A Fresh Start: Masonry Good or Evil.

Oh for heavens sake... sitting is a corner, who says that to adults!? it was a JOKE JOKE JOKE



People are too damn touchy Lighten up

Is anyone interested in a discussion?

[edit on 6/3/2005 by Cug]

I have this friend/coworker named Shay. He flipped open my cell phone one day and saw that i had the illuminati pyramid with the all seeing eye with an X through it on my screen as a wallpaper. He then proceded to tell me that his great uncle was a freemason. Which is crazy because some people don't think they are tied, anyway.... he said that his uncle had been a mason for 48 years.... and on his 48th year he told Shay this, while they were drinking one night. this is a quote: "SHAY, I WANT YOU TO KNOW SOMETHING, SOMETHING THAT I HAVE NEVER TOLD ANYONE. I AM AWARE THAT YOU KNOW I AM A FREEMASON. BUT LAST NIGHT I WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME A 33RD DEGREE MASON. THEY PROCEEDED TO TELL ME ABOUT THINGS THAT WERE SO TERRIBLE THAT I DARE NOT SPEEK OF THEM. SHAY, I AM SORRY THAT YOU WILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE THINGS THAT YOU WILL GO THROUGH. I WILL NOT BE HERE TO SEE YOU THROUGH THEM. BUT MARK MY WORDS.... I AM A CHRISTIAN MAN...AND THE THINGS THAT THEY TOLD ME...THESE THINGS....I CANNOT TELL YOU, FOR IT WILL RUIN YOU AND ANYONE YOU TELL...SO I MUST TAKE THE SECRET TO MY GRAVE...ALTHOUGH I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING.....NEVER GIVE UP YOUR FAITH IN GOD, BECUASE YOU WILL NEED IT. YOU WILL NEVER GET THROUGH THE THINGS TO COME WITHOUT GOD. I AM SORRY I CANNOT TELL YOU, BUT I FEAR FOR MY LIFE, AND EVEN MORE FOR YOURS. BUT NEVER STOP LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH, BECAUSE THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE MORE LIKELY YOU WILL SURVIVE."

Shay's uncle was killed in a car accident the following monday.... He drove off a cliff in northern callifornia off highway one. he lived in Arizona.

you wanted sources, there you go.

Seriously, what kind of source is that? It isn't even a written transcript. I am basically supposed to trust you, as well as your friend. I am to rely on third hand information. Come on.

If his granfather told him to never stop looking for the truth...then why didn't he fill him in on this great TRUTH? It already doesn't make sense.

I don't even know your friend. How could you expect us all to give this source any credit?

Is there at least a newspaper article, and obituary that you can give us, to maybe add a shred of credibility to this post?


[edit on 3-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Get your friend to post here. Otherwise nothing but third had info. I also find it curious you didn't mention this in your first post.

OK.....FINE....

I'M SORRY IF ONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH....DOESN'T EXPECT TO BE CALLED A LIAR. BUT IT HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES IN HISTORY. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT, BUT I WOULDN'T BOTHER TO TELL ANYONE IF IT WANSN'T TRUE. IM NOT SOME DAMN NERD WHO WISHES TO CAUSE A STIR TO GET ATTENTION. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE FREEMASONS BY CHOICE.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, HIS GREAT UNCLE WAS SCARED, IT TOOK HIM TO BE REALLY DRUNK TO EVEN TELL HIM WHAT HE DID.

MY BOY SHAY LIVED IN THE GHETTO HIS ENTIRE LIFE. AND I KNOW HE DOESN'T MAKE UP STORIES.

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE TRUST ISSUES.....DOESN'T MAKE IT MY PROBLEM

THE FACT THAT YOU RESPONDED SO FAST MAKE ME BELIEVE THAT YOU DIDN'T EVEN PONDER THE CONCEPT

TRY AGAIN LATER

If I told you I had a friend who's grandfathers deathbed confession was that he was Santa, would you accept it on face value?

Why should we believe what you wrote without the slightest bit of evidence?

[edit on 6/3/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by kataclysmik
OK.....FINE....

I'M SORRY IF ONE WHO TELLS THE TRUTH....DOESN'T EXPECT TO BE CALLED A LIAR. BUT IT HAS HAPPENED MANY TIMES IN HISTORY. BELIEVE WHAT YOU WANT, BUT I WOULDN'T BOTHER TO TELL ANYONE IF IT WANSN'T TRUE. IM NOT SOME DAMN NERD WHO WISHES TO CAUSE A STIR TO GET ATTENTION. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE FREEMASONS BY CHOICE.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, HIS GREAT UNCLE WAS SCARED, IT TOOK HIM TO BE REALLY DRUNK TO EVEN TELL HIM WHAT HE DID.

