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NEWS: Friend or Foe? What Russians think of Americans

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posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 12:52 AM
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Muadib,

In 1860-1865, the civil war years, there was no such thing as the USSR. It was imperial Russia. And of course they aided us for their own reasons. I hate to break it to you, but we, like every country on this planet, have only aided others when our interests were at stake. No nation, not ours, not any other, has acted altruistically, and thus, if something beneficial was gained through an action, that was only a fringe benefit. We benefitted from Russia's actions. And when we gave money to Russia, it wasn't out of the kindness of our hearts, it was to keep them from selling their arsenal off into questionable hands. Not because we really gave two #s about their well being. It was self interest, something that all nations engage in, ours included.

Lets talk about more recent events, tho, as far as country abuses are concerned. You act like it was only in history that the government did its reprehensible things. You couldn't be more wrong. Do you really think that they have stopped using people as lab rats?

You seem to forget Desert Storm Syndrome.

www.gulfweb.org...

I personally know quite a few people who suffer from it. I also know the US government was making the soldiers take pills and vaccines that werent even field tested on humans, let alone FDA approved. And of course, there is the depleted uranium issue.

It is dangerously naive to think that the government has any more regard for human health and life than they did 50 years ago. Remeber, 50 years ago no one knew or believed that the government was conducting such atrocities, because they were welll hidden. I guarantee you they are still conducting experiments or exposing people to substances or energies, and give it about 20 years, we will see the results. It seems like everyday some new info is declassified and confirms earlier rumors of secret and nefarious activities. It has not stopped. It will not stop.

The Russians are fighting many small wars with their little enemies here and there, but really, they arent doing anything in Chechnya that we arent doing in Iraq. We are both very similar there too.

I could care less about France, China, ect. Were discussing Russia/ America, and I am making the point that both Russia and America are very similar in many ways. Communism vs Democracy., those are superficial differences. The deeper similarities are there for anyone to see.




posted on Jun, 5 2005 @ 07:41 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Well, I guess i have more reasons for being what you call a Communistphobe, that's the right word you are looking for..., since i was born in a communsit country and still have family there, so I am familiar with the communists tactics, you on the otherhand Subz are an "Americanophobe" for no reason at all.

No reason at all, aww come on. I didnt infer you had no reason at all to be a "russophobe" did I? Play fair now.


ExD

posted on Jun, 6 2005 @ 06:14 AM
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Mu
You must be new around here, if you were not you will know that i have given a lot of evidence to back up what I said.

I read this forum quite long, but post rarely, all your "evidences" based on your conclusions that usually ill-defined, ok, let's see your post when you tried to provide some examples of "propaganda".



I will give you one of the many examples of anti-american propaganda provided by your government.

We know that your government was against the US going to war with Iraq, and we found one of the reasons why they didn't want this war. Russian officials were benefitting from the sanctions in Iraq, and were selling banned materials and weaponry which was against the agreements set forth by the UN. But it doesn't end there.

No doubt that Russian companies has interests in Iraq, but who are this russian officials who profited? I heard about Zhirinovsky on so called Oil for Food scandal(even if he profited, he never played sugnificant role in russian goverment, moreover he was never part of it). Where is the main profiter Haliburton who made 8.8 billion dollars from contracts with Saddam. This company doesn't even presented in this circus, oh let me think with whom this company associated... Cheyney. So, US officials were benefitting from the sanctions in Iraq, and now they benefit even more, because all oil(and not only oil) contracts were given to US companies.

And what banned materials and weaponry we sell them? Any sources? Any proofs?

Now what do we have next, yeah, Putin statements that you consider as anti-american propaganda, it seems that you interpret all his statements as anti-american propaganda? yeah, you continue to impress me.

As for your quotes from various sources, if you read them carefully you will see that terrorist acts are prepairing by Saddam regime, not international terrorists, and he have no links to them. US justified intervention by statements that Saddam has WMD, but inspectors didn't found them, US break UN decision, the institute that mainly created to prevent wars, and do that just for it's greed. And now what we see in Iraq, terrorists flooded the country and day by day they get more support from Iraqis, because US illegally occupied country, even with Saddam regime they had water, electricity and gasoline, now nothing.



So, no anti-US propaganda by the Russian government?

No, where is this propaganda? In Putin's statements, or in the fact that Russia didn't support this war?




We have also covered in these forums what has been happening to oposition leaders of the Kremlim and Putin in Russia and some of it's former states, for example, the poisoning of Yushenko.

And what? You claim that Kremlin did this? Yeah, any proofs? Oh, no, it's another portion of your ill-defined conclusions. Yushenko said that he knows who poisoned him and he doesn't named someone from Russia. He was poisoned in the West Ukraine, which is more pro-western, I think it was someone from his company, but it's only my thoughts.

And what happening to oposition leaders of the Kremlin? What oposition leaders?

