Bush, at end of roll, denies abuses, claims america promotes "freedom"

Originally posted by boogyman
I dont get you on one hand you say that America is more secure through the actions of GWB on the other you bring up this weird conspiracy where the Russians stole iraqs WMDs and GWB is too scared to bring it up with Putin. Which is it? Are we safer or are we not? You can't have it both ways.

You don't get it because you are not reading the links i am providing.

We are safer from Al Qaeda, because a blow was given to them, one which will be very hard for them to surpass. We are safer by actually going after Islamic extremists, instead of staying at home and waiting for more terrorist attacks like Clinton did.

BTW, President Bush actually confronted president Putin if you would read the links i am giving, but Putin kept claming this was not true and even tried to dismiss this by smokescreening the facts saying that he is also fighting the war on terror and assured president Bush that he is an ally on this war.

We don't start wars out of the blue...it took us 11 years to go to war with Iraq again, when we kept getting information, time and again, that they were breaching the agreements set forth by the UN and US and were buying banned military technology, banned materials and wmd.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by Muaddib]

A concentration camp is not neccesarily a nazi death camp. A concentration camp is a camp where percieved political enemies of the state are "concentrated" get it concentration camp? If you dont consider gitmo as an example of a camp where a concentration of percieved political enemies are kept then I dont know what is.

Originally posted by Muaddib
when we kept getting information, time and again, that they were breaching the agreements set forth by the UN and US and were buying banned military technology, banned materials and wmd.

You are making a fool of yourself, and your country when you attempt to say things like this... Where is all your evidence?

Oh yeah, thats right, it was them damn aluminium tubes -

Muaddib, I understand that you were in the military? (correct me if I'm wrong) ... So maybe thats why you are finding it hard to dis-associate yourself from your government - and realise that they lied to their entire country, and the rest of the world...

Originally posted by boogyman
A concentration camp is not neccesarily a nazi death camp. A concentration camp is a camp where percieved political enemies of the state are "concentrated" get it concentration camp? If you dont consider gitmo as an example of a camp where a concentration of percieved political enemies are kept then I dont know what is.

It is a prison...get it?...

Maybe you don't understand the concept of a prison where enemy combatants are being held.

Are all Muslims including moderates in the US in concentration camps?...

No, but some of those Islamic extremists that were caught fighting as insurgents are there.

I read your link it mentioned Bush confronting Putin on the sale of night vision goggles antitank missiles and GPS jammers nothing about the sale of weapons of mass destruction or the withdrawal of weapons of mass destruction. By the way my statement that going against the will of the UN to enforce the will of the UN doesnt really make sense still stands.

I see so Im wrong in my definition of concentration camp perhaps you could help me out by defining it for me then. Let me warn you though that Websters agrees with me on this one.

Originally posted by ghostsoldier

You are making a fool of yourself, and your country when you attempt to say things like this... Where is all your evidence?

Been giving evidence all over these boards...and who is making a fool of themselves is you, by claming that your marxist, leninist, or even "socialist revolutionary" buddies just want what's best for the people... when in fact you are the ones that have brought more mass murders and suffering to the people.

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
Oh yeah, thats right, it was them damn aluminium tubes

-

Muaddib, I understand that you were in the military? (correct me if I'm wrong) ... So maybe thats why you are finding it hard to dis-associate yourself from your government - and realise that they lied to their entire country, and the rest of the world...

Yes, I was in the military, but if i continue to defend my point it is because
I actually take my time and look at all the evidence, and understand that you are being sold a lie by many of the liberal media, and your "socialist revolutionay" buddies which you are buying time and again, while you watch and read everything they send you from your couch, and believe all that crap which they sold to the world so many times before, and are trying to sell it again....

It is a shame but it seem some people are buying all that crap again.... I guess people don't learn from past mistakes.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by boogyman
A concentration camp is not neccesarily a nazi death camp. A concentration camp is a camp where percieved political enemies of the state are "concentrated" get it concentration camp? If you dont consider gitmo as an example of a camp where a concentration of percieved political enemies are kept then I dont know what is.

It is a prison...get it?...