MY BOY SHAY LIVED IN THE GHETTO HIS ENTIRE LIFE. AND I KNOW HE DOESN'T MAKE UP STORIES.

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE TRUST ISSUES.....DOESN'T MAKE IT MY PROBLEM

THE FACT THAT YOU RESPONDED SO FAST MAKE ME BELIEVE THAT YOU DIDN'T EVEN PONDER THE CONCEPT

TRY AGAIN LATER

The reason I posted so quiclky, is because your "evidence" was so easy to dispell. And you helped me prove it even further, he was drunk. People do tend to exagerate a lot when they're drunk. And if he was old, well that may explain a lot. I know quite a few older people that really don't have a positive outlook on life.

It is this older generation that can see what is happening to our world because of technology and greed. Just today I got a lecture from an older lady about "our generation" and how it is our responsibility to take back this country. Albert pike even predicts the downfall of democracy, in his book Morals and Dogma (circa 1923), and according to his predictions the book, it is happening right now. His entire "fellow craft" chapter points out the flaws of bad governance, and he picks apart democracy, showing its vulnerabilities. Greed, scandal, lies and deception, are all things he says will bring down our country. It is not that hard to see, but Shay's grandfather can also see that today's generation is so dependendant on technology that if it were taken from us, we would surely panic.

I am sorry I came off so rude, I have a tendancy to be very to-the point. I was a competitive debator, and I know what evidence is, I am just defending my territory. Unfortunately, only a direct interview can be considered evidence, that igoes for most formal papers as well. Right now all I have is the testimony of you, about what your friend heard from his drunk masonic grandfather...

You also cannot expect me to trust anyone nowadays. For the most part I am a trusting person, but I have gotten burned in the past pal, so just back off. It is your responsibility to prove to me that your source is credible, not mine. I don't know his grandfaher, but if he was a mason I imagine he was a nice guy.

I hope you don't take too much offense from what I say, I am relly not a serious person. I am just putting my opinion out there.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Originally posted by kataclysmik
I have this friend/coworker named Shay. He flipped open my cell phone one day and saw that i had the illuminati pyramid with the all seeing eye with an X through it on my screen as a wallpaper. He then proceded to tell me that his great uncle was a freemason. Which is crazy because some people don't think they are tied, anyway.... he said that his uncle had been a mason for 48 years.... and on his 48th year he told Shay this, while they were drinking one night. this is a quote: "SHAY, I WANT YOU TO KNOW SOMETHING, SOMETHING THAT I HAVE NEVER TOLD ANYONE. I AM AWARE THAT YOU KNOW I AM A FREEMASON. BUT LAST NIGHT I WAS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO BECOME A 33RD DEGREE MASON. THEY PROCEEDED TO TELL ME ABOUT THINGS THAT WERE SO TERRIBLE THAT I DARE NOT SPEEK OF THEM. SHAY, I AM SORRY THAT YOU WILL HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE THINGS THAT YOU WILL GO THROUGH. I WILL NOT BE HERE TO SEE YOU THROUGH THEM. BUT MARK MY WORDS.... I AM A CHRISTIAN MAN...AND THE THINGS THAT THEY TOLD ME...THESE THINGS....I CANNOT TELL YOU, FOR IT WILL RUIN YOU AND ANYONE YOU TELL...SO I MUST TAKE THE SECRET TO MY GRAVE...ALTHOUGH I WILL TELL YOU ONE THING.....NEVER GIVE UP YOUR FAITH IN GOD, BECUASE YOU WILL NEED IT. YOU WILL NEVER GET THROUGH THE THINGS TO COME WITHOUT GOD. I AM SORRY I CANNOT TELL YOU, BUT I FEAR FOR MY LIFE, AND EVEN MORE FOR YOURS. BUT NEVER STOP LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH, BECAUSE THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE MORE LIKELY YOU WILL SURVIVE."

Shay's uncle was killed in a car accident the following monday.... He drove off a cliff in northern callifornia off highway one. he lived in Arizona.

you wanted sources, there you go.

Yeah and I am sure the Illuminati, New World Order, Pagan, Godless, Satanist, Terrorist Freemasons killed Shay's uncle the next day because he said too much.

1. I COULD MAKE A TRASH CAN LOOK LIKE A FLOWER POT IF I WANTED TO, THIS IS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE

2. I NO LONGER AM GOING TO BE A PART OF THIS SITE, BECAUSE IT BREEDS IDOTS AND COWARS.

3. THE PERSON WHO STARTED THIS THREAD DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR ENDLESS CRAP.

4. # OFF AND GO TO HELL ALONG WITH THE FREEMASONS THAT YOU SO LOVE AND ADORE.

