Originally posted by eudaimonia
Talk about slander! Hypocrisy!

Hypocrisy? How so? Do not state me as being a hypocrite without even justifying your claim!

First of all, "posting knowingly false information"? Wrong.

Yes, you are posting false information. I only wonder if you know this or not.

Second, why not take this opportunity to prove to the world that Freemasonry has absolutely no roots in the Occult, Witchcraft, Satanism, Sex Rituals, Secret Societies, and that it's not affliated with Skull and Bones at Yale University?

YOU are the one making the claims. The burden of proof rests on YOUR shoulders. This is a typical troll tactic, and will not work here. "Prove your mother IS NOT a whore!" Nice try.

And by the way, I don't know HOW you can assume that Freemasonry is associated with a fraternity at Yale. Skull and Bones has nothing to do with Freemasonry, you need to start criticizing your sources just a little bit before believeing whatever you read.

I don't post information unless it's backed up with a source, and maybe I'm going crazy here but usually when a high official that is heavily experienced in a particular body of work or practice for a long time and explains their view on the matter, it is something that is nearly 100% of the time, a VERY CREDIBLE and LEGITIMATE way of understanding the nature of any subject matter.

You took a "high official's" quotes and COMPLETELY TOOK THEM OUT OF CONTEXT!!! That is not FACTUAL information, that is not a real SOURCE! Geez man, get over yourself!

And don't slick your way of threatening me with your lame "Uh oh, you have violated ATS T&C", and dodge your way out of this.

Slick my way out of what? Dodge my way out of huh? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I am being very direct with you, and have answered all your questions above. You are posting very false information, and we will not let you get away with it.

With all do respect, eudaimonia, your source is very misinformed, and that fact that you are using his information second hand, meas that you are trusting his judgement 100%. Therefore don't present sources like that and expect everyone to believe it is true, most of us follow up and read the source, to figure out if it is credible.

You have yet to refute all of my evidence that I posted on the first page of this board, that basically takes all of the air out of your post's sails.

Maybe if we were to start addressing the real arguments and issues, instead of worrying about what your next post is going to claim as truth, we would be able to discuss this as a group.

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
eudaimonia's source, Dr. David L. Carrico. Biased? Indeed.

There you have it, he is a church based mason hater. Extremely biased, and opinionated, doesn't really use evidence. This kind of source wouldn't fly in a high school history paper that's for sure.

Good job researching the source, Horus! I'd vote you for way above if I had any votes left.

Oh wait, I do:

You have voted Eyeofhorus for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

What you fail to realize is that Pike makes a statement about language in M&D. He shows us how meaning is lost in translation. When we translate latin into english, there are certain aspects that aren't taken into consideration, like context for instance. Lucifer is a word, with multiple meanings, like most words in a dictionatry. The definition you use is not the first meaning of the word. It is a secondary, definiton brought to life by the bible. In MASONRY, which I might add is the main focus of this discussion, Lucifer refers to the symbology of venus, and the ideas it represents. There is no arguing this point any further, because you are arguing outside the boundaries of discussion. Non-topical argument.

If you want to prove to me that lucifer means satan, that is an idea that is unique to the text of the bible, and not masonic text. Therefore it is a great injustice and logical fallacy to cross apply this definiton.

You may be right that IN THE BIBLE lucifer menas satan, but it still doesn't prove that MASONS, worship SATAN. That is making a leap too far. It merely means, that masons hold symbolism in Venus, the symbol of female, etc.



[edit on 1-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

[edit on 1-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

ok ill agree to that. i was simply saying that it was wierd that pike condemned the reference of lucifer to a spirit of darkness, if he was talking about venus.

i had no idea that venus was commonly referred to as darkness or spirit of darkness. but im not versed in masonic text. sorry to offend.

No offense taken, it is sometimes a hard concept to wrap your brain around. I just get a little frustrated when people cite Pike's work, when they obviously haven't read it. The reason I get so frustrated...It is 861 pages long, and I have read it. So it pains me to see somebody that hasn't read the book in its entirety and then has the audactiy to misquote and misinterperit it. Thankfully you dempnstrate the capacity to understand the nature of pike's text.

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
No offense taken, it is sometimes a hard concept to wrap your brain around. I just get a little frustrated when people cite Pike's work, when they obviously haven't read it. The reason I get so frustrated...It is 861 pages long, and I have read it. So it pains me to see somebody that hasn't read the book in its entirety and then has the audactiy to misquote and misinterperit it. Thankfully you dempnstrate the capacity to understand the nature of pike's text.

