The original US ABM systems (safeguard)

Originally posted by StellarXTo some degree but mainly the fact that the US chose to intervene as if this country was a threat to them. IT was naked self interest and nothing all to do with Communism.

Naked self interest to rid a small island nation of it's communist invaders? We need more such naked self interest in the world then.

I'll only pose two questions here; 1) If this was an internal affair of the people of Grenada, why were our marines capturing Cubans there?

Probably there to help fitht off the invaders? Since when may countries no help each other ward off agression? I guess you must be assuming that that Evil Cubans set it all up to make America look bad or something?

Apparently it's only a problem to throw off or fight someone's invaders if it's the US doing it.

I have no idea but why were American troops there to advance on Cuban positions? Where these Cuban positions not allowed by the current government?

You mean the puppet they'd just installed?

Might I suggest "Ragged War" by Leroy Thompson. It is not about the invasion of Grenada specificly, but that invasion is mentioned along with surrounding events.

Thanks and since i am really ignorant and dont know what the hell is going on i guess this book will cure me; right?

well, the insults in this case are self inflicted, so don't pin the attack on me. It is actually quite a good book covering the history, developement, and modern methods of fighting gurrila wars, and counter insurgency campaigns.

Next on the list, Korea. (to eventually be followed with Nicuragua, Afganistan, and perhaps a few others, but for now, Korea)

What about Korea? South Korea attacked North Korea and when they were beaten back they cried for help and help arrived. Just another case of American allies ( they tend to pick them) being dictators of note who do as they please and drag America into their mess. Why the American government always choose to sponsor the "wrong"( brutal/mass murdering0 side is something worth investigation.

Stellar

You've made a few factual mistakes there.
-North Korea invaded South Korea,
-The US had actually gone out of it's way to prevent the South Korean president from starting such a war, even going so far as to make sure they didn't have the weapons to start it.
-The South Korean President was not as you say, a dictator.
-It was the United Nations, not the US that cast the vote and made the decision to go to thier aid.

It's also worth mentioning that the Korean people rejoiced when thier villages would be freed by advancing allied troops, and despaired whenever those same allied troops were forced into retreat. Were the South Korean President such a brutal dictator as you would have us believe, the people would be happy to be rid of his yoke, not the other way around.

On to Afganistan then...

[edit on 11-2-2006 by Travellar]

Originally posted by Travellar
Naked self interest to rid a small island nation of it's communist invaders? We need more such naked self interest in the world then.

Communist invaders? Where? If you let people in it's probably not a invasion.

Apparently it's only a problem to throw off or fight someone's invaders if it's the US doing it.

No they were not invaders. The only invaders were the US and even the UN managed to agre on that score.

You mean the puppet they'd just installed?

Evidence for that claim?

well, the insults in this case are self inflicted, so don't pin the attack on me. It is actually quite a good book covering the history, developement, and modern methods of fighting gurrila wars, and counter insurgency campaigns.

If the author managed to call the US anything other than illegal invaders then his lying.

You've made a few factual mistakes there.
-North Korea invaded South Korea,

Nope the South Attacked first and penetrated a few Km into North Korea. They were still there on the next day when the Nortk Korean counter attack all along the front drove back South Korean forces everwher.

-The US had actually gone out of it's way to prevent the South Korean president from starting such a war, even going so far as to make sure they didn't have the weapons to start it.

Because they feared he would start a war to keep his US backers stringed along. He openly threatened to do so and it was no surprise when he eventually did.

-The South Korean President was not as you say, a dictator.

He was that and the brutal mass murdering type at that. He had so many South Koreans killed in his first few years that you have to wonder why they even put up with him.

-It was the United Nations, not the US that cast the vote and made the decision to go to thier aid.

Nonsense. Go study your history.

It's also worth mentioning that the Korean people rejoiced when thier villages would be freed by advancing allied troops, and despaired whenever those same allied troops were forced into retreat.

The type of propaganda i can't believe anyone would repeat without a gun to his head.

Were the South Korean President such a brutal dictator as you would have us believe, the people would be happy to be rid of his yoke, not the other way around.

If you knew any more than you did you would know that they were.

On to Afganistan then...

We are far from done here. You have much to learn so get comfy.

Stellar

Originally posted by Sandman11
I would say you have that exactly backwards. Psychologists call it "projection".

Look their simply bad sources and it's not very simple to prove that.

In June 1992 Russian President Boris Yeltsin in an address to the US House of Representatives declared;

Thus the Cold war ended. The USSR no longer exists. We won. And it appears President Yeltsin was aware of the brutality of the Soviet system.

No one WON as the USSR did not LOSE. If you dont understand even that much you have no business even talking about this topic. It is brutality to kill even one person and the USSR's actions did kill untold millions. That being said it is not admitting to much as the actions of the US had exactly the same results.

And now you say it is South Korea that is the brutal government of the two Korea's? I am speachless.

In the timeframe of the war and just before yeah that is what i am saying as it's the truth. You may be speechless but that's not all you are.