5. I HOPE YOU HAVE FUN WHEN THE BEAST COMPUTER DESTROYS WHAT HUMANITY YOU HAVE LEFT.

6. MAYBE THE ILLUMINATI ARE RIGHT, MAYBE OUR "GOYIM" RACE REALLY DOESN'T DESERVE TO LIVE. WHAT EVER THE CASE, I AM THROUGH WITH YOUR DEMOCRACY TYPE THOUGHTS. I USED TO CARE ABOUT THE HUMAN RACE. THAT IS ALL GONE NOW...... EVERY MAN FOR HIS OWN....# OFF, AND GOOD NIGHT....# THIS FORUM... YOU WILL ALL ROT IN ETERNAL DAMNATION...... ONE MORE THING...... YOU ALL DESERVE LUCIFER.... AFTER ALL....HE MADE YOU WHO YOU ARE TODAY

YES...THIS IS THE TIME WHEN YOU GO....HMMMM...MAYBE I WAS STUPID...BUT SORRY....IT'S TO LATE...GOODNIGHT....AND HAPPY ARMEGEDDON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by kataclysmik

YES...THIS IS THE TIME WHEN YOU GO....HMMMM...MAYBE I WAS STUPID...BUT SORRY....IT'S TO LATE...GOODNIGHT....AND HAPPY ARMEGEDDON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the kind words, I am sorry to hear you cannot handle this discussion, and must remove yourself, but you're not reading this anyways so...Gosh I'm sooo STUPID!

Peace out.

P.S. Your caps lock key is on.

[edit on 3-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Let me point out a couple of problems, here:

1) knock off the excessive emoticons! Annoying!

B) Stop talking in ALL CAPS! Extremely annoying!

1+B=3) Why are we running a new thread on the same old question? Was it maybe a week ago that this same question was brought up? Same as the week before then? For Pete's sake! And Pete can use all the sake he can get!


Is the Masonic Organization Satan's Haven or is it the work of Christ? Over and over, around and around, and you expect, what? Someone to say something new to you asking this again?

Lookit, as I said last week, I am good friends with many a Mason. If they weren't good people, they would not be trusted friends. These are the kind of people who I would ask to hold my wallet for whatever reason, and when I got it back, I'd not even think about checking the cash. If anything, they're the kind of people who'd put cash in the wallet if there was none there.

At the heart of the organization, the very top bunch of guys, who knows? Do these guys here know, or do you know, or do I know what is in the hearts? Nope. And, you know that.

I judge an organization the best I can, and that is by the membership. I think I've already explained my feelings in reference to the membership, as far as I know them. These same guys, though, will tell you in a hurry, "All good men are Masons, but not all Masons are good men". That exemplifies humility, which is another fine trait.

I'm a Christian, and I do not believe that I, as a Christian, should be in a secret organization, and I will not ask any human to bring me from the dark and into the light; that was done by Christ. Were it not for those beliefs as stated, I would be a Mason tomorrow.

Hey, if I miss next week's rehash version of this thread, will someone copy/paste my response for me?



Thanks!

Oh well

Might as well zap this thread, no one thinks it's worth anything. Flame on

Not zapping a thing.

Not flaming, either. What you might want to do is look at what I said in regard to this thread and take the advice that has been offered in a jovial, tongue in cheek way.

You got a few pages out of a stale rehash, instead of afixing the post to an existing thread, so where's the beef, Chief?

A fresh start, that is what this thread was about, an honest to God discussion about the Freemasons, not a bunch of posts talking at people.. I just picked a generic topic to start it off as the discussion was bound to change.

Here is what seems a normal post in this forum.

An honest question (or it might start with something meant to inflame)
3 or 4 posts answering the question
An anti post with 20 quotes
3 or 4 posts addressing every quote
An anti post with 20 more quotes
3 or 4 posts addressing every quote
An anti post with 20 more quotes that were addressed yesterday
30 posts of people just bitching at each other

That's what I wanted to try to get away from, lets be honest not many people are going to read all of a post that's 8 screens long, skim yes, read no. If everyone is just going to act like they do in almost every other thread, then what's the use of this thread? It will just be a rehashing of the same old thing that instead of something a little different from the rest.