Last time I checked, after this "revolutions" in Ukraine died 3 high officials, and one of them after "suicide"(two shots in a head) leave a note that it's fault of old government, that's why he did this, yeah, very fair, and using this note, new government start process against old president. So, it's clearly who benefited from this situation, and certainly not Kremlin. And what about Georgian prime-minister, oh, he was a pro-russian, and now he is killed, and who benefited from this, maybe you guess by yourself? It seems that installed governments have very distant respect to human life.

I didn't read about journalists, I have no time now, but probably nothing new, how many journalists died in US during Bush term? I doubt that zero, is it a Bush fault?



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 04:10 PM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
.........
I could care less about France, China, ect. Were discussing Russia/ America, and I am making the point that both Russia and America are very similar in many ways. Communism vs Democracy., those are superficial differences. The deeper similarities are there for anyone to see.


Skadi, what I see in here is that you cannot see that meanwhile there have been some people in the US military, and that were part of the US government, who have done hienous deeds against americans, it is not what the US is about. It is true that you will find sob everywhere, even in the military. I am sure you have dealt with them just as i did.

There are people who would use their powers for selfish reasons, because their own delluded reasons.

The difference between the US and Russia is that in Russia, this can happen and those responsible will not be found out, and nothing will be done about it.

In the US, as one of those links you provided, it was one US official who provided many of the evidence that there were experiments done with US civilians/military.

The US government is a complex system, and not everyone knows what one agency or another, or what a group of individuals are doing, but sooner or later, it is found and something is done about it.

You obviously still don't want to realize the differences between the US and Russia. Even today there is no real freedom of the press in Russia, as everything is once more controlled by the government. Please do not tell me the same delluded notion that some members keep trying to say that all the US media is controlled by the govenrment....because it is a lie, and we can see it by what many of the media outlets print.

Communism vs Capitalism/Democracy are not superficial differences....those are the values that have differentiated both countries for a long time.

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 05:27 PM
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Welcome back Muaddib, been quiet around here without you



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 07:55 PM
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We think that Americans are good people, but sometimes you need to calm them down.



posted on Jun, 14 2005 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by ExD

I read this forum quite long, but post rarely, all your "evidences" based on your conclusions that usually ill-defined, ok, let's see your post when you tried to provide some examples of "propaganda".


i am the only one supplying excerpts and links which verify what I say...I don't see you doing the same...


Originally posted by ExD
No doubt that Russian companies has interests in Iraq, but who are this russian officials who profited? I heard about Zhirinovsky on so called Oil for Food scandal(even if he profited, he never played sugnificant role in russian goverment, moreover he was never part of it). Where is the main profiter Haliburton who made 8.8 billion dollars from contracts with Saddam. This company doesn't even presented in this circus, oh let me think with whom this company associated... Cheyney. So, US officials were benefitting from the sanctions in Iraq, and now they benefit even more, because all oil(and not only oil) contracts were given to US companies.

And what banned materials and weaponry we sell them? Any sources? Any proofs?


First off, the Russian companies were selling banned materials and banned military technology to Saddam, while the US wasn't, but let's take this one step at a time.

Here is some proof as to what Russia was doing.


Smuggling by Air

A former Iraqi diplomat described how several times per month Iraqi diplomatic personnel would smuggle large quantities of money and prohibited equipment from Russia to Iraq. From 2001 until the fall of Baghdad, goods were smuggled out of Russia by Iraqi Embassy personnel. Equipment smuggled by this method included high-technology items such as radar jammers, GPS jammers, night-vision devices, avionics, and missile components of various types. A charter flight flew from Moscow to Baghdad every Monday, with a return flight on Wednesday. The flight was not inspected by the UN and was used to smuggle cash and other goods, which Iraq was not allowed to procure under UN sanctions, into Baghdad. Cash and equipment were smuggled two or three times a month by diplomatic courier, usually disguised as diplomatic mail. Bribes were paid to Russian customs officials to facilitate these illicit shipments.

A former Iraqi MFA employee who worked as a diplomatic courier and had direct access to information reports that the Iraqi ambassador to Russia personally delivered GPS jammers to the Iraqi Embassy in Damascus during April 2003. The ambassador used a private jet for transport, with the GPS jammers concealed as diplomatic mail. The jammers were transferred to Al Qaim border checkpoint.


Excerpted from.
www.cia.gov...

As to your comment on Halliburton, my guess is that you are talking about their two subsidiaries, Dresser-Rand and Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co.....these companies sold water and sewage treatment pumps, plus spare parts for oil facilities and pipeline eqipment...all of which was in accordance with the UN sanctions... which is a far cry from what the Russians were selling and was banned by the UN.

BTW, what they actually earned throught these legal deals was $73 million, not $8.8 billion...



Originally posted by ExD
Now what do we have next, yeah, Putin statements that you consider as anti-american propaganda, it seems that you interpret all his statements as anti-american propaganda? yeah, you continue to impress me.