You know, I've come to the conclusion that is impossible for me to have any type of discussion with any mason because here's the deal: I believe strongly in one thing and you believe strongly in another, and we will keep disagreeing until the earth dies out and even then that will still not be the end of our conflict. You could present all the information you need to show me how Freemasonry is ALL GOOD and that I'm here to accept it all. Doesn't work that way. It especially doesn't work when you won't even accept THE POSSIBILITY on the information I've layed out, and that is the wrong approach. Myself, an EX-Christian thought that Christianity was all there was to believe in, but then I realized later in life that it is better to keep an open mind and to trust in things that are positive for the mind and spirit, without being fixated on a particular "religion". Believe me when I say this, there is a larger crowd behind me than yours that believes what you practice is NOT ALL GOOD, as the signs of your practice point to one thing: a deceptive illusion progressing into a dangerous and immoral agenda around the world. Especially in many Political Movements and World Events. It is unfortunate how I see a trend of behavior with Masons that seem almost childish, which many times unmasks itself into a superiority complex. Let's not waste each other's time because we will go nowhere. Good Luck in your travels, and may your eyes be opened one day.

Originally posted by eudaimonia
You know, I've come to the conclusion that ... Freemasonry is ALL GOOD. ... especially ... when ... Christianity was all there was to believe in, ... trust in things that are positive for the mind and spirit...

Believe me when I say this ... what you practice is ... ALL GOOD...

Good Luck in your travels...

Amazing what you can get out of something if you view it selectively, isn't it?

Lucifer is not God. He is a fallen angel.

Originally posted by eudaimonia

Originally posted by Eyeofhorus
No offense taken, it is sometimes a hard concept to wrap your brain around. I just get a little frustrated when people cite Pike's work, when they obviously haven't read it. The reason I get so frustrated...It is 861 pages long, and I have read it. So it pains me to see somebody that hasn't read the book in its entirety and then has the audactiy to misquote and misinterperit it. Thankfully you dempnstrate the capacity to understand the nature of pike's text.

You know, I've come to the conclusion that is impossible for me to have any type of discussion with any mason because here's the deal...*Snizzz-ip*

Another bad assumption.

I am not a mason, nor am I a christain. Used to be a christian , but not anymore. I just get a little interested in whan somebody begins to post outright lies and slander about a group or organization that have already been posted by somebody on this website. Just denying ignorance is all, don't mind me...

The truth is you have no idea where to begin. So stop pretending like you have read Pikes, M&D, because you haven't. And If you want to discuss the evidence I posted, or the ideas that you seem to be struggling to grasp, that is why we a re all here. We are not here to waste our time arguing with you, because obviously you are not here to learn.

You need to start seeing masonry for what it is. A fraternity, and an all around harmless organization. That's all, they are small fish. If you really want to argue about secret societies, why not bring up a society whose information, is not completely published. Like Skull and Bones.

The reality is, I don't care if you learn anything, that 's your choice to believe something ridiculous, just don't get all uppidy when everyone tells you it is bunk. I'm am not here to foce anybody to accept my point of view, but I will always back up my theories with evidence if requested. Apparently you cannot produce any. As a former debator, I know that wouldn't fly. First off, I cannot see how you could "win" an argument at all. Secondly, arguments aren't about winning, they are about information and discussion, If you cannot do either one of these, then I don't know what to tell you...




[edit on 1-6-2005 by Eyeofhorus]

Originally posted by eudaimonia
Second, why not take this opportunity to prove to the world that Freemasonry has absolutely no roots in the Occult, Witchcraft, Satanism, Sex Rituals, Secret Societies, and that it's not affliated with Skull and Bones at Yale University?