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
Albert pike even predicts the downfall of democracy, in his book Morals and Dogma (circa 1923),

EOH, et alia

Keep in mind that Pike's book "Morals & Dogma of the Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry" was not written for the public at large. In fact, many earlier editions of the book (the first edition was actually printed in 1871) said "Esoteric Book" on the inside facing page. At some point that was removed because it really is not. In fact ANYONE who wants a copy can purchase them directly from the Supreme Council in Washington DC. They're all used as the book has been out of print since the late 60's or early 70's.

Anyway the point is...Pike conglomerated the writings of MANY persons in this book and because it was intended as a lecure book for Scottish Rite Masons he didn't footnote anything. In some of the lectures he says "According to ...." or "The great .... says..." etc. but most of the time he just mixed it in with his own writing.

In the Preface (Page iii of every edition) Pike says:

In preparing this work, the Grand Commander [Pike] has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less.

On page iv he goes on to say:

It [Morals & Dogma] not being intended for the world at large, he has felt at liberty to make, from all accessible sources, a Compendium of the Morals and Dogma of the Rite, to re-mould sentencess, change and add to words and phrases, combine them with his own, and use them as if they WERE his own, to be dealt with at his pleasure and so availed of as to make the whole most valuable for the purposes intended. He claims, therefore, little of the merit of authorship, and has not cared to distinguish his own from that which he has taken from other sources, being quite willing that every portion of the book, in turn, may be regarded as borrowed from some old and better writer.

(Sounds a bit humble for a man the Anti's call a Satanist and the "most influential Mason, etc)

My point being that M&D is impossible to fully understand unless the reader has received the Degrees of the Scottish Rite AND he reads them in entirety and in context. This is where the anti-Masons who used M&D as an example fall terribly short. They do not and can not understand the work because they do not and can not understand the degrees. They also fall short because they think it's a book about Freemasonry in general, when in fact its intended not only for members of the Scottish Rite branch of Freemasonry, it's specifically for the members of the Southern Jurisdiction of the United States ALONE.

ADDENDUM: EOH, I just noticed that you said some similar things regarding Pike and this particular work of his on another thread. Rather than delete this, though, I'll leave it...maybe it will enlighten some who don't see the other post.

Regards

[edit on 4-6-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by Cug
*snip*

Originally posted by Golfie

The other thing that really intrigued me about Masonry are the traditions that are involved.

Thanks Golfie

I have a hypothetical question for the masons who posted. What if you found some sort of nefarious plan in the "higher ups" of Masonry. What would you do?

Cug,

First, I should expand on that one-liner from my previous post. After doing so I will answer your second question.

I found it very interesting that the traditions still held today in Masonry are the same as they were hundreds of years ago. As society has changed, Masonry has held strong to its tenants. It has stood the test of time and will continue. And I feel humbled and honored to be part of such a great, timeless organization.

That being said, I looked at a number of the men I knew and respected growing up. One thing that stood out, all of the men I knew to be Masons were upstanding, honest and caring individuals who as ThomasCrowne put it "I would trust with my wallet". I did not join because these men were Masons, nor did I join because of the "famous" people who were Masons. I joined because of what the organization itself stands for and the good it brings to the community and it's fellow members. I can safely say without a shadow of a doubt it does "Make Good Men Better". I've seen it first hand.

Now if I were to discover something nefarious related to Masonry...

I would be very surprised and crushed. I've never seen anything that has even hinted to such.

If it were a group of individuals, I would do as Sebatwerk said. Seek Masonic charges against those involved.

If I were to find, without a doubt, that it ran a lot deeper than that. I would politely submit my demit and leave. Because as Masonry itself states it is not to interfere with your duties to God, Family and Country. And if it ever did that, I personally would have no choice otherwise.

Again in my time as a member I've never seen anything whatsoever that would indicate that anything nefarious lurks in the shadows. I whole heartedly believe that Masonry as a whole is a good and upright group of men that is what it says it is.

Edit: Darned typos

[edit on 4-6-2005 by Golfie]

Now if I were to discover something nefarious related to Masonry...

I would be very suprised and crushed. I've never seen anything that has even hinted to such.

If it were a group of individuals, I would do as Sebatwerk said. Seek Masonic charges against those involved.

If I were to find, without a doubt, that it ran a lot deeper than that. I would politely submit my demit and leave. Because as Masonry itself states it is not to interfere with your duties to God, Family and Country. And if it ever did that, I personally would have no choice otherwise.