Stellar

Originally posted by StellarX

-It was the United Nations, not the US that cast the vote and made the decision to go to thier aid.

Nonsense. Go study your history.

www.trumanlibrary.org...

After you.

Originally posted by StellarX

Look their simply bad sources and it's not very simple to prove that.

I think it more likely the Cold War communistic propaganda you have swallowed have the most questionable sources of all. They were made up by self admitted liars, but you still buy it all.

No one WON as the USSR did not LOSE. If you dont understand even that much you have no business even talking about this topic.

Oh that StellarX arrogance gets old. Well your highness, I know we are all just stupid subjects but I think it is you who doesn't know what you are talking about. The USSR doesn't exist. That is because it LOST. What is left in Russias military is in decline and disarray. It's expansionistic foreign policy has ended and left puppet states in chaos without funding. It's economy has dumped, and still is in recovery, if even that. It's airforce has no new aircraft, it's navy can only hope for a few Frigates to replace the massive fleet it once was and is now sinking pierside. What, have you been asleep for the last 20 years? The Cold War was between two diametrically opposed and incompatable economic theories. It was a battle to the end for one, and only one still exists in it's original form, and Russia is adapting to the world reality it finds itself in. It is only because of the left over nuclear weapons that there was not a more total end with international trials for the atrocities of the Soviet Union.

In the timeframe of the war and just before yeah that is what i am saying as it's the truth.

I suppose you will be moving to North Korea over South Korea then huh? I don't think you know anything about Korea, or the Korean war. Otherwise as Traveler has documented, you would know the North invaded the South first. I have given you way too much credit. You probably believe Potemkin Village was real as well, don't you?

You may be speechless but that's not all you are.

Stellar

I am sure your personality serves you well as a sure fire form of birth control, along with the pepper spray that is sprayed at you, but I don't have any interest in discussing anything with someone as you. I am considering pushing that "ignore" button, and would encourage everyone else who is tired of your insolence to do the same.

Sandman












[edit on 11-2-2006 by Sandman11]

Originally posted by Sandman11I suppose you will be moving to North Korea over South Korea then huh? I don't think you know anything about Korea, or the Korean war. [edit on 11-2-2006 by Sandman11]

ooh, look! a map!
I should hope he'd move there. Any student of Geography should quickly be able to identify why that would decrease his posting. (Hint, it has to do with electricity)

Well yes the North did invade the South, on the other hand the South was a military dictatorship up until fairly recently, and not a terribly pleasant one. Ever hear of the Kwangju massacre? South Korea's own Tianamen Square you might say, where pro democracy protestors, numbering somewhere between 500 and 2,000, were slaughtered by South Korean tanks and infantry.

Still, the South never even approached the kind of totalitarianism seen in the North to this day. North Korea is probably the most repressive regime on the planet, and has been for decades.

Originally posted by Sandman11
I would say you have that exactly backwards. Psychologists call it "projection".

Look their simply bad sources and it's not very HARD to prove that.

Stellar

Originally posted by Travellar
www.trumanlibrary.org...
After you.

Korea 1945-1953
After World War II, Korea was arbitrarily divided into North and South by the U.S. and the Soviet Union along the 38th parallel. One Korea eventually was the aim. All along the 38th parallel witnessed intermittent hostilities, increasing during 1949 and early 1950 into a virtual civil war. South Korea's Syngman Rhee attacked North Korea on June 23, 1950, and quickly captured Haeju, but the Truman administration, declaring North Korea the aggressor, pushed a resolution through the Security Council naming North Korea the aggressor, which Truman then used to send troops, without asking Congress for a declaration of war and in violation of the Constitution. The Korean War was not an international war (and therefore not covered by the UN Charter) but a civil war intervened in by U.S. leaders out of fanatical anti-communist, Sovietphobic prejudice. Every related agency of the government was engaged to convince the public that the war originated in the Kremlin by the "international communist conspiracy," despite the absence of evidence. The government drummed up fear, loathing, and patriotic righteousness, until the public caught the fever, until 75% supported sending troops. The Cold War and permanent militarization shifted into high gear now, with Truman ordering the 7th Fleet to defend Formosa and increasing aid to the French colonialists in Indochina, leading to the U.S. phase of the Vietnam War (Quigley, Chs. 3, 4, 5).

www.omnicenter.org...

It's a good summary but for more detail.

www.monthlyreview.org...

Stellar

Originally posted by Sandman11
I think it more likely the Cold War communistic propaganda you have swallowed have the most questionable sources of all. They were made up by self admitted liars, but you still buy it all.

I use Western writers as primary sources and they ( Chomsky, Blum) use Western newspapers and governt sources to make their points. There really is no basis for accusing me of this beside the fact that you must call other people names now that you have run out of even marginally logical things to say.

Oh that StellarX arrogance gets old. Well your highness, I know we are all just stupid subjects but I think it is you who doesn't know what you are talking about.

