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Bush, at end of roll, denies abuses, claims america promotes "freedom"

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posted on May, 31 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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"It's an absurd allegation. The United States is a country that promotes freedom around the world," Bush said of the Amnesty International report that compared Guantanamo to a Soviet-era gulag.

In a Rose Garden news conference, Bush defiantly stood by his domestic policy agenda while defending his actions abroad. He repeatedly pledged to press ahead — "The president has got to push, he's got to keep leading" — despite mounting criticism.

With the death toll climbing daily in
Iraq, he said that nation's fledging government is "plenty capable" of defeating insurgents whose attacks on Iraqi civilians and U.S. soldiers have intensified.

Bush spoke after separate air crashes killed four American and four Italian troops in Iraq. The governor of Anbar province, taken hostage three weeks ago, was killed during clashes between U.S. forces and the insurgents who abducted him.

Standing in the sun, sweat beading on his forehead, Bush said the job of the U.S. forces in Iraq is to help train the nation's own forces to defeat insurgents.

"I think the Iraqi people dealt the insurgents a serious blow when we had the elections," Bush said. "In other words, what the insurgents fear is democracy because democracy is the opposition of their vision."

On another foreign policy issue, Bush shot back at critics who suggest his diplomatic approach to
North Korea is allowing the communist regime to expand its nuclear program. "If diplomacy is the wrong approach, I guess that means military. That's how I view it as either diplomacy or military. I am for the diplomacy approach," he said. "And for those who say we ought to be using our military to stop a problem, I would say that while all options are on the table, we've still got a ways to go to solve this diplomatically."


news.yahoo.com...;_ylt=AjfNfcUiWQTZKSxqNVjB37us0NUE;_ylu=X3o'___'A2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--


Link to Amnesty : web.amnesty.org...




posted on May, 31 2005 @ 02:42 PM
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President Bush is actually saying that comparing Guantanamo to a Soviet-era gulag is "an absurd allegation," and he is right.

Some media outlets are making claims that are ridiculous, exagerating and lying as they themselves try to further their agenda against this administration. How many times has the same media outlets been caught with their pants down and been shown they lied?.... plenty of times.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
President Bush is actually saying that comparing Guantanamo to a Soviet-era gulag is "an absurd allegation," and he is right.

Some media outlets are making claims that are ridiculous, exagerating and lying as they themselves try to further their agenda against this administration. How many times has the same media outlets been caught with their pants down and been shown they lied?.... plenty of times.


What you're basically saying is that the Amnesty report is wrong. Got any proof ?



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by Moretti
..............
What you're basically saying is that the Amnesty report is wrong. Got any proof ?


Do you have any idea what happened in the "soviet-era gulags"?

I don't think you do know to make such a claim...

and when Amnesty international makes so idiotic comments such as this.


Political armed groups and criminal gangs, principally those engaged in drug trafficking, had an increasing impact on people’s fundamental rights. Poverty and discrimination affected millions of people, particularly the most vulnerable groups – women, children, indigenous people and Afro-descendant communities.


You have to wonder exactly what in the world Amnesty international is thinking about to make a claim such as this one.

They are making it sound as if drug trafficking, "political armed groups and criminals gangs" were doing something good for the people... they are not mentioning what kind of impact it is, but claim they "had an increasing impact on people’s fundamental rights."

Right, as if criminal gangs and political armed groups are good for the people, such as what happens in Colombia when rebels kidnap people from "los pueblos" to get ransom...if the family of these people can't pay, the kidnapped are dead. That's the kind of impact these groups are having on the rights of people.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Do you have any idea what happened in the "soviet-era gulags"?

I don't think you do know to make such a claim...

and when Amnesty international makes so idiotic comments such as this.


Political armed groups and criminal gangs, principally those engaged in drug trafficking, had an increasing impact on people’s fundamental rights. Poverty and discrimination affected millions of people, particularly the most vulnerable groups – women, children, indigenous people and Afro-descendant communities.


You have to wonder exactly what in the world Amnesty international is thinking about to make a claim such as this one.

They are making it sound as if drug trafficking, "political armed groups and criminals gangs" were doing something good for the people... they are not mentioning what kind of impact it is, but claim they "had an increasing impact on people’s fundamental rights."

Right, as if criminal gangs and political armed groups are good for the people, such as what happens in Colombia when rebels kidnap people from "los pueblos" to get ransom...if the family of these people can't pay, the kidnapped are dead. That's the kind of impact these groups are having on the rights of people.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by Muaddib]



20.000 murders each year in the US, mass impoverishment and lack of health care already are what Washington would call a "low-intensity conflict".