Again in my time as a member I've never seen anything whatsoever that would indicate that anything nefarious lurks in the shadows. I whole heartedly believe that Masonry as a whole is a good and upright group of men that is what it says it is.
golfie

A duck...yes...and who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?
I am King Arthur.
lol........I love those guys.
I must say I have read reams of nefarious accusations about masonry, you could fill a library with the stuff. And yet, I am not convinced. Why? cuz it is all malicious gossip. Masons I have met are generally good folk, and I have only met one person who had parted ways with them and had nothing good to say about them.
They do good works, and they have long held positions in our society which require trust. The judiciary, military, and law enforcement ranks have always been roles masons thrived in. This is as good a proof as any of their ethics. And the Shriners Hospitals are another.
They are good, maybe the barrell has a bad apple or two, but then all do.
I say they are good, without doubt.
That said, I doubt I will ever join. I would need a very good reason, and don't see one. But it is not cuz of the secret aspect, since freemasonry can hardly be called secret anymore. It used to be secret out of necessity, in order to survive, as it was considered to be at odds with the church, which I guess it was. I imagine the church didn't appreciate that any theist could join, be they Muslim, Jew, or Christian. I know that up until the edict of John Paul II, it was against RCC rules to be both a member of that church and a mason. They started up the K of C specifically to fill that niche.
I still don't know what to make of Albert Pike, what is the real deal?

[edit on 03 22 2005 by BlackGuardXIII]

I would just like to say hello and, as a 'newbie' to this discussion forum, would like to add my two cents worth if I may?

I really can't understand why people get SO hung up about the Freemasons for a number of reasons:

Are the Masons a secret society?

Intersting one this. If you Google the Freemasons you will find plenty of stuff regarding them for sure. However, you will also find their homepage(s). This will give you all the information such as becoming a member, where the lodges meet and stuff of that nature. That doesn't seem to be overly secret to me, so:

Do the Masons hold secrets?

Well sure they do. But then so does any other large organisation. You could liken them to any such organisation, for example, General Motors. I know this is gonna seem a bit odd, but bear with me. How much does it COST to build a car compared to how much you buy it for? We all know the basic principles of building a car because we've all seen the robot production lines on telly, but what about all the details? For instance, how much does it cost to produce a windscreen, engine, tyres, salaries for the workers, electricity for running the plant, spray paints, nuts, bolts washers and the list goes on. The information IS out there if we could be bothered to look for it but 'Apathy rules OK!' All the general public really wants to know is 'How much is my automobile?'.
How much does the CEO earn of General Motors? What sort of deals does he get up to with high ranking government officials? He is sure as hell not gonna tell all and sundry about these deals so he's gonna keep them secret. Is it all a conspiracy? I don't think so, it's just business. Just like the Masons but the 'business' is a bigger concern.

What are these secret rituals within the Masonic lodges?

Rituals are used everywhere. We all use them at some stage. Have you never heard the expression of 'get out of the wrong side of the bed'? If we get our routine spoiled at the beginning of the day it puts us out of sorts for the rest of the day. For really good rituals, just go to any Christian church. They even wear ritualistic robes... They're just used to sort out the wheat form the chaff as it were. If you can't be bothered to learn a few rituals then how are you gonna stick it at the top in business?

Why are there so many Masons in high profile positions within the community?

Because it's a back-scratching club. What is so wrong with that?

Now, this club is open to all if they could be bothered to get off their fat backsides and join it, but it's easier to bemoan their lot and talk of conspiracies instead.

It is not the government or world leaders that are keeping us in the dark, it is our own petty little, closed off, minds that can't see past our own front doors and our own family unit.

So are the Masons good or evil? Neither, they are just running the world as a business...

Originally posted by Kyuudousha
So are the Masons good or evil? Neither, they are just running the world as a business...

While most of what you said is accurate, Freemasons are not a "back-scratching club", nor do we run the world as a business. Freemasonry is a fraternity that teaches its members to better themselves through charity, honor, love and faith in God.

If we run the world as a business, I have yet to see any profits.

Hello there

I agree with the sentiments of 'good' and all the rest of it but there is no getting away from the fact that Masons will tend towards doing business with other Masons if possible. They will help each other out where they can, if they can. It's human nature after all.

Certainly Freemasonry can be used for 'back scratching' should you so wish. Why waste time and effort denying it?

As for the rewards, well, people in high places seems to be reward in itself. Somebody commented earlier in the thread that there were masons in so many high places. If you are wishing to get THINGS done then it would help if there was a sympathetic ear in the RIGHT place, surely.

I think that this is where a lot of this paranoia regarding the Masons stems from. In this rather cynical world in which we all live now (unfortunately) people don't believe that other people will do things for the good of others anymore. If everybody thought of the Masons as a 'back scratching' club and that Masons were only out to better themselves, most people wouldn't give it a second thought.

I also think that it says more about what a sorry world we live in now than anything else.

Kyu