As for your quotes from various sources, if you read them carefully you will see that terrorist acts are prepairing by Saddam regime, not international terrorists, and he have no links to them.


Humm, let's just think for a moment here.....

In the one hand Russian officials and Putin himself have been proclaiming to the world that the US had no reason for going to war with Saddam's regime...on the other hand, he was supplying evidence for years through their own intelligence services that Saddam was planning on making terrorist attacks in the US. BTW, Saddam was paying the families of suicide bombers for killing jewish and American people...he was providing money to terrorists and supporting their actions even against the US. This has already been discussed and several times other members and i have proivided evidence to this..i am not going to go over this again since that topic is not part of this thread.



Originally posted by ExD
US justified intervention by statements that Saddam has WMD, but inspectors didn't found them, US break UN decision, the institute that mainly created to prevent wars, and do that just for it's greed.


Amazing....if you have been around as long as you claim, i guess you haven't been reading well the reports....

The coalition has not found stockpiles of wmd, the coalition did find many things which were banned and were part of a wmd program, including tons of documents dealing with wmd, banned missiles, missiles parts, banned missiles which sole purpose is to contain chemical weapons, discrepancies in the HMX explosives which are also use in the detonation of nuclear bombs, centrifuges which Iraqi scientists were told to bury until the westerners left and the sanctions were lifted, etc, etc, etc, plus the missiles which Saddam/Iraq was not supposed to have and which they fired upon coalition forces in Kuwait...and not to mention the times in which Iraqi forces under the command of Saddam fired upon American aircraft who were enforcing and securing the no-fly zone....which as another member said a while ago, is in itself a declaration of war against the US.



Originally posted by ExD
And now what we see in Iraq, terrorists flooded the country and day by day they get more support from Iraqis, because US illegally occupied country, even with Saddam regime they had water, electricity and gasoline, now nothing.


Not really... we have seen in these same forums how Iraqi civilians have taken arms against insurgents that were going to attack them... we have seen how insurgents have been trying to stop the voting process in Iraq and have systematically been killing more Iraqi civilians than coalition forces or iraqi military or police officers.

We have also seen the majority of the people in Iraq free from the terrorist reign of Saddam, the same majority which is not mentioned, for some unkown reason, by many media outlets and which are most of the people that live in Iraq, to the north and to the south.


Originally posted by ExD
No, where is this propaganda? In Putin's statements, or in the fact that Russia didn't support this war?


Already explained it above.... in the one handPutin says there is no reason for the US to oust Saddam regime and they claim this to the world, on the other hand Putin and the Russian intelligence officials give the US government evidence for years that SAddam was planning on making terrorist attacks on US soil.



Originally posted by ExD
And what? You claim that Kremlin did this? Yeah, any proofs? Oh, no, it's another portion of your ill-defined conclusions. Yushenko said that he knows who poisoned him and he doesn't named someone from Russia. He was poisoned in the West Ukraine, which is more pro-western, I think it was someone from his company, but it's only my thoughts.


The only person that would have gained by Yushenko dying was his opponent which is/was backed by Putin/kremlin.


Originally posted by ExD
And what happening to oposition leaders of the Kremlin? What oposition leaders?

Last time I checked, after this "revolutions" in Ukraine died 3 high officials, and one of them after "suicide"(two shots in a head) leave a note that it's fault of old government, that's why he did this, yeah, very fair, and using this note, new government start process against old president.


According to another Russian citizen who has posted in these same forums that official was pro-american and he was in favor of an oil pipeline deal with the US which the Russian government didn't want.



Originally posted by ExD
So, it's clearly who benefited from this situation, and certainly not Kremlin. And what about Georgian prime-minister, oh, he was a pro-russian, and now he is killed, and who benefited from this, maybe you guess by yourself? It seems that installed governments have very distant respect to human life.


What in the world?....you are trying to distort the facts again?...

The former Gerogian prime minister was pro-American...not pro-Russian....


The prime minister of Georgia, Zurab Zhvania, was found dead in an apartment in Tbilisi early yesterday, apparently poisoned by carbon monoxide from a faulty gas heater.
........................
Mr Zhvania, 41, played an important role in the "rose revolution" in November 2003 that ousted the former Soviet stalwart Eduard Shevardnadze as president and led to the pro-American presidency of Mikhail Saakashvili.


Excerpted from.
www.guardian.co.uk...

This man was pro-american...not pro-Russian...so i guess we now know who really benefitted from his death....



Originally posted by ExD
I didn't read about journalists, I have no time now, but probably nothing new, how many journalists died in US during Bush term? I doubt that zero, is it a Bush fault?


You are responding to something you did not read about... and btw, in the US the government does not kill or imprisons people for talking against the government, they are imprisoned if they break the law.

[edit on 14-6-2005 by Muaddib]



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