with special attire.

No offense, but I am going to have to call B.S. on what you just said. I don't believe it. Besides the FACT that a lodge does not want to keep someone who does not want to be a member, Freemasonry has ALWAYS been a voluntary thing that the mason must take up OF HIS OWN FREE WILL AND ACCORD. I have NEVER heard of someone being harrassed because they demit.

Additionally, masons crashing a funeral and DEMANDING that someone be buried in masonic attire?!?!? Come on now, that's just silly. In order to have a lodge provide anything for a brother's funeral, it is POLICY that the family of the brother must explicitly ASK the lodge to do so. If what you say is true and a couple of masons really crashed a funeral, they should have had masonic charges brought against them, and been kicked out of the fraternity.

ps. i know that this post will most likely get blasted for spelling / grammer
and also will be disregared as a fallacy by most masons.

Sorry, it's just not believable. Freemasons don't harrass people to join, and especially not masons who demit. It's a completely voluntary organization, and it's a PRINCIPLE of Freemasonry that one should be there of his own free will and accord.

Additionally, masons crashing a funeral and DEMANDING that someone be buried in masonic attire?!?!? Come on now, that's just silly. In order to have a lodge provide anything for a brother's funeral, it is POLICY that the family of the brother must explicitly ASK the lodge to do so. If what you say is true and a couple of masons really crashed a funeral, they should have had masonic charges brought against them, and been kicked out of the fraternity.

I have no other masons in my family, We know nothing of masonic charges ect ect, or how to go about pressing them ? I cannot give you reason as to why it happend, i can only give you the facts. Disregard them as you may.

Sorry, it's just not believable. Freemasons don't harrass people to join, and especially not masons who demit. It's a completely voluntary organization, and it's a PRINCIPLE of Freemasonry that one should be there of his own free will and accord.

where in my post did it say that he was harassed to join ?

[edit on 2-8-2005 by Kittens Cause Cancer]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I have NEVER heard of someone being harrassed because they demit.

You mean you DON'T blow up the toilets of members that try to leave?

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by sebatwerk
I have NEVER heard of someone being harrassed because they demit.

You mean you DON'T blow up the toilets of members that try to leave?

LOL.

Interestingly, there are several reasons a man may demit from the Masons, one is so he can affiliate with a different lodge. Most Masons would not demit in that case, your home lodge is usually special to you, but some do for financial or geological reasons. (They move to a different State and cannot afford dues in two lodges). When a Demit is read there is no reason given and the only objection one can give is whether the person is a Mason in good standing. If there are no objections, there never has been in our Lodge, the Demit is issued with no argument and nobody giving them any hassle at all.

So although blowing up toilets is fun, it is not particularly Masonic to do so.



(aaaarrrgh more spelling errors!)

[edit on 2-8-2005 by No1tovote4]

Originally posted by Kittens Cause Cancer
I have no other masons in my family, We know nothing of masonic charges ect ect, or how to go about pressing them ? I cannot give you reason as to why it happend, i can only give you the facts. Disregard them as you may.

If ANY masons had found out a pair of masons went to someone's funeral, crashed it and DEMANDED that the deceased wear his apron, they would be in BIG trouble. That's extremely disrespectful for the family AND for the brother. A lodge of masons will NEVER intentionally come between a brother and his family. This is why a candidate's petition will not be accepted if his wife does not approve of his joining.

where in my post did it say that he was harassed to join ?

I didn't say you did... I was just giving an example. Masons don't harrass people to try to get them to join, and they certainly dont harrass masons who want to quit.

My own valuable references:

"The Simpsons" - Episode 2F09.

....Things the masons do:

control the British monarchy
keep the metric system from being fully adopted in the United States
keep Atlantis from appearing on maps
keep the existence of Martians a secret
keep efficient electric vehicles from the market
make Steve Guttenberg famous
make cavefish blind
rig the Academy Awards every year

Also: Earn merit badges, learn the oath, get to know their mates...or is that the Boy Scouts.

Something I heard once: Just because any kid can join the scouts, repeat the oath, and earn his merit badges while getting to know his mates on a camping trip doesn't mean that the scout master's sneaky wife, who none of them have ever met, doesn't really run the entire show from a comfy chair at the top of a pastel pyramid while inventing funny names and silly hats. Those in the clubhouse will always tell you it is the best place to be. Maybe so, but only as far as they know.

Those who don't DON'T and those who do DO. It's always the same. And no one will ever tell you any different. Translation: There is nothing to see here. Move along. Preaching to the converted will only give one a sore throat.

If you want to find out big government secrets, do you walk into your local enlistment office and talk to that guy? I would...to get the free ARMY t-shirt and video game.

I wish all well on any informational quests. May you also have the fortitude and unbiased intellect to sort out all of the misinformation, disinformation, and REAL information.

"If I wanted camaraderie I'd join the masons." - Val Kilmer. "Spartan".

I had a very positive experience with a Mason Family. I even joined them in a ceremony at a nearby lodge. which was also very positive. I got into great conversations about many ideas and things and was then invitied to join. which is not hard to do anyway-they had pamphlets from I remember too. Unfortunately I declined for now considering it takes A LOT of dedication or at least so much that I cannot contribute as of now.

Originally posted by 2nd Hand Thoughts
Something I heard once: Just because any kid can join the scouts, repeat the oath, and earn his merit badges while getting to know his mates on a camping trip doesn't mean that the scout master's sneaky wife, who none of them have ever met, doesn't really run the entire show from a comfy chair at the top of a pastel pyramid while inventing funny names and silly hats. Those in the clubhouse will always tell you it is the best place to be. Maybe so, but only as far as they know.

The masons here have NEVER told others it is the best place to be. We have only spoken from personal experience. We have also discussed, MANY times, many of the downfalls and negative aspects of Freemasonry. Nobody pays attention to that stuff, of course, because it is boring.

If you REALLY want to see masons bitch about their Craft, go to www.thelodgeroom.com/forum and view some of the threads. This is a forum by masons and for masons, and is, in my opinion, an accurate projection of what Freemasonry is today for masons in the US, Canada and England.