Amnesty is in every right to make it's claims, especially since theyre working methods are highly scientific. Typically leaders from Apartheid countries and dictators would call Amnesty reports "outrageous", not "democratically" elected leaders.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 06:57 PM
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North Korea IS NOT COMMUNIST !!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If locking people up in a prison indefinately without giving them the right to a trial and a lawyer isn't abusive I don't know
what is... Not to mention these people are aloud no contact with the outside world...

The US is the most hypocritical nation on earth - put yourself in one of the
prisoners positions...

You were fighting against a corrupt government in some country, you got caught by foreign soldiers, removed from the
country you were caught in, and transported to an illegal instilation (aka Guantannamo)...

Regardless of wether you are guilty or not, you should have to right to a trial so that a democratic process can decide
if you are infact actually guilty...

Guantannamo is exactly like the Gulag - so it isn't widely known, and offically accepted, that prisoners are tortured and
abused - who is going to tell me it doesn't happen at all?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And if the US government cared so much about promoting freedom and democracy - why have they done nothing to
solve the problem of institutionalised racism, which is impossible to argue against, oh thats right they need racism!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Freedom doesn't come out of the end of a barrel...

[edit on 31-5-2005 by ghostsoldier]



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 07:04 PM
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The Russian "Gulag's" were forced labor camps where people were sent to be worked to death. Also, one could be sent there for no reason. They were death camps. To compare this to U.S. prisons like "Gitmo", is offensive!!!



If you do not understand this, I feel sorry for you.


[edit on 31-5-2005 by Boatphone]



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 07:18 PM
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Gulagher's Melon Show


Originally posted by Moretti
20.000 murders each year in the US, mass impoverishment and lack of health care already are what Washington would call a "low-intensity conflict".

If you're going to go around spouting this sort of rhetoric, you're painting yourself into a corner.

If you can't tell the difference between a prison camp and domestic problems that plague every nation on earth, there's no common ground to work with.

If you have a legitimate gripe, reasonable people will listen to you.

But if you don't have a legitimate gripe, and make mountains from molehills, only unreasonable people will listen to you. And even they will probably not agree.

The path you walk is yours to choose.

Choose wisely.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by Boatphone
The Russian "Gulag's" were forced labor camps where people were sent to
be worked to death. Also, one could be sent there for no reason. They were
death camps. To compare this to U.S. prisons like "Gitmo", is offensive!!!


If you do not understand this, I feel sorry for you.



Forced labour camps you say - what about the fact that wardens all around
the 'United States' are now 'selling off' their prisoners as virtual slave labour...
A new slave-class is emerging, and all those who cant see that happening
should probably pull their finger out...

As for being sent to gaol (jail) for no reason, how about asking why there is
millions of black african americans thrown into gaol (jail) for stealing money
from the rich, when its the rich peoples fault that many black folk are forced
into a life of crime?

- And how many people have died by 'long arm of the law' for charges that
never got to see the inside of a courtroom?

Just because Americas prisons and Detention Centres are slightly above
the Russian 'gulags' - does this then make what the United States does any
better?!?! - Using this kind of logic is what a 5-year old does...

"Waahhh! I dont to bad things - look at what Stalinist Russia did 30 years
ago..." - This makes me


Two wrongs dont make a right? - Or did growing up infront of a TV screen
not teach you that? - The Gulags are in the past Guantannamo is the now
and we must do everything we cant to close these virtual death-camps.

Anyone who can't see the similarities between the Gulag and Guantannamo
aren't looking hard enough - and should go back to their secluded lives that
revolve around eating McDonalds and watching FoxNews...

[edit on 31-5-2005 by ghostsoldier]



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 07:23 PM
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Just because they arent working in guantanamo, doesnt make it alright.

They are being UNJUSTLY held, abused, tortured and there religion defied.

THE USA knows this is illegial, but with enough money, enough dodgy judges and lawyers, they found very very small loop hole.

USA - hypocrit

What did bush say, they attacked us because we are the brightest beacon of freedom?

more lke your the brightest beacon at REMOVING freedoms.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 07:56 PM
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It is Al-Queda SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to claim abuse if held captive.

Just like it was SOP for Democrats to cry voter fraud in last election.

The ACLU and Amnesty International like to pick on the US. Who else are they going to pick on. China, Russia, North Korea, Iran? Give me a freaking break. It's all about outrage to receive donations, how else would these organizations survive?

I propose a poll of all detainees in Gitmo...