Maybe you don't understand the concept of a prison where enemy combatants are being held.

Are all Muslims including moderates in the US in concentration camps?...

No, but some of those Islamic extremists that were caught fighting as insurgents are there.

A "prison" is a "legal detention facility". Guantanamo is illegal, be it under international law, the US constitution or Cuban law.

So Guantanamo is not a prison.

It is a camp, where detainees are submitted to treatments that fall under the international definition of torture.

Then it conforms to the factual definition of Gulag.

The US definitions on the subject are probably conflicting, but let's imagine for a second that administration officials would not claim torture or human rights abuses if the same treatment was inflicted unto them. Let's imagine they would claim they were subjected to it "disturbing but necessary and eye-opening hardships".

Then it conforms to the official definition of Gulag.


Choose.


[edit on 1-6-2005 by Moretti]

Been giving evidence all over these boards...and who is making a fool of themselves is you, by claming that your marxist, leninist, or even "socialist revolutionary" buddies just want what's best for the people... when in fact you are the ones that have brought more mass murders and suffering to the people.

Right you just keep on telling yourself that despite all the despots we've supported and legitimate elections we've overturned during our fight against communism. The cure was worse then the disease. The only person here making a fool of themselves is you.

if Osama bin Laden is tortured for information would u defend him, saying he had the right to destroy Budda statues, targeting Shiites, targeting Christians, funding groups who target elementary schools etc. if he was at Guatanamo Bay, u be like noooo im goin to save him from that terrible place where the government gives out Koran books and blankets etc.

Originally posted by deltaboy
if Osama bin Laden is tortured for information would u defend him, saying he had the right to destroy Budda statues, targeting Shiites, targeting Christians, funding groups who target elementary schools etc. if he was at Guatanamo Bay, u be like noooo im goin to save him from that terrible place where the government gives out Koran books and blankets etc.

I think you are beginning to grasp the problem : torture does not lead to intelligence (else Osama would have been caught two years ago). It's very unique goal is humiliation of the adversary (as experienced by american prisoners in Vietnam).

Originally posted by Moretti

I think you are beginning to grasp the problem : torture does not lead to intelligence (else Osama would have been caught two years ago). It's very unique goal is humiliation of the adversary (as experienced by american prisoners in Vietnam).

so wat if i humiliate Osama, i have no regrets of that. and the reason Osama wasnt caught cause he isolated himself to few people and others dont know where he is thats why we havent caught him, and u be surprise wat terrorists we have caught. it depends on wat techniques u use on each individual, i agree with u on some respects that torture does not solve everything but it solves some. thats how the Pakis manage to catch many terrorists in that region, Osama knows he trusts few people and reveals himself even less to media.

[edit on 1-6-2005 by deltaboy]

Originally posted by Boatphone
Please list a country that has spread more freedoms around the world than the U.S. / Or list a country that is more "free".

Also, keep in mind that the terrorists in "Gitmo" hate freedom more than anyone so maybe their happy there.

You're kidding right? both statements...

Boatphone:

Please list a country that has spread more freedoms around the world than the U.S. / Or list a country that is more "free".

Are you free to smoke pot? Free to call hookers? Free to bounce a cheque? Free to travel anywhere in the world?

No to all. Move to the Netherlands, they're far more free than you.

The USA is the country with the MOST OF IT'S OWN CITIZENS IN PRISON in the WORLD. More than China, more than Russia.

Is that because you're less free (with restrictions to your freedom) or because Americans are just more violent than most other people?


As to Guantanomo, it is an illegal prison. How many people have been tried and convicted in Gitmo? How many people have been even ACCUSED of a crime in any official capacity? How many people have been beaten to death (3 at last count)?

If you are American and you figure Guantanomo is a fine thing, then you don't deserve one single freedom that is afforded to you in the United States, and either you're an ignorant fool or an evil person.


jako

Originally posted by Jakomo

Is that because you're less free (with restrictions to your freedom) or because Americans are just more violent than most other people?


As to Guantanomo, it is an illegal prison. How many people have been tried and convicted in Gitmo? How many people have been even ACCUSED of a crime in any official capacity? How many people have been beaten to death (3 at last count)?