Why should anyone disprove something that hasn't been reasonably demonstrated?? The mason's use a star, sometimes five, sometimes six pointed. So what? Albert Pike liked mysticism and esoteric 'magicK'. Again, so what? He interpreted the symbols of masonry and christianity into a mystical meaning, a 'theosophic' meaning possibly. That hardly means that masonry and christianity are theosophic and mystical and 'non-christian'. Why is the 'masonic cross' a penetrating phallus, but the cross that jesus died on not a sex act??? Symbols have no meaning on their own. They only have meaning when they are interpreted, and they are only interpreted by people who look at them in a certain context. Albert Pike brought an esoteric context. What kind of context do you think poster 'Trinityman' brings to it eh? Why is his interpretation less 'real' than that of Pike?? Also, why is the interpretation of these symbols by masonry at large inferior to that of Pike?? You judge it so because that is how you want to view it. You think masonry is an evil witchcraft religion, a mystery religion. You are judging the things that you think supports that as 'accurate', and the rest as folly.

high official that is heavily experienced in a particular body of work or practice for a long time and explains their view on the matter, it is something that is nearly 100% of the time, a VERY CREDIBLE and LEGITIMATE way of understanding the nature of any subject matter.

What makes Albert Pike such a credible source? What makes him more credible than actual recognized 33rd Degree masons or resepected masonic researchers who completely disagree that masonry is a mystery religion????


And, again, I haven't noticed if this was addressed and forgive me if that's an error on my part, but, the people you originally quoted, only, what two or three of them were actual masons. Levy and Blatvasky, they're not masons, and have nothing to do with it.


Also, I am utterly confused. Why is the Raelian Cult 'acceptable' to you, but masonry must be evil? Simply because of Pike and their use of a star??? What if the Raelians adopted a star as their symbol, since they are an alien cult?


Also, you stated that most mystery religions are satan cults. This is preposterous. Most mystery religions were around long before the New Testament Existed, and long before the torah was introduced to their respective regions. What makes the Elusian Mysteries, for example, Satanic??? Mere usage of symbols that in jewish mysticism are associated with satan??

Originally posted by eudaimonia
You could present all the information you need to show me how Freemasonry is ALL GOOD and that I'm here to accept it all. Doesn't work that way. It especially doesn't work when you won't even accept THE POSSIBILITY on the information I've layed out, and that is the wrong approach.

Would you accept what we say if we told you the sky was green? Or that the Earth was a hexagon?

We don't accept what you say because we are masons and we know FOR A FACT that what you say is untrue. Plain and simple. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a matter of fact and a matter of doing. We are in the fraternity, and therefore we know how it works and what goes on. You do not because you are not a mason. And despite how much we tell you to the contrary, you still refuse to believe any of it. Well, that's your choice, but we know better.

Originally posted by eudaimonia

You know, I've come to the conclusion that is impossible for me to have any type of discussion with any mason because here's the deal: I believe strongly in one thing and you believe strongly in another, and we will keep disagreeing until the earth dies out and even then that will still not be the end of our conflict. You could present all the information you need to show me how Freemasonry is ALL GOOD and that I'm here to accept it all. Doesn't work that way. It especially doesn't work when you won't even accept THE POSSIBILITY on the information I've layed out, and that is the wrong approach.

You know what.. I'm not a Mason and if you could show me proof (Facts) that they are up to no good I'd have to believe you. But I can't accept the possibility on say the quotes you posted to start this thread because I KNOW some of them are false.

Blavatsky as a woman could not possibly be a high ranking Mason.

Levi was a Master Mason for a few months. He quit because there was an anti-Catholic mood with the lodge he belonged to.

The A.E. Waite "quote" is wrong because the quote comes from a translation he did, it was not his work. Not to mention when the Golden Dawn broke up the branch he led was mostly christian mysticism. I just can't see him as a devil worshiper.

That's 3 out of 5 people you quoted. Not knowing that much about the others I can only use what I do know about and assume that the other quotes have similar problems.

What would you do in my place? Shoot I'd respect your position more if you said "Ok I guess those aren't good examples, but I still don't trust them, let me dig up some more info."

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
compelling argument ??? The picture is the argument. Does every meeting hall for the masons have to have its mark on it, publicly?

Why not? Why shouldn't the place where Masons meet have thir insignia on it? Do you consider the fact that some Masons travel and choose to visit lodges in towns they are visiting? How else would you expect them to know which building they meet in? Are you serious?

Or how about dam near every town and city have the masonic mark on it. You know, the welcome sign. My theories have not been shot down. In fact, they are gaining steam, but that is not in my hands.

I dunno, the dam near my town doesn't have any marks on it, Masonic or otherwise.

But seriously, again, this is for traveling Masons. All the sign says is welcome from lodge so and so, and usually has the meeting times posted on it. Yeah, real secret.