Would you rather stay here at Gitmo, where the US feeds you 3 meals a day and also PROVIDES you with a Koran. (Yes, Korans are issued by the US to the detainees.) or...

Would you like to be transferred to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia or some messed up Islamic country. Or better yet would you rather have been in Saddam controlled prison when he was in power?



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
Just because they arent working in guantanamo, doesnt make it alright.

They are being UNJUSTLY held, abused, tortured and there religion defied.

THE USA knows this is illegial, but with enough money, enough dodgy judges and lawyers, they found very very small loop hole.

USA - hypocrit

What did bush say, they attacked us because we are the brightest beacon of freedom?

more lke your the brightest beacon at REMOVING freedoms.


You have no clue what you are talking about. A day at "Gitmo" is a walk in the park compared to the Russian Gulags or being jailed in basicly any other country. The terrorists there are even shown which way east is so they can pray properly. Get a clue!!!!

ALSO, the United States of America has brought more freedoms to the world than any other conutry ever!!

Try taking a history class...



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:11 PM
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Im not saying Gitmo is worse than these russian gulags or what ever.

How manyyrs has it been?
And none of them have been properly trialed yet?

How about we throw you in a jail, in a foreign country for years, without visiting rights, without a trial.

woudl you still consider this fair?



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:14 PM
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Contextual Analysis


Originally posted by GlobalDisorder
woudl you still consider this fair?

If I was captured in a combat zone after shooting at the people who captured me, maybe I would.

Maybe.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:22 PM
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Stop arguing semantics.

Yes the gulags were worse then guantanimo is that however is irelevant.
The gulgags were better then the nazi death camps does that make them better by default? Ask yourselves this if you were innocent of a crime would you want to be put under these conditions? Would you want to be abused like this? If your sons were falsely arrested would you be so quick to write off treatment like this as acceptable policy?

Besides you apoligists still arent taking into account our rendition policies. Youd rather argue semantics. "Its okay because we're not the ones ripping peoples toe nails off our allies do it for us so we don't have to." In the neo-con world that makes sense.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:24 PM
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"Freedom, liberty, democracy".

The catch-cries of freedom fighters, workers, slaves, intelligentsia, and the middle classes everywhere....

... and of the pack of liars and criminals in the Bush administration bent on war profiteering and reshaping global affairs for the benefit of a few corrupt cronies, at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. And a few pesky foreigners shut away for life.

"Freedom, liberty, democracy"... thank God these still exist in the world, even though they no longer exist in the good ol' US of A.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by MaskedAvatar]



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
"Freedom, liberty, democracy".

The catch-cries of freedom fighters, workers, slaves, intelligentsia, and the middle classes everywhere....

... and of the pack of liars and criminals in the Bush administration bent on war profiteering and reshaping global affairs for the benefit of a few corrupt cronies, at the cost of tens of thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars. And a few pesky foreigners shut away for life.

"Freedom, liberty, democracy"... thank God these still exist in the world, even though they no longer exist in the good ol' US of A.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by MaskedAvatar]


Please list a country that has spread more freedoms around the world than the U.S. / Or list a country that is more "free".

Also, keep in mind that the terrorists in "Gitmo" hate freedom more than anyone so maybe their happy there.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:32 PM
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The Sound Of Freedom


Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
"Freedom, liberty, democracy"... thank God these still exist in the world, even though they no longer exist in the good ol' US of A.

Tiresome as it can become, as long as I can read and hear things like this, I will sleep well tonight.

In fact, the constant drone of dissatisfaction tends to become a sedative unto itself.

When the voices of dissent fall silent, then I will know that freedom has truly been lost.



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by Majic
The Sound Of Freedom


Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
"Freedom, liberty, democracy"... thank God these still exist in the world, even though they no longer exist in the good ol' US of A.

Tiresome as it can become, as long as I can read and hear things like this, I will sleep well tonight.

In fact, the constant drone of dissatisfaction tends to become a sedative unto itself.

When the voices of dissent fall silent, then I will know that freedom has truly been lost.


I for one would rather not wait until that point to notice things are going wrong.

[edit on 31-5-2005 by boogyman]



posted on May, 31 2005 @ 08:43 PM
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Please list a country that has spread more freedoms around the world than the U.S. / Or list a country that is more "free".



Freedom is not "spread" - that is called cultural imperialism.

I would suggest to you that if you explore the civil liberties, trade policies, and attitudes to diversity of the majority of nations in the western world and other countries that are not dictatorships in developing regions, then you would find a rather long list of countries that are more "free".

Freedom is a catchcry and a myth until you know how it can be measured.




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