If you are American and you figure Guantanomo is a fine thing, then you don't deserve one single freedom that is afforded to you in the United States, and either you're an ignorant fool or an evil person.


jako

i feel kinda free i dink....i mean i can get to school without the CIA from arresting me because i have no intention of killing innocent people. people around me seem to be free, they aint feeling like they wanna go kill anione who threatens their freedom. i can drive to the movies or go shopping i dink i feel free. i can read my newspaper and feel free to read wat the newspaper says.

unless u talkin about the freedom to rape and kill. then i aint after that type of freedom.

deltaboy:

i feel kinda free i dink....i mean i can get to school without the CIA from arresting me because i have no intention of killing innocent people. people around me seem to be free, they aint feeling like they wanna go kill anione who threatens their freedom. i can drive to the movies or go shopping i dink i feel free. i can read my newspaper and feel free to read wat the newspaper says.

No I'm not talking about the freedom to rape and pillage, haha. I'm talking about basic human rights that your government does not afford you.

Are you free to marry another man if you're a man? Are you free to decide for yourself if you are a pregnant woman that you want to have an abortion? Are you free to unplug the machine that is keeping your wife pathetically alive after 15 years?

The main thing you might want to look at is how many freedoms do you automatically forfeit when, say, you're not white. Because those ones certainly add up, if they're officially on the books or not...

Canada is "freer" than the USA. So is the Netherlands. Belgium. Finland. Spain. The list goes on.

You have a great illusion of freedom (thanks Hollywood) but when you really look at what your freedoms are, they're based on the majority's ideas of morality.

Isn't sodomy still illegal in a bunch of states? If I want to go down on my wife the government says I can't?

Doesn't sound entirely free to me.

jako

Its funny because the North Koreans believe they're the most free country world too doesnt make it so. Its only through comparison with other countries that the truth can be found.

Originally posted by Jakomo

Are you free to marry another man if you're a man? Are you free to decide for yourself if you are a pregnant woman that you want to have an abortion? Are you free to unplug the machine that is keeping your wife pathetically alive after 15 years?

The main thing you might want to look at is how many freedoms do you automatically forfeit when, say, you're not white. Because those ones certainly add up, if they're officially on the books or not...

Canada is "freer" than the USA. So is the Netherlands. Belgium. Finland. Spain. The list goes on.

You have a great illusion of freedom (thanks Hollywood) but when you really look at what your freedoms are, they're based on the majority's ideas of morality.



jako

hmmm i wonder if yer mother felt like aborting u, if she felt like it, u be like yaaay mommy go abortion, u have the right to kill me because its the smell of freedom.

also u dont need to be white to be free, Colin Powell aint white but hes a politician, i wonder why America allow such abdomination, or Condi Rice i wonder why we let even a black female to do dat.

This is the last reply I will make in one of these topics since I get sick and tired of the neo-con party line "We're spreading Freedom and Democracy". Do you really want to know who has been the biggest supporter of terrorism over the last 45 years? YOu guessed it the GOOD OL' US OF A. Boatphone you make me laugh, do you know what a non-biased opinion even is? YOu spout the party line and then wonder why people thrash you for it. Maybe start thinking for yourself and stop allowing yourself to be brainwashed by blind patriotism. IF you think the US is the "Free'est" land in the world maybe you should try leaving your country for a while and see that other countries have it much better than the US. Yes it is possible for another country to be better than the US.

Why is Iran any different than the US? They see threats surrounding them and want to be able to defend themselves against aggression. If you stripped the US of it's WMD capabilities would you be fighting as many wars as you are? No, because you wouldn't have your deterence to keep the big boys out. So Iran wanting to have a deterrence to keep the US and Israel out is bad why? Oh that would screw up Cheney's plan for Haliburton dominance of the middle east.

All of you party-line, patriotism spewing Americans, it's time to do like the ostrich and pull your head out of the sand and realize that the US you so blindly cheer for isn't all it's cracked up to be.

hey DEEZNUTs if u could choose between America and North Korea as free which will it be?, i wish i could go to North Korea to experience their freedom.