I am well informed ( on some topics) and not arrogant as such. I make a point of admitting my ignorance and it's honestly not my fault if you happen to be even more so. Blame someone else please?

The USSR doesn't exist. That is because it LOST.

The USSR wanted to reform for a long time and only US pressure kept the reformers in marginalised. US actions in the late 70's and 80's did nothing but prolong the "survival" of the USSR in the form it was in then. When it eventually did decided to reform things got out of hand which led people to assume that the empire collapsed instead of just changing form. It's a easy mistake to make if you are ignorant of that part of history.

What is left in Russias military is in decline and disarray. It's expansionistic foreign policy has ended and left puppet states in chaos without funding.

Expansionist foreign policy? Please indicate exactly when it expanded to where and provide proof that it was motivated by expansionist policies and not strategic survival to stave off US and NATO aggression.

It's economy has dumped, and still is in recovery, if even that.

Saying such a blatantly false thing just proves your running on pure bias with not a fact in evidence or even in sight.

It's airforce has no new aircraft, it's navy can only hope for a few Frigates to replace the massive fleet it once was and is now sinking pierside.

It's air force does have new aircraft even if not as many of them. I do however have it on good evidence that they wont be needing conventional aircraft to win their next war. They build them mostly for export and to keep up the pretense of still being a conventional power. What replaced the air force has also mostly replaced their navy and they invest mainly in submarines and then of the strategic missile kind.

What, have you been asleep for the last 20 years? The Cold War was between two diametrically opposed and incompatable economic theories.

I have been awake for abit longer than that. Both economic theories exploit people for the benefit of the state. Their hardly that different if you cared to check .

It was a battle to the end for one, and only one still exists in it's original form, and Russia is adapting to the world reality it finds itself in.

Well the USSR did change form as it no longer needed to be burdened by so many satellite states draining it of it's power and making it more vulnerable strategically. Russia have in fact adapted and it's high time the USA follows suit imo.

It is only because of the left over nuclear weapons that there was not a more total end with international trials for the atrocities of the Soviet Union.

Well funny how they made sure all those missiles were still mostly aimed at the right places during this time. The world has plenty of war criminals and i hope the Russian one's will one day stand next to their US counterparts to accept their due punishment.

I suppose you will be moving to North Korea over South Korea then huh? I don't think you know anything about Korea, or the Korean war.

Well once again i probably do not know much but clearly more than you. Lucky for me that your even more ignorant than i am then.

Otherwise as Traveler has documented, you would know the North invaded the South first. I have given you way too much credit. You probably believe Potemkin Village was real as well, don't you?

Well if you think of him as a ally i suggest higher standards as your soon going to be all alone again. You never gave me any credit and i , being the silly hopeful fool that i am, have given you far more than you ever began to deserve.

I am sure your personality serves you well as a sure fire form of birth control, along with the pepper spray that is sprayed at you, but I don't have any interest in discussing anything with someone as you.

I am glad your finally realising how spamming with lies and worse will never discourage me from stating my points and providing everyone with my source material. You never had a chance and i am sorry that you thought yourself capable of a adult discussion your clearly unprepared for. I suggest a few years of maturing before you again attempt to spread your cold war lies and falsehoods.

I am considering pushing that "ignore" button, and would encourage everyone else who is tired of your insolence to do the same.

I would respect your choice to do that and would in fact encourage everyone who hates facts and adult discussion to do the same. It would be great for my general health if i did not have to stoop so low so often just to waste time on narrow minded bigots.

The reason i can say that is because i know how easily i have changed my mind in the past, given new evidence and understanding of history and current events, and how much effort i go to make sure i can do so again in the future.

Now go find the ignore button and release yourself from the suffering that having your ideas challenged generally causes in people of your narrow-minded kind.

Stellar

Originally posted by xmotex
Well yes the North did invade the South, on the other hand the South was a military dictatorship up until fairly recently, and not a terribly pleasant one. Ever hear of the Kwangju massacre? South Korea's own Tianamen Square you might say, where pro democracy protestors, numbering somewhere between 500 and 2,000, were slaughtered by South Korean tanks and infantry.

Still, the South never even approached the kind of totalitarianism seen in the North to this day. North Korea is probably the most repressive regime on the planet, and has been for decades.

Without a doubt. You have a good grasp on Korean history in that it wasn't all roses in the South, but it was better than the North. I will maintain that economic prosperity follows freedom, and the contrast here is so dramatic it is without any question the preferable economic theory resides south of the 38th parallel.
My father, a WW2 vet, had a Korean friend who escaped from the North. He was to be executed. He was on a hill, hands tied behind his back, kneeling, and the bullet missed his head somehow. He rolled down the hill, into the river and escaped with his life. He went on to become a very good surgeon in the US.


[edit on 13-2-2006 by Sandman11]

i hope that new readers can actually visit the link in the original post and see what was achieved , in defence - even if it was only operational for a very short time.

been a good few years - and im sure man many people have never ever heard of this - yes the USA had an operational ABM system - but unlike the russian system which protected people - the US protected nuclear missiles.