And as for my covert agenda, nothing covert about it. I believe What my last, real, president said about the subject, as is pointed out above, and reiterated in my signature.

Yeah no kidding. It's quite obvious what your agenda is. And ASE, come now, do you really believe those are JFK's words?! Please. Every president has speech writers, and they say exactly what is prepared for them. Those are likely (notice the room I leave for myself should I be incorrect ) no more Kennedy's words than "To be, or not to be" are mine.

I have seen the evidence first hand against freemasonry. But I wouldnt expect you to believe anything that your worshipfull master hasnt taught you.

I have no Worshipful Master, as I am not a Mason, and what I know and what I speak of regarding Masonry is of MY OWN research, on BOTH sides of the argument (yes, I have read all the anti-Masonic propaganda, and I still say it's bull#), and talking to Masons myself, and reading and studying. Anyone who takes a scholarly approach to Freemasonry is bound to see the truth, but, like you, some people choose to wallow in ignorance and spread lies.

"tuck tail and run "??? You seem to continually miss my point because you refuse to "Look outside" of the masonic box. What is rediculious is me waisting my time trying to get you to consider other possiblities.

Yes, you do tuck tail and run. Furthermore, you are wasting your time because I beat you to it. I already looked "outside the Masonic box" and what I saw there was rampant paranoia, hatred, ignorance, and misunderstanding, not to mention blatant hipocrasy and slander. No thanks, I'll take the road of the worthy truth seeker over the cowardly liar any day.

Freemasonry isnt a frat as eyeofhorus would have you believe. It is a mind control matrix, a system, a platform for chaos and ignorance. And, a block between humanity, and God.

To quote Al: "I don't think so, Tim."

The All Seeing Eye is watching you.

Is it now? Well at least we agree on something. Too bad you twist that to be a bad thing. To me, it means that God sees my actions and my deeds, and I can hide nothing from Him. Nothing wrong with that, and actually it makes me feel better because He is watching out for me, and certain recent developments in my life are living, breathing proof of that. *smirks*

The evidence is mounting every day.

Whatever you say, Judge Judy.

And every day the world inches closer to the ultimate truth. There is an old saying that goes something like this " A lie will last for a time, but the truth will last forever". The time for the "secret society" is almost up.

*shudders* Am I supposed to be afraid? So spooky! So ominous!

What a joke.

[edit on 6/1/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
compelling argument ??? The picture is the argument. Does every meeting hall for the masons have to have its mark on it, publicly? Or how about dam near every town and city have the masonic mark on it. You know, the welcome sign. My theories have not been shot down. In fact, they are gaining steam, but that is not in my hands.

Your theories aren't gaining anything but laughs. Yes, a building where masons meet should have the sign, so people know they can go there if they need masonic assistance. What's so bad about that?

I have seen the evidence first hand against freemasonry. But I wouldnt expect you to believe anything that your worshipfull master hasnt taught you.

That's funny considering that Axeman is not a mason. But regardless, worshipful masters dont teach anything. They simply administer the lodge. You, on the other hand, have not seen any such evidence. If you have, why have you not posted it here for all of us to see?

"tuck tail and run "??? You seem to continually miss my point because you refuse to "Look outside" of the masonic box. What is rediculious is me waisting my time trying to get you to consider other possiblities.

Again, Axeman is not a mason. So the fact that you say this is downright laughable.

Freemasonry isnt a frat as eyeofhorus would have you believe. It is a mind control matrix, a system, a platform for chaos and ignorance. And, a block between humanity, and God. Take your binders off and look up! The All Seeing Eye is watching you.

You're right, it's not a "frat". It's a FRATERNITY, a benevolent organization. nothing you claimed has EVER been true, why do you even bother? You need to take your blinders off and look up. Do you REALLY think that millions of men throughout time have been deceived by such an organization? You really think that a small group of anti-masons are the ONLY ONES that know the truth? And everyone else is an idiot, being fooled and deceived into doing things they dont want to do!?!? Come on! Give us a break!

There is an old ss something like this " A lie will last for a time, but the truth will last forever".

You think YOU will be the one to bring Freemasonry down? You think that you have some secial knowledge of the fraternity that NOBODY else has? You're only kidding yourself...

Although, you finally said something true! That is exactly why Freemasonry has lasted for so long: because the truth lasts forever.


[edit on 1-6-2005 by sebatwerk]